Free will versus determinism

Free will versus determinism

s_lone

#631

Re: Free will versus determinism

Sep 18th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by peacegirl

Your very last comment made me realize that you don't quite yet understand this knowledge. I am not putting you down; I'm just indicating that you don't quite get it yet. I never said I was not free to choose; I have always said I have options; but I am not free once the choice is made.

So if you never said you were not free to choose, I guess you mean that at some point, you are free to choose.

Freedom to choose is what free will is. Choose your camp.

peacegirl

#632

Re: Free will versus determinism

Sep 18th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by s_lone

So if you never said you were not free to choose, I guess you mean that at some point, you are free to choose.

Freedom to choose is what free will is. Choose your camp.

Just because we have options, and we can choose between those options, does not make our will free because every single motion is in the direction of greater satisfaction. We cannot escape this even when we are choosing one thing over another which makes it appear as if we have free will. In the very begining of his proof Lessans states:

We are not interested in opinions and theories regardless of where they originate, just in the truth, so let’s proceed to the next step and prove conclusively, beyond a shadow of doubt, that what we do of our own free will (of our own desire because we want to) is done absolutely and positively not of our own free will.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter Sinister

And there it is. Even when I give you a clear and unequivocal explanation of exactly what I mean and prove beyond any possible doubt that what I claimed is correct, you just deny it. Did you not notice that your restatement of the question does not include the condition about the 15 different letters in a line?

You don't even understand the puzzle, you've given incorrect information about it in response to questions. The order of the letters in the solution can't matter.

I had corrected what I had said originally.

Quote: Originally Posted by dexter

Given any triplet of letters like ABC, there are six ways to arrange it: ABC, ACB, BCA, BAC, CAB, and CBA. Because each letter can appear with every other one only once, only one of those six arrangements can appear in the solution, they're all identical in terms of the puzzle's conditions. The real puzzle, assuming I've understood his rather vague statement of it, is this: given the set of all possible unordered triplets of the letters A through O (there are 455 of them BTW), is there a subset of 35 of them in which each letter occurs in a triplet with every other letter exactly once? All the other information given in both statements of the puzzle is superfluous. Once you have those 35 triplets, you can sort them into any order you like. The order of the letters in each triplet and the overall order of all the triplets doesn't matter to the solution.

You're absolutely right. It's not about the order of the triplets, just as long as each letter is never twice with the same letter.

peacegirl

#633

Re: Free will versus determinism

Sep 18th, 2010

I get the feeling that people are very uncomfortable with me being here. In case I go, I hope you will not disregard this knowledge, even if at first it rubs you the wrong way. It IS a major discovery even if you don't see it right now, and one day it will be proven so.

JLM

#634

Re: Free will versus determinism

Sep 18th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by peacegirl

I get the feeling that people are very uncomfortable with me being here. In case I go, I hope you will not disregard this knowledge, even if at first it rubs you the wrong way. It IS a major discovery even if you don't see it right now, and one day it will be proven so.

Speaking for myself I'm not the least bit uncomfortable with your being here, BUT, I'M sure you could provide valuable input to other threads and would welcome that, BUT it's long past time to "change the record".

Dexter Sinister

#635

Re: Free will versus determinism

Sep 18th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by peacegirl

I get the feeling that people are very uncomfortable with me being here.

I'd be very surprised if that's true. Some people might be, I suppose, but that's not your problem anyway, it's theirs. It's just that on this particular subject nobody seems to agree with you. I'm sure you could contribute interesting and constructive comments to other threads, you're obviously fairly bright, and this subject can't be the only thing you think about. Why not spread yourself around a bit?

talloola

#636

Re: Free will versus determinism

Sep 18th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by peacegirl

I get the feeling that people are very uncomfortable with me being here. In case I go, I hope you will not disregard this knowledge, even if at first it rubs you the wrong way. It IS a major discovery even if you don't see it right now, and one day it will be proven so.

I think not, I hate the concept.

We will gradually work our way toward a balanced world, where peace
is the priority for everyone, along with our natural human responses and abilities to work things out,
and seek the best road to travel.

I believe as time passes, each generation is seeing the harm of wars more clearly than generations gone
by, and over time as more generations come and go,
the world will be much more peaceful, and the masses will see that they can change the negative and
harmful ways of the present, and work together to improve life on this earth, and they will insist
as they become leaders, that peace and understanding, instead of aggression and power, is how we all
want to live.

The children of the children of the children of todays radical leaders across the world will not be
what their great grandfathers were, but more knowledgeable and peaceful and willing to reach out to find a better way.

