Are Mormons Christians?

Dexter Sinister
#31
Quote: Originally Posted by VanIsleView Post

Occult???? Do you mean cult??? The two are very different from each other.

I don't think so. Given the dictionary definition of the occult as "any system claiming use or knowledge of secret or supernatural powers or agencies," and dictionary definitions of cult as "a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies," or "a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc." it seems that any set of religious beliefs could be fairly described as both occult and a cult. It's just that in common usage they have pejorative overtones, they're used by members of one cult to dismiss the beliefs of another as foolish or unreasonable, while of course their own are held to be perfectly sensible, divinely inspired, rooted in sacred texts and profound convictions of certainty, or whatever. I'm reminded of H.L. Mencken's observation that the chief occupation of mankind is believing in the palpably untrue.

With regard to the OP, it seems to me that debating whether or not Mormons are Christians is foolish beyond description. Of course they are. So are Anglicans, Catholics, Lutherans, Calvinists, Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, Mennonites, Hutterites... It's a big tent, plenty of room in it for Mormons, though I think the United Church might be just outside the flap, its doctrine got watered down so much in the unification that you don't really have to believe much of anything to belong.
 
TenPenny
#32
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

Next the universe has such an order that I do believe in a Creator. To have such order did not happen by chance?????

Of course it could.

Don't be so silly.
 
Dexter Sinister
#33
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

Next the universe has such an order that I do believe in a Creator. To have such order did not happen by chance?????

You mean YOU don't believe it happened by chance, not that it didn't, or couldn't, you can't possibly know that, but what you believe--or what anyone believes, I don't mean to single you out--really has nothing necessarily to do with what's actually true. That's why we've developed such elaborate, self-correcting procedures for finding things out about the universe. I also think that if you look deeply enough you'll see that things aren't nearly as ordered as they may superficially appear, nor are some things quite as random as they may appear, but to say much more here would be a serious hijack of this thread.
 
petros
#34
What part of Christanity does going to colonize and be God of you own planet when you die come from? OT or NT?
 
Cliffy
#35
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

What part of Christanity does going to colonize and be God of you own planet when you die come from? OT or NT?

Well, you know that many early Christian and Jewish writings were left out of the bible. The Book of Moron claims to contain some of them, to complete the bible, sort o speak.

Of course, if you read it, you would know it is the ravings of a fruit loop, but....

Have you ever come across The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ?
Last edited by Cliffy; Oct 30th, 2011 at 12:47 AM..
 
Bar Sinister
+1
#36
Of course they are. Mormon beliefs simply happen to be a bit more ridiculous than those of most other Christians.
 
petros
+1
#37
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

Well, you know that many early Christian and Jewish writings were left out of the bible. The Book of Moron claims to contain some of them, to complete the bible, sort o speak.

Of course, if you read it, you would know it is the ravings of a fruit loop, but....

Where can I get a magic hat to read the gold tablets that hold the truth about God?
 
petros
#38
Not even close.
 
Cliffy
#39
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

Where can I get a magic hat to read the gold tablets that hold the truth about God?

You may have to wear the magic underwear too.
 
Cliffy
#40
Deja vu
 
petros
+3
#41
It's more magical to not wear any underwear.
 
VanIsle
#42
The minister of my church said that the Mormans seemed to "suddenly" find Jesus in North America when the numbers in the church began to dwindle. He said they are classified as a cult. Being classified as one doesn't mean to me that they are. We know a Morman family well. Maybe the church leader "suddenly" found Jesus but the church has now been taught that Jesus does exist. The only different beliefs that I know of are - they do not drink any caffeinated drinks or alchohol and they do not believe in Satan. They are loyal to their church and to their families. Like any christians, some walk away from their church and their families. Normal north americans. No Morman has ever done me any harm. Quite the opposite and I have nothing but good things to say about the Mormans I know. If you want to find out about genealogy - go to to the Morman (Latter Day Saints) Church. They will be happy to give you all the help they can.
 
VanIsle
#43
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter SinisterView Post

I don't think so. Given the dictionary definition of the occult as "any system claiming use or knowledge of secret or supernatural powers or agencies," and dictionary definitions of cult as "a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies," or "a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc." it seems that any set of religious beliefs could be fairly described as both occult and a cult. It's just that in common usage they have pejorative overtones, they're used by members of one cult to dismiss the beliefs of another as foolish or unreasonable, while of course their own are held to be perfectly sensible, divinely inspired, rooted in sacred texts and profound convictions of certainty, or whatever. I'm reminded of H.L. Mencken's observation that the chief occupation of mankind is believing in the palpably untrue.
With regard to the OP, it seems to me that debating whether or not Mormons are Christians is foolish beyond description. Of course they are. So are Anglicans, Catholics, Lutherans, Calvinists, Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, Mennonites, Hutterites... It's a big tent, plenty of room in it for Mormons, though I think the United Church might be just outside the flap, its doctrine got watered down so much in the unification that you don't really have to believe much of anything to belong.

