Alright, well, it seems that this thread has turned into a "dream" thread, meant to take all of you away from the present reality that we all are living in. So, as such, I'll stop commenting on it. However, I'll suggest that anybody who wishes to deal with issues that will be affecting all of us in the real world, feel free to come back to reality at anytime.
All we are saying is give peace a chance
- Thread starter selfactivated
- Start date
Interesting topic. 
I'm wearing my asbestos suit here making this reply ....
Sounds good in theory, selfactivated, but in practice it doesn't work that way. We can, on a personal level, do the small things that bring joy to us and those around us. That, imho, is what elevates us above the other mammals.
But underneath it all, we are predators. Top of the food chain. I used to subscribe to the theory, "The meek shall inherit the earth ... because the strong will trample them into it" but have modified that hard line philosophy over the years. I still believe in social Darwanism on a global level, but feel that I don't have to bear that out on a personal level. The evolution goes on with or without my small contribution.
I'm nice to folks too. I enjoy the vast range of people I am blessed enough to encounter. I love to get to know a bit about what's behind the social mask of people. I am honestly interested and people respond well to that. I enjoy life and those I share it with, but I have no illusions that humans are somehow exempt from the laws of nature.
We're thinking meat. Animals. We have instincts and drives that are beyond our control. Sure it would be nice to drop the borders, share the world wealth, play nice with everyone, but that kind of Utopia just can never work with human beings. We can't go against who we are. Remember the story about the turtle and the scorpion? "Because it's my nature" is the punch line.
I don't see this as a failing. I see it as a strength. When we can overcome that self serving predatory urge, we are elevated spiritually on an individual level. When we can empower the weak, serve our fellow humans, do some good, it makes us more than our baser beginnings.
Trouble is, we can't rely on everyone to do that. There's always going to be predatory people who revel in the role. And I, for one, will not sit back and become a willing meal for those people. I believe that helping others consists of teaching them to defend themselves rather than doing the defending for them. That's the only way we can grow within the laws of social Darwanism.
The strong do survive. The weak and the martyrs may be remembered, but they aren't enjoying a walk in the sunshine or a good meal or a piece of beautiful music. I'd rather not be one of them.
Ok ... fire away
I'm wearing my asbestos suit here making this reply ....Sounds good in theory, selfactivated, but in practice it doesn't work that way. We can, on a personal level, do the small things that bring joy to us and those around us. That, imho, is what elevates us above the other mammals.
But underneath it all, we are predators. Top of the food chain. I used to subscribe to the theory, "The meek shall inherit the earth ... because the strong will trample them into it" but have modified that hard line philosophy over the years. I still believe in social Darwanism on a global level, but feel that I don't have to bear that out on a personal level. The evolution goes on with or without my small contribution.
I'm nice to folks too. I enjoy the vast range of people I am blessed enough to encounter. I love to get to know a bit about what's behind the social mask of people. I am honestly interested and people respond well to that. I enjoy life and those I share it with, but I have no illusions that humans are somehow exempt from the laws of nature.
We're thinking meat. Animals. We have instincts and drives that are beyond our control. Sure it would be nice to drop the borders, share the world wealth, play nice with everyone, but that kind of Utopia just can never work with human beings. We can't go against who we are. Remember the story about the turtle and the scorpion? "Because it's my nature" is the punch line.
I don't see this as a failing. I see it as a strength. When we can overcome that self serving predatory urge, we are elevated spiritually on an individual level. When we can empower the weak, serve our fellow humans, do some good, it makes us more than our baser beginnings.
Trouble is, we can't rely on everyone to do that. There's always going to be predatory people who revel in the role. And I, for one, will not sit back and become a willing meal for those people. I believe that helping others consists of teaching them to defend themselves rather than doing the defending for them. That's the only way we can grow within the laws of social Darwanism.
The strong do survive. The weak and the martyrs may be remembered, but they aren't enjoying a walk in the sunshine or a good meal or a piece of beautiful music. I'd rather not be one of them.
