Define Human Shields?

earth_as_one

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Recently North Korea made this statement:

2010-11-28
...the North expressed “regret” over civilian fatalities through a commentary carried on Saturday by its official Korean Central News Agency. However, it said, “The responsibility lies with the inhumane treatment by the enemies who, to form ‘human shields,’ placed civilians within the military facilities and around the artillery positions.”...

http://www.koreaherald.com/national/Detail.jsp?newsMLId=20101128000395

IMO, The statement sounds similar to Israel's position regarding Palestinian civilians:

...1. This study examines how Hamas and the other terrorist organizations in the Gaza Strip make extensive use of Palestinian civilians as human shields. It shows how the terrorist organizations constructed a vast military infrastructure in the Gaza Strip, including a large arsenal of rocket and mortar shells used to target the southern Israeli population (in 2001-2008 more than 8,000 rockets and mortar shell were fired into populated Israeli areas). The terrorists' military infrastructure was hidden in and around civilian homes and dispersed to locations scattered around the Gaza Strip, home to an estimated more than 1.4 million people, one of the most densely populated areas on earth....

Hamas Exploitation of Civilians as Human Shields
Amnesty International said this:
...Israeli soldiers and Palestinian fighters are endangering the lives of Palestinian civilians ...using them as human shields....Israeli soldiers...taken up positions in a number of Palestinian homes, forcing families to stay in a ground floor room...use the rest of their house as a military base and sniper position..." “...increases the risk to the Palestinian families concerned ...they are effectively being used as human shields.” Both Israeli soldiers and Palestinian gunmen ... fire at each other from areas close to civilian homes...Israeli forces have bombed civilian homes and other buildings, arguing that they had been used as cover by gunmen firing at Israeli targets, although Palestinian fighters usually vacate the areas as soon as they have fired. “The Israeli army is well-aware that Palestinian gunmen usually leave the area after having fired and that any reprisal attack against these homes will in most cases cause harm to civilians -- not gunmen.”...“Fighters on both sides must not carry out attacks from civilian areas but when they do take cover behind a civilian house or building to fire it does not make that building and its civilian inhabitants a legitimate military target. Any such attacks are unlawful,”...
Gaza civilians endangered by the military tactics of both sides | Amnesty International

If a soldier is guilty of using civilian as a human shield, what should the punishment be?
Israeli soldiers who used Palestinian boy, 9, as a human shield avoid jail | World news | The Guardian
 

Goober

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Recently North Korea made this statement:



IMO, The statement sounds similar to Israel's position regarding Palestinian civilians:

Amnesty International said this:
Gaza civilians endangered by the military tactics of both sides | Amnesty International

If a soldier is guilty of using civilian as a human shield, what should the punishment be?
Israeli soldiers who used Palestinian boy, 9, as a human shield avoid jail | World news | The Guardian

Yessiree - It is only Isreali's and South Koreans that would do this. Yupper -
 

Unforgiven

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Doesn't look like that at all to me. The military site is on top of the hill and the village, south east of that on the southern shore. A kilometre away. A human shield is when you put the artillery on the roof or alleyway directly in the village, like Palestinians often do. Not on the highest point of the island a kilometre away.
 

Goober

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gerryh

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Recently North Korea made this statement:



IMO, The statement sounds similar to Israel's position regarding Palestinian civilians:

Amnesty International said this:
Gaza civilians endangered by the military tactics of both sides | Amnesty International

If a soldier is guilty of using civilian as a human shield, what should the punishment be?
Israeli soldiers who used Palestinian boy, 9, as a human shield avoid jail | World news | The Guardian


:roll:


As has been pointed out, the village is a fair distance from the military installation. I would hazard a guess that one of 2 things came into play since the village got nailed. Either the NK are really lousy shots, or they targeted the village on purpose.
 

taxslave

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:roll:


As has been pointed out, the village is a fair distance from the military installation. I would hazard a guess that one of 2 things came into play since the village got nailed. Either the NK are really lousy shots, or they targeted the village on purpose.

The problem with lowest bidder "Made in China" weapons. Like most of their cheap junk accuracy does not count.
 

Goober

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The problem with lowest bidder "Made in China" weapons. Like most of their cheap junk accuracy does not count.
EAO was looking for a definition of Human Shield

One would be the following.

Basically it boils down to this - i have to double tap the poor sod you are holding in front of you to give you a double tap.

Pretty clear to me.
 

earth_as_one

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Doesn't look like that at all to me. The military site is on top of the hill and the village, south east of that on the southern shore. A kilometre away. A human shield is when you put the artillery on the roof or alleyway directly in the village, like Palestinians often do. Not on the highest point of the island a kilometre away.


I didn't know the Palestinians had artillery, let alone put it on roof tops. I think you are misinformed. The overwhelming majority of Palestinian mortars and rockets were fired from vacant fields next to the wall. Militants stand the rocket up with two poles like a tri-pod, set the timer and run away. By the time the rocket is launched, the militants are long gone and nothing of value remains at the site. If civilian structures exist nearby, the IDF often takes them out, even its an apartment building and blame the militants for using human shields. During operation Cast Lead, the IDF took out hospitals, fire stations, schools, police training facilities, universities, government buildings... none of which had artillery pieces on their roofs. If you have a link supporting your viewpoint, please share.