From my perspective, wars and drugs alone cause most of the damage, lets work to get rid of them, then
the road ahead will be much clearer and people will feel better, and other problems can be addressed.

JLM

#637

Re: Free will versus determinism

Sep 18th, 2010

[QUOTE=talloola
From my perspective, wars and drugs alone cause most of the damage, lets work to get rid of them, then
the road ahead will be much clearer and people will feel better, and other problems can be addressed.[/QUOTE]

Absolutely, but at least with wars you are defending something, drugs are totally subversive (members of my family have been ruined by them) and I personally think we should do whatever it takes (hanging the importers and pushers) to rid us of this scurge. Until I was personally affected I never had an inkling of the havoc they cause, so if you haven't been personally affected - no need to respond.

Spacemonkey

#638

Re: Free will versus determinism

Oct 11th, 2010

Hello again, Janis. I see you're back online again and repeating the exact same mistakes. Accusing people who disagree with you of not understanding or of not even reading the material, misusing terminology even after correction, playing the victim, accusing people of bias, ignoring everyone's opinion that the book is very poorly written and instead blaming the readers for not giving Lessans a chance, and opting for screeds of cut & paste in place of actually explaining anything yourself.

You've been at this literally for years now and have presented the same material in exactly the same flawed manner at over a dozen different forums, and yet every single time you've received the same overwhelmingly negative response. It is my serious and honest opinion that you should cease this behavior immediately and seek professional help from a qualified mental health professional. You have an unhealthy emotional attachment to this material, leading to disturbingly obsessive/compulsive, repetitive, and completely unproductive behavior which, by your own admission, takes up a great deal of your time and energy.

Seriously, seek help. It's time to let Lessans and his book go.

JLM

#639

Re: Free will versus determinism

Oct 11th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by Spacemonkey

Hello again, Janis. I see you're back online again and repeating the exact same mistakes. Accusing people who disagree with you of not understanding or of not even reading the material, misusing terminology even after correction, playing the victim, accusing people of bias, ignoring everyone's opinion that the book is very poorly written and instead blaming the readers for not giving Lessans a chance, and opting for screeds of cut & paste in place of actually explaining anything yourself.

You've been at this literally for years now and have presented the same material in exactly the same flawed manner at over a dozen different forums, and yet every single time you've received the same overwhelmingly negative response. It is my serious and honest opinion that you should cease this behavior immediately and seek professional help from a qualified mental health professional. You have an unhealthy emotional attachment to this material, leading to disturbingly obsessive/compulsive, repetitive, and completely unproductive behavior which, by your own admission, takes up a great deal of your time and energy.

Seriously, seek help. It's time to let Lessans and his book go.

I don't believe it.

peacegirl

#640

Re: Free will versus determinism

Oct 11th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by Spacemonkey

Hello again, Janis. I see you're back online again and repeating the exact same mistakes. Accusing people who disagree with you of not understanding or of not even reading the material, misusing terminology even after correction, playing the victim, accusing people of bias, ignoring everyone's opinion that the book is very poorly written and instead blaming the readers for not giving Lessans a chance, and opting for screeds of cut & paste in place of actually explaining anything yourself.

Before I answer, I want to say hi.

I remember you as being a very analytical thinker and I enjoyed our conversation. But I disagree with you in all respects. I am not making mistakes, number one, even though based on our conversation regarding the eyes, there was an assumption that the photons that made up the image were traveling at a certain rate of speed, which Lessans never said at all. It was my personal attempt to reconcile the two opposing theories or models. Secondly, I am not misusing any terminology because it was qualified in the introduction by the author. Thirdly, it is true that we all have bias. We cannot avoid it. This in itself would not exclude someone from understanding the discovery as long as he can put his bias aside temporarily. Fourthly, I do not cut and paste in place of explaining the book. I have bent over backwards to try to get the points across from my own understanding.

Quote: Originally Posted by spacemonkey

You've been at this literally for years now and have presented the same material in exactly the same flawed manner at over a dozen different forums, and yet every single time you've received the same overwhelmingly negative response. It is my serious and honest opinion that you should cease this behavior immediately and seek professional help from a qualified mental health professional. You have an unhealthy emotional attachment to this material, leading to disturbingly obsessive/compulsive, repetitive, and completely unproductive behavior which, by your own admission, takes up a great deal of your time and energy.

Seriously, seek help. It's time to let Lessans and his book go.

Just because I am repeating myself to new forums does not make me in need of professional help. You are losing your objectivity. BTW, how would you know my internet history unless you have searched me out? This thread was long gone until you just brought it back to life. Why would you do this if you have no interest? Spacemonkey, you really don't have to worry about me. If it's flawed then eventually it will die out no matter what I do, and I would accept that. But it won't die out because there is an intrigue with the idea of a faultless world. Until people show no desire to learn what this discovery is all about, I will continue to try to reach people who I believe have the capability of understanding it. My will is not free to do otherwise.

