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March 8th, 2008, 03:00 PM
The whole concept of an omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent god who'd create us and then condemn certain of us to Hell is completely incoherent. I can't see how he can possibly exist.
Quoting eanassir
Expose it to whom? It can't be to himself, he already knows how they'll react and behave. It can only be to expose them to themselves. But what's the point in that? It's not going to make any difference on who goes to Hell and who gets to Paradise. Doesn't make sense that a perfect being would create such flawed creatures on purpose. If he wants us to be a certain way, he could have made us that way in the first place, populated Paradise with us, and skipped all the messy and painful business of this life. It's not teaching him anything. He is by definition incapable of learning anything, he already knows it all, and I can't see that it's helping us either. If I find myself in Hell in the next life, it's not going to help me to know why I'm there, I'm not getting out. Therefore He tries them to expose how they will react and behave.
The whole concept of an omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent god who'd create us and then condemn certain of us to Hell is completely incoherent. I can't see how he can possibly exist.
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March 9th, 2008, 03:50 PM
Quoting Dexter Sinister
Expose it to whom? It can't be to himself, he already knows how they'll react and behave. It can only be to expose them to themselves. But what's the point in that?
I mean to verify that practically; God knows everything; He knows that that man will commit a murder, for example, but it is impossible that such man may be responsible unless he will commit such an act. In case he has not done it yet, how can he be considered as committing that deed?
Example: Prophet Job was tried, and he succeeded in the examination; God found him (: verified him practically) forbearing patiently. This is in the Quran 38: 44
إِنَّا وَجَدْنَاهُ صَابِرًا نِعْمَ الْعَبْدُ إِنَّهُ أَوَّابٌ
The explanation: ( We found him full of patience and forbearance; how excellent a slave [of God, Job was]; he was ever turning [to God.] )
While Adam failed according to the Quran 20: 115
وَلَقَدْ عَهِدْنَا إِلَى آدَمَ مِن قَبْلُ فَنَسِيَ وَلَمْ نَجِدْ لَهُ عَزْمًا
The explanation: (We did take the covenant of Adam before, but he forgot [the warning of God]: and on his part We did not find any firm determination.)
And there are many other instances where God said in the Quran that He found such a prophet having no patience or some people he found them without commitment to their covenant.
eanassir
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March 9th, 2008, 04:18 PM
Quoting Dexter Sinister
Doesn't make sense that a perfect being would create such flawed creatures on purpose. If he wants us to be a certain way, he could have made us that way in the first place, populated Paradise with us, and skipped all the messy and painful business of this life.
The purpose from this material World:
- The growth of the soul will be completed inside the material body, to which it is a true ethereal copy; without the material body, the soul cannot be formed, and will not grow to become a mature man.
The soul
Moreover, the spiritual beings and objects are the result of this material World; because the matter is like a mould for formation of the ethereal or spiritual world.
In other words: the spiritual beings had lived in the material world in the past, then died and became ethereal or spiritual beings.
Moreover, the spiritual beings and objects are the result of this material World; because the matter is like a mould for formation of the ethereal or spiritual world.
In other words: the spiritual beings had lived in the material world in the past, then died and became ethereal or spiritual beings.
- Man will gradually acquire – during his Worldly life – complete mind, experience and conduct.
- He will recognize his Creator, and choose his way: either to be grateful or ungrateful.
God created the planets obedient to His law which He inserted in the universe; He created the bee to carry out her daily work in this well-known order, and He inspired her by the instinct to follow certain systemized ways; this is in the Quran 16: 68-69
وَأَوْحَى رَبُّكَ إِلَى النَّحْلِ أَنِ اتَّخِذِي مِنَ الْجِبَالِ بُيُوتًا وَمِنَ الشَّجَرِ وَمِمَّا يَعْرِشُونَ. ثُمَّ كُلِي مِن كُلِّ الثَّمَرَاتِ فَاسْلُكِي سُبُلَ رَبِّكِ ذُلُلاً ...
The explanation: (And your Lord [O Mohammed] inspired the bee [saying]: "Take to habitations] in the hills, in the trees and in the hives which they make.
Then eat of all fruits, and follow – submissive – the ways of your Lord…)
Then eat of all fruits, and follow – submissive – the ways of your Lord…)
While He created man and gave him the reason, the free will and the choice.
In case He created man like the bee, he will not have such merit or virtue.
This is in the Quran 76: 2-3
In case He created man like the bee, he will not have such merit or virtue.
This is in the Quran 76: 2-3
إِنَّا خَلَقْنَا الْإِنسَانَ مِن نُّطْفَةٍ أَمْشَاجٍ نَّبْتَلِيهِ فَجَعَلْنَاهُ سَمِيعًا بَصِيرًا . إِنَّا هَدَيْنَاهُ السَّبِيلَ إِمَّا شَاكِرًا وَإِمَّا كَفُورًا
The explanation: (We have created man from a scanty [seminal] fluid with sperms, mixed [with the ovum of woman], to try him [to see whether he comply to, or rebel against, Our commands], and have made him hear and see.
