Afghanistan: a war that can't be won

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
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Re: RE: Afghanistan: a war that can't be won

Mogz said:
...People in our society have no idea what's going on in Afghanistan, yet are quick to pass judgement...

that has such an ironic symmetry it is beyond the poetic.

Mogz said:
Extremely right colpy. I spent some time in the mountains up near Pakisitan working with boys from 2 RCR out of Gagetown and members of the Belgian Airborne. We were doing mountain patrols to try and pick up on patrol routes and safe havens for the militants. The region around Pakistan is some of the most rugged on the planet, with very think oxygen and little shelter. I know it'll sound like bragging, but i'm in excellent shape, i'm keenly aware of this. I run marathons and can hump a rucksuck forever. Normally nothing stops me, yet the mountains of Afghanistan did. I was bagged, I had a hard time coping with the lack of oxygen, and I saw brown spots on more than one occasion. There were guys on the patrol with me that utterly blacked out and/or suffered from dehydration or heat stroke/cramps. The terrain is unforgiving and very hard to police. Just to put things in perspective.

yeah yeah

your cheque late or something?

I'd be more impressed, and have been so but not here so far, by a perspective that includes the degree to which tribal bonds and tradition supercede nation-state boundaries in that area. I don't see guns being put down until AT LEAST that is dealt with using something besides artillery.
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
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Mogz

Greetings!

Even if the Israeli government/military modifies and re-works U.S. armaments, there’s little doubt given the level of “aid” every month sent to Israel from the U.S. that a significant proportion of the actual hardware and the money spent modifying it comes from good ole Uncle Sam. The level of aid to Israel isn’t the topic here but I think it would be interesting to play with the numbers (amount of U.S. aid to Israel) and speculate how much greater effect that enormous amount could do in far more desperate nations like Afghanistan, Darfur, Somalia …pick one. Spent on reconstruction education and medicine for instance…

And this is the true “where the rubber meets the road” issue when it comes to western aid to nations in difficulty and “foreign policy”. The choice to meet hatred and animosity with overwhelming force (and brutality) is the legacy of the United States all over this planet. This is their first choice.

It seems to make “sense” to the war-machinery in Washington to spend billions upon billions of dollars producing and deploying weaponry and troops as opposed to consideration of any process whereby the roots of hatred and terrorism could be addressed in an entirely different way.

Now if ITN doesn’t jump on me for this I just know that there are others out there thinking… “Sure fella…and what have the Soviets been doing and what have the Chinese been doing” and…so on.

If there’s any truth to the notion that democracies hold greater promise in terms of establishing/creating peace and maintaining that peace, it seems so obvious that I’m a little embarrassed to have to point it out…

If the wealthiest nation on earth and the nation with the best means to facilitate a non-military response instead choose militarism time and time again, how can the fact that we live in times of terrorism and anxiety as product of this choice escape people’s understanding????

From the jungles of Columbia to the deserts of Persia, the U.S. has invariably responded with violence when their perception has been that “America’s interests” are somehow in jeopardy. I wholeheartedly supported bombing Columbia when the issue of Columbia’s drug cartels became a hot issue several years ago. Drug cartels in Columbia (Pablo Escobar) built houses churches and clinics for the people working in the cocaine mills, and when the U.S. took action, instead of bombing them with food and medicine, educating the natives and providing some other means for folk to earn a living, it was napalm, FADs, Willie Pete and Puff the Magic Dragon….

If indeed foreign policy has at a fundamental level the purpose of creating a climate wherein stability can be established and maintained and that stable environment can then be encourage to self-sufficiency and eventually trade and “markets”, the process of killing and destroying simply because “we can” has no place of usefulness within that paradigm.

And yet the U.S. will spend more than the GDP of the next closest twenty nations annually on weapons and armaments….

But as I’ve often heard (and as politicians from the U.S. have declared publicly) America is Israel and Israel is America…

This conveniently eliminates any confusion anyone may have with respect to the exercise of both U.S. and Israeli “foreign policy”….

My interest is in your statement: “People in our society have no idea what's going on in Afghanistan, yet are quick to pass judgement based on speculation and "articles" they get off of the internet.”

I’d agree in a general sense with that statement but would advise a caveat of sorts before simply dismissing “People in our society” (everyone)…

In the entire history of war, there has never been control exercised over what media is permitted to report and what reporters are allowed to witness first-hand, as there is with the current U.S. government. We have verifiable proof that media in North America has printed and transmitted false and misleading to say nothing of totally erroneous “information” passed along to them for this purpose from the Whitehouse and the Pentagon. The New York Times went so far as to publish an apology with respect to their coverage of the lies regarding some “vast stockpiles of WMD in Iraq”…
When no huge stockpile of WMD were found (or proof that they’d even existed) the NYT realized that unverified bullshit from Rumsfeld Powel and Bush was more likely to be wrong than right…

The U.S. has “managed” media coverage in this theatre like no other theatre has ever been managed including the war in Viet Nam. And still we learned that U.S. service personnel were just as cruel and barbaric as the “enemy” and there was and is significant levels of information supporting the thesis that these folk tortured prisoners and mistreated the “enemy” under orders from as high as inside the Whitehouse itself.