Ok ... fire away
Re: RE: All we are saying is give peace a chance
Dreams are the stuff of hope and for some of us, hope drives action. Nothing wrong with dreams if they impel us to make change.HonestAbe said:
Naci_Sey Thank you for that kind comment it made my heart swell
Cosmo said:
And you look Maaaavalous in it too may I add.
Ok......first things first.....social Darwanism? I think that means we evolve as a society, stairstepping up? The strongest surving. Is that right?
You spoke about personal values, being kind, doing for others (like volunteering your time here ). If I read you right you said you enjoy doing that and it makes you personally feel good. But in your opinion the "world value" is basically "Dog eat Dog" I may have missed it but I think that was it in basics.
When you do something kind for another person how do you think that person feels? (retoricle ) I would think pretty good. I know that your kindness this morning set my outlook for the day (thank you by the way ) I in turn called a friend and sang her happy birthday (LOL poor thing Im SOOOO off key!) She in turn was kinder to her hubby (he owes me one )Now on top of all that as I was at the Pharmacy I started a conversation with a woman that wasnt feeling well, and while I was waiting and we talked she laughed. When she walked out of the store she was smiling and stood a bit taller. Do You see a pattern? Ripple effect?
Now, When the "norm" is kindness and the [not norm] is the A-Typical (negative) behavior doesnt that fit into your formula? Its still "darwism" but with Positive (kind) behavior as the majority (stronger). In my heart I just cant believe we are animals (not in the way you meant) We are cerebral and emotional beings (meaning we follow basic emotions Love/Fear) When we consciously choose a higher thought or feeling we are choosing to be the stronger.
wow I think my brain hurts LOL
Thank you for that kind comment it made my heart swell Cosmo said:
And you look Maaaavalous in it too may I add.
Ok......first things first.....social Darwanism? I think that means we evolve as a society, stairstepping up? The strongest surving. Is that right?
You spoke about personal values, being kind, doing for others (like volunteering your time here ). If I read you right you said you enjoy doing that and it makes you personally feel good. But in your opinion the "world value" is basically "Dog eat Dog" I may have missed it but I think that was it in basics.
When you do something kind for another person how do you think that person feels? (retoricle
) I would think pretty good. I know that your kindness this morning set my outlook for the day (thank you by the way ) I in turn called a friend and sang her happy birthday (LOL poor thing Im SOOOO off key!) She in turn was kinder to her hubby (he owes me one )Now on top of all that as I was at the Pharmacy I started a conversation with a woman that wasnt feeling well, and while I was waiting and we talked she laughed. When she walked out of the store she was smiling and stood a bit taller. Do You see a pattern? Ripple effect?Now, When the "norm" is kindness and the [not norm] is the A-Typical (negative) behavior doesnt that fit into your formula? Its still "darwism" but with Positive (kind) behavior as the majority (stronger). In my heart I just cant believe we are animals (not in the way you meant) We are cerebral and emotional beings (meaning we follow basic emotions Love/Fear) When we consciously choose a higher thought or feeling we are choosing to be the stronger.
wow I think my brain hurts LOL
RE: All we are saying is
selfactivated ... I understand your point and applaud your efforts on a personal basis, but I maintain that we are predatory mamals and we cannot escape all that comes with that.
I agree the ripple effect has an impact, over time, on small subsections of society. While it can indeed make life more joyful for individuals, you're never going to change human nature in any significant way. Nice to think it could happen, but I personally don't believe it.
As for your quote, Jay, it kinda assumes we buy what the bible is selling. Again, I personally, do not. It's a good read if you're stuck in a hotel with no access to TV, but I certainly don't find it offers up logical arguments that would influence my life.
I think everyone should play nice. But they don't. *shrug* Then again, if we all agreed, what would we fight about here at CC??
selfactivated ... I understand your point and applaud your efforts on a personal basis, but I maintain that we are predatory mamals and we cannot escape all that comes with that.
I agree the ripple effect has an impact, over time, on small subsections of society. While it can indeed make life more joyful for individuals, you're never going to change human nature in any significant way. Nice to think it could happen, but I personally don't believe it.