We have shown to him the [correct] way; [and have given to him the choice] whether to be grateful or ungrateful.)
We have shown to him the [correct] way; [and have given to him the choice] whether to be grateful or ungrateful.)
eanassir
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March 9th, 2008, 05:46 PM
I you hadn't been the originator of this thread I wouldn't have taken part in this sustained hijack of the subject; we're a long way from sunspots...
It seems to me that you're trying to make the following argument: this all-knowing, all-powerful, benevolent and perfect deity creates us flawed creatures, holds us responsible for those flaws, and demands that we rise above them under threat of eternal damnation, while knowing all along exactly how things will turn out for everybody. And somehow this is a good thing and makes some kind of sense. It's not, and it doesn't, quite apart from what strikes me as the ludicrously illogical claim that a perfect being would want or need creatures like us--or any sort of creature, really--to worship him in the first place.
I you hadn't been the originator of this thread I wouldn't have taken part in this sustained hijack of the subject; we're a long way from sunspots...
It seems to me that you're trying to make the following argument: this all-knowing, all-powerful, benevolent and perfect deity creates us flawed creatures, holds us responsible for those flaws, and demands that we rise above them under threat of eternal damnation, while knowing all along exactly how things will turn out for everybody. And somehow this is a good thing and makes some kind of sense. It's not, and it doesn't, quite apart from what strikes me as the ludicrously illogical claim that a perfect being would want or need creatures like us--or any sort of creature, really--to worship him in the first place.
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March 10th, 2008, 10:45 AM
Dexter: You really have a lot of patience-I would have snapped a long time ago.
Eanassir: you should take your thoughts to a more suitable thread(religion) where all the other religious types can hang out and discuss fairy tales about how the sun will eventually break into 19 pieces or whatever. You may beleive what you want, but don't try to feed us your religous doctrine.We didn't buy it, we won't buy it, we will never buy it.
Dexter: You really have a lot of patience-I would have snapped a long time ago.
Eanassir: you should take your thoughts to a more suitable thread(religion) where all the other religious types can hang out and discuss fairy tales about how the sun will eventually break into 19 pieces or whatever. You may beleive what you want, but don't try to feed us your religous doctrine.We didn't buy it, we won't buy it, we will never buy it.
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March 10th, 2008, 12:48 PM
Quoting Dexter Sinister
a perfect being would want or need creatures like us--or any sort of creature, really--to worship him in the first place.
This is in reply to their questions about God – be glorified.
God: there in no god in the universe apart from Him. He was like a hidden treasure, and He created all the creatures to know about His existence and to recognize Him and serve Him alone.
God – be exalted – said in the Quran 51: 56
God: there in no god in the universe apart from Him. He was like a hidden treasure, and He created all the creatures to know about His existence and to recognize Him and serve Him alone.
God – be exalted – said in the Quran 51: 56
وَمَا خَلَقْتُ الْجِنَّ وَالْإِنسَ إِلَّا لِيَعْبُدُونِ
The explanation: (I created the genie-kind [: demons] and human-kind only that they might worship Me [alone.])
He is not in need of their worship or servitude: if all people disbelieve, that will not decrease His kingdom; and if all people believe and worship Him, that will not increase His kingdom.
But He disagrees about the disbelief and the association of some equals or peers with Him, and if man shows gratitude to the bounty of his Lord, then He is pleased with this gratitude.
This is in the Quran 39: 7
He is not in need of their worship or servitude: if all people disbelieve, that will not decrease His kingdom; and if all people believe and worship Him, that will not increase His kingdom.
But He disagrees about the disbelief and the association of some equals or peers with Him, and if man shows gratitude to the bounty of his Lord, then He is pleased with this gratitude.
This is in the Quran 39: 7
إِن تَكْفُرُوا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ غَنِيٌّ عَنكُمْ وَلَا يَرْضَى لِعِبَادِهِ الْكُفْرَ وَإِن تَشْكُرُوا يَرْضَهُ لَكُمْ
The explanation: (If you [people] unbelieve, then assuredly God is Independent of you[r belief and worship], and He is not pleased with the unbelief [and ingratitude] of His servants; but if you show gratitude [to the bounties of God], He will be pleased with that...)
This will be like an officer or a general in the army, and there were soldiers under his leadership. Then a soldier passes by him, does not salute him, nor show respect to him, in spite that the general has treated him well and gave him all what he needs in the camp; the general will certainly be angry and will punish and imprison him.
While another soldier salutes his commander, respect him and is polite with him and obey all his orders; then surely the commander or general will be pleased with this soldier, and will honor and reward him.