Last edited by peacegirl; Oct 11th, 2010 at 10:15 AM..

Spacemonkey

#641

Re: Free will versus determinism

Oct 11th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by peacegirl

My will is not free to do otherwise.

This is why you should be seeking professional help. Seriously, your behavior is quite disturbing. You are doing exactly the same things in exactly the same way as if you'd never been through it all before. It's as if you've learnt nothing at all from your previous attempts. You receive exactly the same objections every time, and yet you don't anticipate them or develop improved (or even different) responses at all.

Just let it go already. For your own sake. This is not healthy behavior.

Murdock

#642

Re: Free will versus determinism

Oct 11th, 2010

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein

*sigh* Janis...

peacegirl

#643

Re: Free will versus determinism

Oct 11th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by Spacemonkey

This is why you should be seeking professional help. Seriously, your behavior is quite disturbing. You are doing exactly the same things in exactly the same way as if you'd never been through it all before. It's as if you've learnt nothing at all from your previous attempts. You receive exactly the same objections every time, and yet you don't anticipate them or develop improved (or even different) responses at all.

Just let it go already. For your own sake. This is not healthy behavior.

It's not true that I have not developed better responses. Furthermore, I believe his premises are a priori based on astute observation and careful reasoning, and can be justified on those grounds. To conclude that there is nothing valuable in this text because I am getting the same reactions on these type forums is placing the cart before the horse. I hope you don't come to this flimsy conclusion because it doesn't prove this knowledge wrong.

Quote: Originally Posted by Murdock

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein

*sigh* Janis...

I agree that doing the same thing over and over is not getting me anywhere (even though there is rhyme to my reason), but for lack of advertising dollars to do more, I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Last edited by peacegirl; Oct 11th, 2010 at 11:31 AM..

JLM

#644

Re: Free will versus determinism

Oct 11th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by Murdock

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
Albert Einstein

*sigh* Janis...

It's ironic- Five minutes ago I was thinking of posting the same thing, glad you saved me from having to respond to this tiresome thread.

peacegirl

-2

#645

Re: Free will versus determinism

Oct 11th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by JLM

It's ironic- Five minutes ago I was thinking of posting the same thing, glad you saved me from having to respond to this tiresome thread.

I agree with you JLM, but only because the people in here did not give this knowledge half a chance.

Murdock

#646

Re: Free will versus determinism

Oct 11th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by JLM

It's ironic- Five minutes ago I was thinking of posting the same thing, glad you saved me from having to respond to this tiresome thread.

It would serve Janis better to just cut-and-paste her replies from the other forums she has visited, because reading her responses here is tragic deja vu.

To Janis: It is intellectually dishonest to come here and do exactly the same thing you have done several times on other forums, which is (a) not better preparing yourself for the reactions you KNOW you will get, (b) not trusting that other posters are intelligent enough to understand Lessans' own words, (c) not accepting the possibility that other posters might be more intelligent than Lessans' was, etc.

It's sad, really.

peacegirl

#647

Re: Free will versus determinism

Oct 11th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by Murdock

It would serve Janis better to just cut-and-paste her replies from the other forums she has visited, because reading her responses here is tragic deja vu.

To Janis: It is intellectually dishonest to come here and do exactly the same thing you have done several times on other forums, which is (a) not better preparing yourself for the reactions you KNOW you will get, (b) not trusting that other posters are intelligent enough to understand Lessans' own words, (c) not accepting the possibility that other posters might be more intelligent than Lessans' was, etc.

It's sad, really.

Murdock, I remember you very well. How have you been? Just want you to know that people have already googled everything they can about me, but what does this prove? Nothing at all. Imagine if Thomas Edison took the opinions of the masses, who didn't grasp what he was demonstrating, and as a result he lost confidence in his conclusions. We would still be in the dark. I will do everything not to let that happen to Lessans, even though talking on forums is the wrong way to go because there is a psychological dynamic at work. In response to your criticism, a) I have prepared myself for people's responses to the best of my ability. I am always trying to improve my communication skills. b) I never said that people are not intelligent enough to understand Lessans own words. In fact, the reason I came to these forums was because I believe these philosophers are very capable of understanding this discovery, and still do. 3) This is not a matter of who is more intelligent than whom. This is not a competition. This is an effort to bring important knowledge to light; that's all.

Last edited by peacegirl; Oct 11th, 2010 at 12:16 PM..