As for your quote, Jay, it kinda assumes we buy what the bible is selling. Again, I personally, do not. It's a good read if you're stuck in a hotel with no access to TV, but I certainly don't find it offers up logical arguments that would influence my life.
I think everyone should play nice. But they don't. *shrug* Then again, if we all agreed, what would we fight about here at CC??
RE: All we are saying is
Talk about 'human nature' can present all kinds of problems. When I hear people saying that it's human nature to be this or that, I just shake my head. If challenged, I could point to someone who is an exception to the 'rule' and if I can find one, then it makes sense to think that there are many others.
Individual human beings are so different from one another. To suppose that there is a single fundamental 'nature' to all humans (such as 'predator') defies both logic and empirical evidence.
Talk about 'human nature' can present all kinds of problems. When I hear people saying that it's human nature to be this or that, I just shake my head. If challenged, I could point to someone who is an exception to the 'rule' and if I can find one, then it makes sense to think that there are many others.
Individual human beings are so different from one another. To suppose that there is a single fundamental 'nature' to all humans (such as 'predator') defies both logic and empirical evidence.
I don't think that people will ever live in peace and within the single border. There are certain circomstances that don't allow this to happen: people want more, there are always extremists in all nations and religions.
The more things human have, the more they want. One key element to peace is to sacrifie some of your disposition. If americans and canadians were to live within single border, one of the nations should abondon its political intitutions and currency. Who is ready?
People are divided into different religion and nationality. Even though you respect someone's else religion, this does not solve all the problem. There are people who see other religion as infidels. They restrict their followers to cooporate with other nations.
In order to achieve peace, one should sacrifie some of values s/he has. As long as people believe in different faith, they cannot form one nation under the same roof. These things restric humans to live in peace.
The more things human have, the more they want. One key element to peace is to sacrifie some of your disposition. If americans and canadians were to live within single border, one of the nations should abondon its political intitutions and currency. Who is ready?
People are divided into different religion and nationality. Even though you respect someone's else religion, this does not solve all the problem. There are people who see other religion as infidels. They restrict their followers to cooporate with other nations.
In order to achieve peace, one should sacrifie some of values s/he has. As long as people believe in different faith, they cannot form one nation under the same roof. These things restric humans to live in peace.
Jay said:
JonB2004 said:
This (with out sounding condincending cause im not meaning it that way) makes me sad. I feel fear in these posts. Why does Peace scare the hell out of people?
Cosmo I have a fantastic book I sugest you read and if you cant find a copy I'll lend you mine it's called 2150AD by Thea Alexander its an amazing book that has convinced be we are NOT Preditors we are cerebral and emotional beings. How are we to claim that we are evolved if we say we are preditors? dekhqonbacha I may be wrong because Im not real educated on all of this but the nomads (I believe) existed without any borders at all and if they didnt belong with on group or another they just moved on or started their own (Im sure someone will let me know if Im misinformed.
)
I know I keep sounding like mary poppins (actually I used to BE a nanny lol ) but I still dont see how one step at a time will hurt? Caring on the simplist levels and changing the attitudes of your "clan" one "clan" at a time. In the end ALL the "clans" will have the same BASE beliefs of allowing others their beliefs, atytitudes......whatever. Do you see my point (I just woke up so im a bit foggy please forgive me)
I don't think there can ever be peace. When you come to think about it, all the conflicts in this world are about power or money. As long as such things as power and money exist in this world, there will be people who would want to get more and more of both, and there will be others, who would fight to keep what they have and to get more, too. So I am afraid that borders will always exist and constant peace will remain a dream.
You'd be amazed. People get scared of people like me. They say Im not realistic and nutty. Which I am. Ive had family members try to put me away because I would go down into Providence and just talk (not preach) to hookers and drug addics. My ex when we first met got pissed because I was trying to help a deaf man get back together with his wife. And on and on. People seem afraid of kindness and peace. My friend helped me "get it" by explaining to me that people have a comfort zone in anger, victimhood, hatred.......so on, because its all they know. And when you think outside the box its strange at first.....scary.......(my hardest one is victimhood, when things are going to good I start a fight with friends.....they always love you no matter what ......well til reciently) and at times you run back to what you know ......fear. Not sure Im explaining this well, I do know that in my life the norm is becoming peace.