Certainly, the two soldiers will not be equal concerning the way their commander will deal with them.
He does not want to punish them; He wants to be Merciful to them, but they choose to be ungrateful and they insist on the blasphemy, in spite of the large number of the apostles that He sent them.
This is in the Quran 4: 147
This will be like an officer or a general in the army, and there were soldiers under his leadership. Then a soldier passes by him, does not salute him, nor show respect to him, in spite that the general has treated him well and gave him all what he needs in the camp; the general will certainly be angry and will punish and imprison him.
While another soldier salutes his commander, respect him and is polite with him and obey all his orders; then surely the commander or general will be pleased with this soldier, and will honor and reward him.
Certainly, the two soldiers will not be equal concerning the way their commander will deal with them.
He does not want to punish them; He wants to be Merciful to them, but they choose to be ungrateful and they insist on the blasphemy, in spite of the large number of the apostles that He sent them.
This is in the Quran 4: 147
مَّا يَفْعَلُ اللّهُ بِعَذَابِكُمْ إِن شَكَرْتُمْ وَآمَنتُمْ وَكَانَ اللّهُ شَاكِرًا عَلِيمًا
The explanation: (What would God do with chastising you if you are thankful, and believe? God is All-Thankful, All-Knowing.)
eanassir
http://man-after-death.741.com
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http://man-after-death.741.com
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March 10th, 2008, 12:51 PM
Quoting Lester
Dexter: You really have a lot of patience-I would have snapped a long time ago.
Eanassir: you should take your thoughts to a more suitable thread(religion) where all the other religious types can hang out and discuss fairy tales about how the sun will eventually break into 19 pieces or whatever. You may beleive what you want, but don't try to feed us your religous doctrine.We didn't buy it, we won't buy it, we will never buy it.
Eanassir: you should take your thoughts to a more suitable thread(religion) where all the other religious types can hang out and discuss fairy tales about how the sun will eventually break into 19 pieces or whatever. You may beleive what you want, but don't try to feed us your religous doctrine.We didn't buy it, we won't buy it, we will never buy it.
I understand your purpose; but this is not for selling and buying.
It is up to you to choose whatever you like; it is your choice and your destiny.
It is up to you to choose whatever you like; it is your choice and your destiny.
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March 10th, 2008, 03:27 PM
Quoting eanassir
The explanation: (I created the genie-kind [: demons] and human-kind only that they might worship Me [alone.])
He is not in need of their worship or servitude: if all people disbelieve, that will not decrease His kingdom...
He is not in need of their worship or servitude: if all people disbelieve, that will not decrease His kingdom...
That's not logically consistent, and I think the least we should be able to expect from a perfect deity is logical consistency. If human belief or disbelief has no effect on him, why create us to worship him in the first place?
Quote:
Ah, so now you're saying it does matter to him, after assuring me it doesn't affect him. You can't have it both ways. Frankly I'd expect god to be a good deal happier with atheists than he is with believers. We never ask him for anything, never pester him with petitions or demands that he change something, we leave him alone and take responsibility for ourselves.
The explanation: (If you [people] unbelieve, then assuredly God is Independent of you[r belief and worship], and He is not pleased with the unbelief [and ingratitude] of His servants; but if you show gratitude [to the bounties of God], He will be pleased with that...)
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March 10th, 2008, 04:29 PM
He created them that they may recognize His existence. If they do not worship Him, He can create others; as in His saying – be exalted – in the Quran 11: 57 about Prophet Hood with his people [the tribe of Aad, who were near Yemen]:
فَإِن تَوَلَّوْاْ فَقَدْ أَبْلَغْتُكُم مَّا أُرْسِلْتُ بِهِ إِلَيْكُمْ وَيَسْتَخْلِفُ رَبِّي قَوْمًا غَيْرَكُمْ وَلاَ تَضُرُّونَهُ شَيْئًا إِنَّ رَبِّي عَلَىَ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ حَفِيظٌ
The explanation: ("But if you turn away [from me and listen not to my words], I have conveyed to you [the message] that I was sent with to you, and my Lord will [exterminate you and] make, a people other than you, successors [who will not associate as do you associate]; you will not hurt Him anything [by your association, but the hurt will be on you.] My Lord is Guardian over everything.")
In addition, God-be exalted- said in the Quran, chapter 5: 15-16
The explanation: (15- O people of the Bible [or Scripture: Jews and Christians], now has Our messenger [ Mohammed] come expounding to you many things in the Scripture that you have been hiding, and many things else he disregards. There has come to you light from God and a clear ‘Book’ [: the Quran.]
16-Whereby God guides him who seeks His good pleasure to the paths of safety, and brings them out of darkness to light with His leave, and guides them to a standard [and straight] path [of monotheism, that will lead them to Paradise in the next world].)