Spacemonkey

#648

Re: Free will versus determinism

Oct 11th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by peacegirl

I will do everything not to let that happen to Lessans, even though talking on forums is the wrong way to go.

You were saying this exact same thing years ago! So why do you keep doing something that you know doesn't work? And why do you keep doing it in exactly the same way?

peacegirl

-2

#649

Re: Free will versus determinism

Oct 11th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by Spacemonkey

You were saying this exact same thing years ago! So why do you keep doing something that you know doesn't work? And why do you keep doing it in exactly the same way?

Spacemonkey, how many ways can a person explain one plus one equals two? I am trying in every which way to clarify these concepts. Just because I have not found the best way yet, does not make these concepts inaccurate. Have you read the entire book? Here is the address again just in case the mood happens to strike you:

--

Spacemonkey

#650

Re: Free will versus determinism

Oct 11th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by peacegirl

Spacemonkey, how many ways can a person explain one plus one equals two? I am trying in every which way to clarify these concepts. Just because I have not found the best way yet, does not make these concepts inaccurate. Have you read the entire book? Here is the address again just in case the mood happens to strike you:

--

Apparently replying to you in any way only encourages you. Please seek help, Janis. You really need to just let this nonsense go.

For anyone else reading this, I recommend you take a look at her previous "New Discovery" threads archived in the Pseudoscience forum at the Freethought & Rationalism Discussion Board (freeratioDOTorg) to see just how impervious to reason Janis really is.

peacegirl

-2

#651

Re: Free will versus determinism

Oct 11th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by Spacemonkey

Apparently replying to you in any way only encourages you. Please seek help, Janis. You really need to just let this nonsense go.

For anyone else reading this, I recommend you take a look at her previous "New Discovery" threads archived in the Pseudoscience forum at the Freethought & Rationalism Discussion Board (freeratioDOTorg) to see just how impervious to reason Janis really is.

Oh my gosh, I can't believe that you are using the responses by DancingWithCoffeeCups and others as a standard to judge this work. Now you are acting just like the rest, with the same herd mentality. That saddens me. So I guess you've said what you needed to say. I really don't think anyone is interested in your suggestion. But if this discovery is proven to be right, then everyone will flock to these archives.

Last edited by peacegirl; Oct 11th, 2010 at 01:38 PM..

Spacemonkey

#652

Re: Free will versus determinism

Oct 11th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by peacegirl

Oh my gosh, I can't believe that you are using the responses by DancingWithCoffeeCup and others as a standard to judge this work.

Get a grip, Janis. I'm not asking anyone to judge Lessans' work by anyone else's responses. I'm asking people to take a look at YOUR past posting history before wasting their time trying to talk any sense into you.

peacegirl

-1

#653

Re: Free will versus determinism

Oct 11th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by Spacemonkey

Get a grip, Janis. I'm not asking anyone to judge Lessans' work by anyone else's responses. I'm asking people to take a look at YOUR past posting history before wasting their time trying to talk any sense into you.

But don't you see that that is a false method of judging someone's work, especially when no one in that forum actually read the book? Don't you see the flaw here? Spacemonkey, first of all I am not sure who told you to come here and try to convince people not to talk to me? This thread was over long ago. Ironically, it is YOU who is stirring up the very discussion you are telling people to avoid. I know you are much more logical than that. In fact, I thank you for trying to explain a priori to me. You were sincere in teaching me what this word meant, and I do appreciate that. I learned a lot from that thread, even though the whole discussion revolved around the eyes and light. I think I confused things because Lessans said that, according to his observations, no images were reflected at all, nor did he believe that the photons (i.e. the basket itself; was it you who gave that analogy?) were converted into images in the brain. That's why he said 'time' was not involved in sight, as it is in hearing. But that's past history. I am more interested in explaining why man's will is not free and what this means for all mankind.

Spacemonkey

#654

Re: Free will versus determinism

Oct 11th, 2010

Quote: Originally Posted by peacegirl

But don't you see that that is a false method of judging someone's work...

No. Examining YOUR past posting behavior is an entirely legitimate means of judging YOUR inability to engage in anything even approaching rational thought when it comes to discussing this material which has such a disturbing hold over your mind. Good bye, Janis.

Ron in Regina

#655

Re: Free will versus determinism

Oct 12th, 2010

This thread as it was active on this forum, with members from this forum,
died a natural death 3 weeks ago.

As such, the moderation here has chosen to close this topic, and invites its
participants to either branch out and participate in one of our many other
threads, or alternatively, return to the forums from which this personal
battle arose.

Any further discourse on this book, or commentary on this thread in a
new thread, will not be tolerated. Thank you.

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