RE: All we are saying is
To Cosmo- SO negative!! Cheer up, a lot of things don't work on large scales, but can be made out of many tiny pieces- sometimes looking at the "big picture" can just be confusing. I should re-define "meek" for you perhaps (the way I'm sure it was intended in the bible and other places), since it is unfortunate you do not subscribe to the doctrine anymore, despite the inevitability of it. "meek" is NOT taken by me to mean "wallflowers" or people who don't have self-worth, but rather those whos self worth is very much based on the WHOLE of our earthly existence, and who judge their "success" on their treatment of the things and people around them... if EVERYONE on the planet truly "cared" about things on the most basic levels, things would be better, but it will take more than that, it will take these people (the "meek") sticking to their guns, as kindness can spread much more quickly than viciousness and with many more self-rewarding fruits- violence begets both winners and losers, TRUE kindness and understanding usually will produce nothing BUT winners- with this simple idea in mind, it is hard to see how one could EVER win out over the other. In the end, only thos who learn to live WITH both the planet AND their fellow man will be left, and if this never comes to pass, then the animal "meek" who are usually seen to be below us will be the only ones left (which is the grim interpretation but hell, it's true and it'd look like the pics on them jehovahs witness tracts minus the chubby children) and they, having no aspirations for control or power in a global or even regional sense will be left to live their lives in peace.... I'm personally gunning (pun sorta intended, just in an ironic sense) for the former, "humans smart themselves up and we all can get on with it" resolution
Like selfactivated said (and I truly believe) you have to apply the "think globally, act locally" mentality to things...
As mentioned before, and it is NO JOKE, good deeds can make EVERYONE win...
Ironically, it makes me sad to hear folks say "that's impossible" to a world where humans realize (in both the understanding AND the actual "making it so" sense) our true potential- there will always be some forms of disagreement, but that should be the extent of it, since disagreeing is natural for individuals, but if such a world is "impossible" then we as a race are most certailnly doomed, and I just can't believe that. I have seen to much to believe that folks worldwide honestly want this, and believe that it is the nature of certain systems to make it a reality (like the definition of economics, satisfying infinite greed with finite resources) Greed is NOT natural unless it is beneficial (like in a situation where after YEARS of starvation, a HUGE number of prey become available and the "consumers" attempt to preserve a larger-then-usual amount just in case said period of starvation comes back) or could be seen to be such... the examples of human greed I see almost every day are either born out of an artificially-created "starvation" or just plain stupidity/vanity.
Hope at leats some of this makes sense, don't lose hope Selfactivated, there's more of us out here
To Cosmo- SO negative!! Cheer up, a lot of things don't work on large scales, but can be made out of many tiny pieces- sometimes looking at the "big picture" can just be confusing. I should re-define "meek" for you perhaps (the way I'm sure it was intended in the bible and other places), since it is unfortunate you do not subscribe to the doctrine anymore, despite the inevitability of it. "meek" is NOT taken by me to mean "wallflowers" or people who don't have self-worth, but rather those whos self worth is very much based on the WHOLE of our earthly existence, and who judge their "success" on their treatment of the things and people around them... if EVERYONE on the planet truly "cared" about things on the most basic levels, things would be better, but it will take more than that, it will take these people (the "meek") sticking to their guns, as kindness can spread much more quickly than viciousness and with many more self-rewarding fruits- violence begets both winners and losers, TRUE kindness and understanding usually will produce nothing BUT winners- with this simple idea in mind, it is hard to see how one could EVER win out over the other. In the end, only thos who learn to live WITH both the planet AND their fellow man will be left, and if this never comes to pass, then the animal "meek" who are usually seen to be below us will be the only ones left (which is the grim interpretation but hell, it's true and it'd look like the pics on them jehovahs witness tracts minus the chubby children) and they, having no aspirations for control or power in a global or even regional sense will be left to live their lives in peace.... I'm personally gunning (pun sorta intended, just in an ironic sense) for the former, "humans smart themselves up and we all can get on with it" resolution
Like selfactivated said (and I truly believe) you have to apply the "think globally, act locally" mentality to things...