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
Thank you. The United Church is my church.
 
damngrumpy
#44
My answer to this is Who Cares? Christians are about traditions more than belief in
many cases because the original teachings were passed up for political expediency.
Many of the beliefs and stories were taken from pagan beliefs in order to convert the
peoples in various parts of Europe.
Its funny how many condemn the Muslims while following a bunch of other traditions
that don't jive with their own belief system. I cannot help but wonder how a great nation
like America can go to hell in a hand basket because they are arguing over who is a
Christian, or not born in America or some other belief that ranges from ancient text in
many cases taken out of text, to believing in stories meant to explain things being taken
literally and in some cases believing in miracles to come with almost the reverence of
superstition.
The problem is much bigger than wondering if one faith has more merit than another.
 
Cliffy
+2
#45
Quote: Originally Posted by VanIsleView Post

Thank you. The United Church is my church.

Don't take it personal. It is his opinion.

In Nakusp, the United Church minster is a gay friend of mine. Her presence is a constant source of angst for the other denominations, the JWs in particular. Personally, I find it heartening that even the older people have been able to accept her ministering.
 
In Between Man
+1
#46
Mormons are not Christians. The reason Mormonism is not Christian is because it DENIES more than one of the ESSENTIAL DOCTRINES of Christianity. Of the essential doctrines (there is only one God, Jesus is God in the flesh, forgiveness of sins is by grace alone, Jesus physically rose from the dead, and the gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus), Mormonism denies three of them: how many Gods there are, the attributes of "Christ", and the works of his salvation.

Mormon theology teaches that God is only one of countless gods, that he used to be a man on another planet, that he became a god by following the laws and ordinances of that god on that world, and that he brought one of his wives to this world with whom he produces "spirit children" who then inhabit human bodies at birth. The first spirit child to be born was Jesus. Second was Satan, and then we all followed. This is in strict contrast to the biblical teaching the Jesus Christ is God in the flesh(John 1:1 (external - login to view),14 (external - login to view)), eternal(John 1:2 (external - login to view), 15 (external - login to view)), uncreated yet born on earth(Colossians 1:15 (external - login to view)), and creator of all (John 1:3 (external - login to view), Colossians 1:16-17 (external - login to view)).

Mormonism teaches among the countless gods, that Jesus is "a" god, one of three who comprise the office of the trinity. These three gods are God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Again, a direct contrast to the biblical teaching that there is only ONE God(Isaiah 43:10 (external - login to view), 44:6 (external - login to view), 8 (external - login to view), 45:5 (external - login to view)) the CORRECT definition of the trinity (external - login to view).

Mormonism teaches that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross itself (and receiving it by faith) is not sufficient to bring forgiveness of sins. It teaches that the forgiveness of sins is obtained though a cooperative effort with God; that is, we must be good and follow the laws and ordinances of the Mormon church in order to obtain forgiveness. This clearly contradicts the biblical doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace through faith, (Romans 5:1 (external - login to view), 6:23 (external - login to view), Ephesians 2:8-9 (external - login to view)) and the doctrine that works are not part of our salvation but a result of them(Romans 4:5 (external - login to view)).

To further confuse the matter, Mormonism further states that salvation is twofold. It maintains that salvation is both forgiveness of sins and universal resurrection. So when a Mormon speaks of salvation by grace, he is usually referring to universal resurrection (external - login to view). But the Bible speaks of salvation as the forgiveness of sins, not simple universal resurrection.

In order to justify its aberrant theology, Mormonism has undermined the authority and trustworthiness of the Bible. The 8th article of faith from the Mormon Church states, "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly." This means that when the Bible contradicts Mormonism, the Bible isn't trustworthy.

Mormonism is not Christian because it denies that there is only one God, denies the true Gospel, adds works to salvation, denies that Jesus is the uncreated creator, distorts the biblical teaching of the atonement, and undermines the authority and reliability of the Bible.

Becoming a Christian does not mean belonging to a church, doing good things, or simply believing in God. Being a Christian means that you have trusted in the true God for salvation, in the True Jesus - not the brother of the devil, not the god of Mormonism, not the gospel of Mormonism. Mormonism is false and cannot save anyone.
 
Cliffy
#47
You forgot to say that is only your opinion.
 
In Between Man
#48
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

You forgot to say that is only your opinion.

And my opinion is the truth.
 
Corduroy
#49
Sure, why not?
 
In Between Man
#50
Quote: Originally Posted by CorduroyView Post

Sure, why not?

Because like anything else certain criteria is needed to meet the definition, and Mormons don't meet the criteria. Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet for Allah, he's even recorded in the Quran, does that mean they're Christian?
 