A Call from God to the People of the Scripture [or Bible: Jews and Christians]
Quoting Dexter Sinister
The answer is in the previous reply, with details and examples. That's not logically consistent, and I think the least we should be able to expect from a perfect deity is logical consistency. If human belief or disbelief has no effect on him, why create us to worship him in the first place?
Ah, so now you're saying it does matter to him, after assuring me it doesn't affect him. You can't have it both ways. Frankly I'd expect god to be a good deal happier with atheists than he is with believers. We never ask him for anything, never pester him with petitions or demands that he change something, we leave him alone and take responsibility for ourselves.
He created them that they may recognize His existence. If they do not worship Him, He can create others; as in His saying – be exalted – in the Quran 11: 57 about Prophet Hood with his people [the tribe of Aad, who were near Yemen]:
فَإِن تَوَلَّوْاْ فَقَدْ أَبْلَغْتُكُم مَّا أُرْسِلْتُ بِهِ إِلَيْكُمْ وَيَسْتَخْلِفُ رَبِّي قَوْمًا غَيْرَكُمْ وَلاَ تَضُرُّونَهُ شَيْئًا إِنَّ رَبِّي عَلَىَ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ حَفِيظٌ
The explanation: ("But if you turn away [from me and listen not to my words], I have conveyed to you [the message] that I was sent with to you, and my Lord will [exterminate you and] make, a people other than you, successors [who will not associate as do you associate]; you will not hurt Him anything [by your association, but the hurt will be on you.] My Lord is Guardian over everything.")
In addition, God-be exalted- said in the Quran, chapter 5: 15-16
يا أهلَ الكتابِ قد جاءَكم رسولُنا يبيّنُ لكم كثيراً مِمّا كنتم تُخفونَ مِن الكتابِ و يعفو عن كثير، قد جاءَكم مِن اللهِ نور و كتاب مبين . يهدي بهِ اللهُ من اتّبعَ رضوانَهُ سبلَ السّلامِ و يخرجُهم من الظلُماتِ إلى النّورِ بِإذنِهِ و يهديهم إلى صراطٍ مستقيم.
The explanation: (15- O people of the Bible [or Scripture: Jews and Christians], now has Our messenger [ Mohammed] come expounding to you many things in the Scripture that you have been hiding, and many things else he disregards. There has come to you light from God and a clear ‘Book’ [: the Quran.]
16-Whereby God guides him who seeks His good pleasure to the paths of safety, and brings them out of darkness to light with His leave, and guides them to a standard [and straight] path [of monotheism, that will lead them to Paradise in the next world].)
A Call from God to the People of the Scripture [or Bible: Jews and Christians]
eanassir
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March 12th, 2008, 11:04 AM
Quoting Lester
Well, I've had enough-
God – be glorified – said in the Quran 64: 6
فَكَفَرُوا وَتَوَلَّوا وَّاسْتَغْنَى اللَّهُ وَاللَّهُ غَنِيٌّ حَمِيدٌ
The explanation: (Therefore they unbelieved, and turned away; and God was in no need of them. For God is All-Sufficient [: does not need anyone], All-Laudable.)
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March 12th, 2008, 07:00 PM
Agreed. I think it's time to vote with our feet on this one. It's not about sunspots at all anymore, and never really was.
And eanassir, since it appears that English isn't your first language and thus you may not understand that, to vote with your feet is an idiom meaning to walk away from it.
Agreed. I think it's time to vote with our feet on this one. It's not about sunspots at all anymore, and never really was.
And eanassir, since it appears that English isn't your first language and thus you may not understand that, to vote with your feet is an idiom meaning to walk away from it.
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March 21st, 2008, 09:56 AM
Still no sunspots. It'll get mighty cold if the sun doesn't wake up soon.
http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/data/...e/mdi_igr/512/
Still no sunspots. It'll get mighty cold if the sun doesn't wake up soon.
http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/data/...e/mdi_igr/512/
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March 21st, 2008, 04:03 PM
Quoting Walter
Still no sunspots. It'll get mighty cold if the sun doesn't wake up soon.
http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/data/...e/mdi_igr/512/
http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/data/...e/mdi_igr/512/
"Wow, is it red or is it orange? And look how round it is."
? It may be that there were three major sunspots in history:
? It may be that there were three major sunspots in history:
- The spots seen by the ancient Chinese.
- The spots seen by the Abbasid.
- The spots seen in the year 1956 and lasted for about 2 weeks.
March 25th, 2008, 11:20 PM
Quoting Walter
Do you ever read from that website Walter? The cycles actually overlap. It's not like the hockey season is over and you start playing golf, unless you're a Maple Leaf of course. Cycle 24 began in January by their accounts.
Cycle 23 is still not over and Cycle 24 is very late.