As mentioned before, and it is NO JOKE, good deeds can make EVERYONE win...
Ironically, it makes me sad to hear folks say "that's impossible" to a world where humans realize (in both the understanding AND the actual "making it so" sense) our true potential- there will always be some forms of disagreement, but that should be the extent of it, since disagreeing is natural for individuals, but if such a world is "impossible" then we as a race are most certailnly doomed, and I just can't believe that. I have seen to much to believe that folks worldwide honestly want this, and believe that it is the nature of certain systems to make it a reality (like the definition of economics, satisfying infinite greed with finite resources) Greed is NOT natural unless it is beneficial (like in a situation where after YEARS of starvation, a HUGE number of prey become available and the "consumers" attempt to preserve a larger-then-usual amount just in case said period of starvation comes back) or could be seen to be such... the examples of human greed I see almost every day are either born out of an artificially-created "starvation" or just plain stupidity/vanity.
Hope at leats some of this makes sense, don't lose hope Selfactivated, there's more of us out here
Re: RE: All we are saying is
Again.....WOW! I truely wish I had you eloquence.
Ive been staying away from a term that is used in my circles alot. Its called "collective Consciousness" Is it a term that yall are aware of or is it not wide known?
mabudon said:To Cosmo- SO negative!! Cheer up, a lot of things don't work on large scales, but can be made out of many tiny pieces- sometimes looking at the "big picture" can just be confusing. I should re-define "meek" for you perhaps (the way I'm sure it was intended in the bible and other places), since it is unfortunate you do not subscribe to the doctrine anymore, despite the inevitability of it. "meek" is NOT taken by me to mean "wallflowers" or people who don't have self-worth, but rather those whos self worth is very much based on the WHOLE of our earthly existence, and who judge their "success" on their treatment of the things and people around them... if EVERYONE on the planet truly "cared" about things on the most basic levels, things would be better, but it will take more than that, it will take these people (the "meek") sticking to their guns, as kindness can spread much more quickly than viciousness and with many more self-rewarding fruits- violence begets both winners and losers, TRUE kindness and understanding usually will produce nothing BUT winners- with this simple idea in mind, it is hard to see how one could EVER win out over the other. In the end, only thos who learn to live WITH both the planet AND their fellow man will be left, and if this never comes to pass, then the animal "meek" who are usually seen to be below us will be the only ones left (which is the grim interpretation but hell, it's true and it'd look like the pics on them jehovahs witness tracts minus the chubby children) and they, having no aspirations for control or power in a global or even regional sense will be left to live their lives in peace.... I'm personally gunning (pun sorta intended, just in an ironic sense) for the former, "humans smart themselves up and we all can get on with it" resolution
Like selfactivated said (and I truly believe) you have to apply the "think globally, act locally" mentality to things...
As mentioned before, and it is NO JOKE, good deeds can make EVERYONE win...
Ironically, it makes me sad to hear folks say "that's impossible" to a world where humans realize (in both the understanding AND the actual "making it so" sense) our true potential- there will always be some forms of disagreement, but that should be the extent of it, since disagreeing is natural for individuals, but if such a world is "impossible" then we as a race are most certailnly doomed, and I just can't believe that. I have seen to much to believe that folks worldwide honestly want this, and believe that it is the nature of certain systems to make it a reality (like the definition of economics, satisfying infinite greed with finite resources) Greed is NOT natural unless it is beneficial (like in a situation where after YEARS of starvation, a HUGE number of prey become available and the "consumers" attempt to preserve a larger-then-usual amount just in case said period of starvation comes back) or could be seen to be such... the examples of human greed I see almost every day are either born out of an artificially-created "starvation" or just plain stupidity/vanity.
Hope at leats some of this makes sense, don't lose hope Selfactivated, there's more of us out here
Again.....WOW! I truely wish I had you eloquence.
Ive been staying away from a term that is used in my circles alot. Its called "collective Consciousness" Is it a term that yall are aware of or is it not wide known?