Spade
#51
And, I suppose Aley, because they don't meet your definition, they're going to hell?

PS to Goober,
And you claim the are not ALL man made?
 
SLM
#52
Quote: Originally Posted by SpadeView Post

I agree Mormonism is man made. But, so are all other religions.

I agree, and beliefs are personal and internal. If enough individuals share a belief that they can come together in a community, beautiful, good for them. From my personal pov, how a belief system is defined as Christian or not would be predicated on whether the belief is that Jesus was the son of God.

Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

It was the part about having the one true god that got me. I asked for proof, which I didn't think was an unreasonable request but never got an answer.

Maybe it was because the religious instruction that I did receive was so very brief, but I personally never reached a point where I challenged that, never questioned that of others. I simply came to certain conclusions as I grew older, the main conclusion being that I simply do not know who or what or even if, God is.

Quote:

Then there was one I read but can't remember who the nut was that said" GOd does not hear the prayers of a Jew". Now I confess to never having met god despite some good drugs but I'm fairly certain that Jews would not bother praying if they thought this was true.
I know that many native cultures have more than one god so how can some so called christian call them pagans or heathens?

Perhaps my definition of Christian is narrow, I can certainly see where someone who believes in a more structured and disciplined sytem of belief may think so, but true Christianity to me, at it's heart, has always been about acceptance, love and inclusion.
 
Goober
#53
Quote: Originally Posted by SpadeView Post

And, I suppose Aley, because they don't meet your definition, they're going to hell?

PS to Goober,
And you claim the are not ALL man made?

Guess we find out after we are dead. Hell of a way to prove a point.
 
SLM
#54
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

Guess we find out after we are dead. Hell of a way to prove a point.

And no "do overs" on that one either.
 
Tonington
#55
Yes, they are Christians.
 
taxslave
#56
Quote: Originally Posted by alleywayzalwayzView Post

Mormons are not Christians. The reason Mormonism is not Christian is because it DENIES more than one of the ESSENTIAL DOCTRINES of Christianity. Of the essential doctrines (there is only one God, Jesus is God in the flesh, forgiveness of sins is by grace alone, Jesus physically rose from the dead, and the gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus), Mormonism denies three of them: how many Gods there are, the attributes of "Christ", and the works of his salvation.
Mormon theology teaches that God is only one of countless gods, that he used to be a man on another planet, that he became a god by following the laws and ordinances of that god on that world, and that he brought one of his wives to this world with whom he produces "spirit children" who then inhabit human bodies at birth. The first spirit child to be born was Jesus. Second was Satan, and then we all followed. This is in strict contrast to the biblical teaching the Jesus Christ is God in the flesh(John 1:1,14), eternal(John 1:2, 15), uncreated yet born on earth(Colossians 1:15), and...

Quote has been trimmed, See full post: View Post
As opposed to your religious dogma that must be right because YOUR preacher told you so?
 
Cliffy
#57
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

As opposed to your religious dogma that must be right because YOUR preacher told you so?

Alley worships at the church of Starbucks where everyone is their own preacher, at least that is what he claims. Many of his beliefs are very similar to the radical right wing fundies, so I think his beliefs are heavily influenced, whether he admits it or not. We'll see when he returns tonight what he has to say about that.

From my personal experience, a Cree spiritual elder I knew came closest to any human I have met to embodying the essence of Christ's philosophy and teachings than any self proclaimed Christian I have met.
 
Goober
#58
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

As opposed to your religious dogma that must be right because YOUR preacher told you so?

Richard John Neuhaus — Is Mormonism Christian? (external - login to view)

Ours is an interreligious enterprise, basically but not exclusively Jewish and Christian. Dr. Bruce Hafen is on our Editorial Advisory Board. He has held prominent positions in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS), including that of provost and dean of the law school at Brigham Young University. I can’t say that many of my friends are Mormons, but some are. We are obliged to respect human dignity across the board, and to affirm common discernments of the truth wherever we find them. Where we disagree we should try to put the best possible construction on the position of the other, while never trimming the truth. That will become more important as Mormons become more of a presence, both in this country and the world. There are about ten million of them now, with about one-half of the membership in the U.S. Sociologist Rodney Stark — a non-Mormon with strong personal connections to the LDS — predicts that, on the basis of present growth patterns, there will be more than 265 million Mormons by the end of this century, making it the most important new religion in world history since Islam. For reasons I will come to, I think that is improbable. Put differently, if that happens, Mormonism will be something dramatically different from what it has been over the last century and a half.