The Internet is, the home of conspiracy theorists and folk with only a tenuous grasp on reality, it is also the only medium where factual information un-massaged and un-blended into media pap suitable for feeding to the great unwashed might be found. That we frequently fail to exercise a healthy scepticism and many have difficulty differentiating bullshit from truth, it (the internet) enjoys the ‘possibility’ if factual content when we know as an absolute that the Whitehouse, the Pentagon and Ottawa (not to forget our Oh-so-“genuinely sincere” Stephen Harper) are the bedrock source of bulshit lies exaggeration and plainly deceptive “information”.

I’m simply suggesting that no single persons perspective (whether yours or mine) can reasonably be relied upon as the absolute truth unaffected by prejudice or perspective and representing unequivocal certainty.

But hey you can say whatever you like….

Have a nice day.
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
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The Evil Empire
MikeyDB said:
Now if ITN doesn’t jump on me for this I just know that there are others out there thinking… “Sure fella…and what have the Soviets been doing and what have the Chinese been doing” and…so on.

Bah, ITN is tired and half drunk, plus I get tired of repeating myself and even if I tried, you need years of deprogramming, I don't have that kind of time.

Have a nice day. :D
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
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I'll enter a deprogramming program???? if you do!

I think it's fair to say that you're at least as programed as I.

You have a great day!

And that's an ORDER! :)
 

JonB2004

Council Member
Mar 10, 2006
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RE: Afghanistan: a war th

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The hell with Afghanistan. Almost no progress has made in the 5 years we've been there and its costed over $3 billion of our tax dollars. I'm fed up of it. Why don't we fix the problems we have in Canada?
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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Why?

Is Your Ontario Stereo Acquisition cheque not up to snuff?

Oh, sorry, that should have read Ontario Student Aid cheque.

Seriously, if we all leave Afghanistan, the Taliban take over, and start plotting the next Tower attack.......

Why can't you see that?
 

BitWhys

what green dots?
Apr 5, 2006
3,157
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RE: Afghanistan: a war th

so

how many troops to lock down the border properly?
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
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BitWhys

Religious fundamentalism practiced by fanatics inevitably changes many things. The western promise of wealth and prosperity, “democracy” and freedom holds some allure…. Particularly if your nation is subjected to the too often-cruel attentions lavished on citizens when religious fanatics secure power in any nation.

It doesn’t appear to matter to the enormous body of self-described “Christians” living in JesusLand U.S.A that “good” people sent to wrestle “freedom” and “opportunity” for the people of Afghanistan from a fanatic movement have demonstrated a proclivity to barbarism akin to that shown by those identified as the “enemy”.

I’d be curious to read a study or report that could provide some metric to the level of attention exercised by Canadians regarding Afghanistan prior to Sept. 11/2001. I’d speculate that like most American’s, the average Canadian wouldn’t be able to point to Afghanistan on a map of the world. This might indicate a weak education system or it might reflect the fact that before the American people went seeking revenge, only geographers and historians had any inkling regarding this area of the planet.

Frequently contributors to forums will plea for “balance” or offer that someone’s stated opinion is so extremely bias that it un-intentionally reveals a perspective so skewed as to command at a minimum, outright dismissal.

I’m struck by the rancid odor of disingenuousness sometimes but more often attribute this perverse thinking to simple ignorance.

If “balance” as notion warrants our passionate embrace when examining things, might we find this expression of “balance” in examining the precursors and predicates contributing the situation in question?

“Just less than 3,000 people were killed in the September 11th atrocities. At the time, many of the relatives of the victims, including Irish relatives, pleaded that not one more innocent life would be lost in retaliation for these crimes. Unfortunately, this plea went unheeded. The present civilian death-toll in Afghanistan is at least 4,000 and could be as high as 8,000.”

Any “balance” is subject to interpretation of course, “conditional”… if you would, regarding whose claim to justifiable moral outrage permits of “committing evil to do good” as Robert S. McNamara once excused the immolation of four hundred thousand Japanese civilians by the United States. (Firebombing Tokyo and two nuclear bombs Nagasaki Hiroshima)

“The lowest casualty estimates, based on the now-renounced North Vietnamese statements, are around 1.5 million Vietnamese killed. Vietnam released figures on April 3, 1995 that a total of one million Vietnamese combatants and four million civilians were killed in the war. The accuracy of these figures has generally not been challenged. 58,226 American soldiers also died in the war or are missing in action. Australia lost almost 500 of the 47,000 troops they had deployed to Vietnam and New Zealand lost 38 soldiers.”

58,000 American soldiers ------ 4,000,000 Vietnamese civilians….

Or let’s try to find this “balance” a little closer to home….

“Though U.S.-backed armies and paramilitary forces eventually quelled the leftist peasant rebellions, the cost in blood was staggering. The death toll in El Salvador was estimated at about 70,000 people. In Guatemala, the number of dead reached about 200,000, including what a truth commission concluded was a genocide against the Mayan populations in Guatemala’s highlands.”

Approximately 300,000 casualties of U.S. intervention in Central America.