The LDS is, among other things, a very big business tightly controlled from the top down. If one believes that the entire enterprise is based on revelation that is authoritatively interpreted by divinely appointed officers, it makes sense that control should be from the top down. The LDS claims that God chose Joseph Smith to reestablish the Church of Jesus Christ after it had disappeared some 1,700 years earlier following the death of the first apostles. To complicate the picture somewhat, God’s biblical work was extended to the Americas somewhere around 2000 B.C. and continued here until A.D. 421. This is according to the Book of Mormon, the scriptures given to Joseph Smith on golden tablets by the Angel Moroni. American Indians are called Lamanites and are part of the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel. Jesus came to preach to these Indians and for a long time there was a flourishing church here until it fell into apostasy, only to be restored, as the golden tablets foretold, by Joseph Smith. In addition to giving new scriptures, God commissioned Smith to revise the Bible, the text of which had been corrupted over the centuries by Jews and Christians.


The question as asked by Mormons is turned around: are non-Mormons who claim to be Christians in fact so? The emphatic and repeated answer of the Mormon scriptures and the official teaching of the LDS is that we are not.

We are members of "the great and abominable church" that was built by frauds and imposters after the death of the first apostles.

The true church and true Christianity simply went out of existence, except for its American Indian interlude, until it was rediscovered and reestablished by Joseph Smith in upstate New York, and its claims will be vindicated when Jesus returns, sooner rather than later, at a prophetically specified intersection in Jackson County, Missouri.
 
Spade
#59
Quote: Originally Posted by GooberView Post

Guess we find out after we are dead. Hell of a way to prove a point.

There are numerous suppositions in that statement, few of which I accept.
1. That there is life after death.
2. That there is a "hell." (I thought Christians believed Gawd was infinite in her/his love.)
3. That our present existence is a trial and we'd "damn" well better get it right.
4. That only accepting a well-defined set of beliefs in Gawd assures "salvation."
5. That the majority of humanity is doomed.
6. That good works are irrelevant
... etc.

I admit religions do have some merits. Of course they are defined and evolved over time by clan and tribe, nation and ethnicity, superstition and the state of science in explaining the natural world. However, they offer solace in times of trouble and hardship, they help celebrate life's milestones, and they offer hope. Nevertheless they and their gods are constructs.

Some religious teachers that preached tolerance and forgiveness, community and the communal, peace and pacifism, charity and love are to be admired. Unfortunately their followers rather believe in the unbelievable and bicker among themselves and eshew and contemn dissenting beliefs than follow their precepts.
Last edited by Spade; Oct 30th, 2011 at 12:07 PM..
 
Goober
+2
#60
Quote: Originally Posted by SpadeView Post

There are numerous suppositions in that statement, few of which I accept.
1. That there is life after death.
2. That there is a "hell." (I thought Christians believed Gawd was infinite in her/his love.)
3. That our present existence is a trial and we'd "damn" well better get it right.
4. That only accepting a well-defined set of beliefs in Gawd assures "salvation."
5. That the majority of humanity is doomed.
6. That good works are irrelevant
... etc.

I admit religions do have some merits. Of course they are defined and evolved over time by clan and tribe, nation and ethnicity, superstition and the state of science in explaining the natural world. However, they offer solace in times of trouble and hardship, they help celebrate life's milestones, and they offer hope. Nevertheless they and their gods are constructs.

Some religious teachers that preached tolerance and forgiveness, community and the communal, peace and pacifism, charity and love are to be admired. Unfortunately their followrs rather believe in the unbelievable and bicker among themselves and eshew and contemn dissenting beliefs than follow their precepts.

1 – I believe there is life after death.

2 – Hell is the absence of the Creator

3 – Our existence is based upon free will – How you choose to live is solely your responsibility and choice. Now is it a trial, I don’t think so. I have not lived a Saintly life, younger days, but as time progressed so did I in my change.

4 - Reading the NT, Jesus refers to helping the poor in thousands of verses. Yet people still miss the point.

5- As to who is or is not doomed. I do not know. God did not place us here to send the vast majority to Hell.

6 – Good works are relevant – I refer to the big 10 and Jesus’ teachings regarding the poor, those that have been cast aside by society – So good works are indeed relevant. Those that believe differently are not listening to the teachings in my opinion

And the divisions are manmade – They are not the teachings of the NT. These have been corrupted, muck like the Roman Catholic Church in the beginnings after the death of Paul. Even then there were divisions but they have run rampant since then.

I do not believe that a Priest is my way to a life after thru confession etc, but I talk with God directly, much like the proverbial Jew sometimes arguing, sometimes praying, mostly appreciating the wonder and giving thanks.

I once asked 2 Muslim friends what they pray for.

1 asked mostly for guidance, the other prayed for other people in need. Myself I am the latter.
 

Similar Threads

0
Christians on the March
by darkbeaver | Jan 30th, 2007
29
to all Christians...
by newjet322 | Jan 15th, 2007
19
Palestinian Christians
by Rick van Opbergen | Dec 10th, 2006
115
Christians VS Democracy??
by Karlin | Dec 1st, 2005
no new posts