“The muted press coverage that the U.S. news media has given these atrocities as they have come to light over the years also showed the residual strength of the “perception management” employed by the Reagan administration. For instance, even when the atrocities of former Guatemalan dictator Efrain Rios Montt are mentioned, as they were in the context of his defeat in Guatemala’s Nov. 9 presidential elections, the history of Reagan’s warm support for Rios Montt is rarely, if ever, noted by the U.S. press.”


“The following year, the U.S. deployed forces in the Persian Gulf after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, which turned Washington against its former Iraqi ally Saddam Hussein. U.S. supported the Kuwaiti monarchy and the Muslim fundamentalist monarchy in neighboring Saudi Arabia against the secular nationalist Iraq regime. In January 1991, the U.S..and its allies unleashed a massive bombing assault against Iraqi government and military targets, in an intensity beyond the raids of World War II and Vietnam. Up to 200,000 Iraqis were killed in the war and its imemdiate aftermath of rebellion and disease, including many civilians who died in their villages, neighborhoods, and bomb shelters. The U.S. continued economic sanctions that denied health and energy to Iraqi civilians, who died by the hundreds of thousands, according to United Nations agencies. The U.S. also instituted "no-fly zones" and virtually continuous bombing raids, yet Saddam was politically bolstered as he was militarily weakened.”

Estimates range from 250,000 to 580,000 Iraqi people killed through American involvement in the Persian Gulf.

Even with these sub-totals from different areas of the world, “balance” seems to require that we embrace the “necessity” of millions of civilian deaths as “acceptable” when its Canada and the United States doing the killing.

And this perspective follows from only five of hundreds of “interventions” that have taken place at the behest of the United States of America.

So when you hear pleas for “balance” just remember that what you’re most likely to be hearing is actually a suggestion that you conveniently ignore the staggering amount of death and destruction practiced by western nations, and consider only the actions of those “enemies” as informed by our politically controlled media…
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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Mikey DB, your post above is definitely a contender for the biggest heap o' horseshit I have ever encountered in one place..........

It doesn’t appear to matter to the enormous body of self-described “Christians” living in JesusLand U.S.A that “good” people sent to wrestle “freedom” and “opportunity” for the people of Afghanistan from a fanatic movement have demonstrated a proclivity to barbarism akin to that shown by those identified as the “enemy”.

Funny I hadn't noticed coalition troops executing homosexuals and adulterers, blowing up ancient monuments, killing girls that dared to want an education, forcing widows to stay inside and starve with their children, or encouraging various groups that desire more than anything to kill large groups of innocents to the glory of Allah! I guess they must be pretty sly!

“Just less than 3,000 people were killed in the September 11th atrocities. At the time, many of the relatives of the victims, including Irish relatives, pleaded that not one more innocent life would be lost in retaliation for these crimes. Unfortunately, this plea went unheeded. The present civilian death-toll in Afghanistan is at least 4,000 and could be as high as 8,000.”

So what. It was an attack, Afghanistan contained (and aided) those responsible, the Taliban would not turn them over. There was no choice but to go in. There were only 2500 people killed at Pearl Harbour. Should the USA have simply apologized to the Japanese for being in their way, and waited for the second shoe to drop at Midway?

“The following year, the U.S. deployed forces in the Persian Gulf after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, which turned Washington against its former Iraqi ally Saddam Hussein. U.S. supported the Kuwaiti monarchy and the Muslim fundamentalist monarchy in neighboring Saudi Arabia against the secular nationalist Iraq regime. In January 1991, the U.S..and its allies unleashed a massive bombing assault against Iraqi government and military targets, in an intensity beyond the raids of World War II and Vietnam. Up to 200,000 Iraqis were killed in the war and its imemdiate aftermath of rebellion and disease, including many civilians who died in their villages, neighborhoods, and bomb shelters. The U.S. continued economic sanctions that denied health and energy to Iraqi civilians, who died by the hundreds of thousands, according to United Nations agencies. The U.S. also instituted "no-fly zones" and virtually continuous bombing raids, yet Saddam was politically bolstered as he was militarily weakened.”

What CRAP! The Iraqis invaded a US ally,they sought control over the Arab peninsula and its oil. Should America have stood aside and simply bought its oil from Saddam? Conventional wisdom is that there were 150,000 Iraqi military casualties, and Saddam murdered at least 100,000 shi'ites after the War, so your estimates of casualties are low. Few of those CIVILIAN casualties can be attributed to the United States.........As for people, or children dying from sanctions, please explain how Saddam was able to build a couple of DOZEN palaces during the sanctions period, and how his wealth multiplied at this time..........perhaps one could logically conclude that any lack of goods getting to the common man was the result of SADDAM's misbehaviour?

Balance is......you attack me with murderous intent, I kick your arse severely............anything else is not balance, it is stupidity.
 

#juan

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Aug 30, 2005
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However big a bastard Saddam was/is,

he had a legitimate beef against Kuwait. We should also remember that Kuwait was once part of Iraq before the U.S., the Brits, and other meddlers started playing with crayons and maps. Kuwait was "slant drilling" into Iraqi territory. I haven't even mentioned the American embassador's underhanded trick to suck Saddam into that war.