:roll:

As has been pointed out, the village is a fair distance from the military installation. I would hazard a guess that one of 2 things came into play since the village got nailed. Either the NK are really lousy shots, or they targeted the village on purpose.

How do artillery shells and other military supplies get on this island? Unless South Korea uses helicopters, the supplies come by boat. I saw the images and only the area adjacent to the water front was flattened. I'm guessing the craters used to be a place to land boats. Most of the village looks intact. Either the NK are really lousy shots and missed most of the village or they were only aiming for the waterfront. Amazingly, only two civilians died, and all civilian casualties were on military sites. Even though some houses adjacent to the harbor were flattened, the destruction does not appear to be associated with any casualties. My guess is the North Koreans shelled military installations first, then the harbor, giving citizens plenty of time to seek shelter.

How else can you explain the localized damage and no civilian casualties in the village???

Either the North Koreans were aiming for the harbor front, or the harbor was extremely unlucky.
 
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earth_as_one

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EAO was looking for a definition of Human Shield

One would be the following.

Basically it boils down to this - i have to double tap the poor sod you are holding in front of you to give you a double tap.

Pretty clear to me.

How about putting civilians in a trench next to artillery as it shells the civilians friends and neighbors?

Or what if a soldier forces a nine year old to open bags at gun point to search for explosives?

How about dropping a one ton bomb on an apartment building killing everyone in the building and a few more in the neighborhood because one person of interest lives in the apartment.

Do any of these examples meet your definition of human shields.

... just had an idea for the use of 4 x 9 volt batteries - I promise it will be stimulating, so much so that sparks would fly between us. Just asking ya know.

Ur Pal Uber Goober
off topic. Please post this crap here:
http://forums.canadiancontent.net/wreck-beach/97288-earth-one-d-bag.html
 

Goober

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How about putting civilians in a trench next to artillery as it shells the civilians friends and neighbors?

Or what if a soldier forces a nine year old to open bags at gun point to search for explosives?

How about dropping a one ton bomb on an apartment building killing everyone in the building and a few more in the neighborhood because one person of interest lives in the apartment.

Do any of these examples meet your definition of human shields.


How about using hospitials and schools along with other like facilites to launch rocket attacks then run away to find shelter. Does that fit your description.
 

earth_as_one

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I am unaware of a rocket or mortar being fired from a hospital. The militants did use an abandoned schoolyard to launch rockets and missiles after it had already been destroyed by the IDF.

How about putting civilians in a trench next to artillery as it shells the civilians friends and neighbors?

Or what if a soldier forces a nine year old to open bags at gun point to search for explosives?

How about dropping a one ton bomb on an apartment building killing everyone in the building and a few more in the neighborhood because one person of interest lives in the apartment.

Do any of these examples meet your definition of human shields.
 

ironsides

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Feb 13, 2009
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Recently North Korea made this statement:



IMO, The statement sounds similar to Israel's position regarding Palestinian civilians:

Amnesty International said this:
Gaza civilians endangered by the military tactics of both sides | Amnesty International

If a soldier is guilty of using civilian as a human shield, what should the punishment be?
Israeli soldiers who used Palestinian boy, 9, as a human shield avoid jail | World news | The Guardian
Why Does the Left Hate Israel?


For decades, most American Jews have believed there were far greater threats from the fringe right than the fringe left in this country. While this view may have been reasonable in the past, it is certainly not so today. The fringe right still exists— the neo—Nazis in Northwest Idaho, Matthew Hale, and David Duke, and the remnants of the KKK. But the views of the fringe right have been marginalized by their repudiation by virtually all mainstream elements on the political right.
The fringe left, on the other hand, has evolved into a broader left, and become more mainstream. The political perspective of this new left is vehemently anti—Israel, and the power and reach of this movement represent a real threat to Israel, and by extension to Jews who support Israel.


WHY DOES THE LEFT HATE ISRAEL?
I believe there are several reasons:
1. It is an easy way to express one's hatred for America.
2. Israel is viewed as an outpost of colonialism , and an active practitioner of it.
3. Israel is a western nation, and hence can be judged by the left. Israel is not protected by cultural relativism, as the Arabs are.
4. Leftist Christian churches can escape any lingering guilt about the Holocaust, by turning Israel into a villain. Some leftist churches hate Israel because they think this will help protect their members in the holy land— in other words they feel threatened.
5. Ferocious Muslim hatred of Israel and the Jews reinforces the natural cowardice of many on the left who go along with the Muslims to stay out of their line of fire.
6. Jewish leftists are prominent in the anti—Israel movement. This opens the floodgates for everybody else.
7. Israel is attacked because the secular left is appalled by the influence of religious settlers and their biblical connections to the land of Israel, and by the support for Israel by evangelical Christians, and Christian Zionists.


http://www.americanthinker.com/printpage/?url=http://www.americanthinker.com/2004/01/why_does_the_left_hate_israel.html


 

Unforgiven

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I didn't know the Palestinians had artillery, let alone put it on roof tops.[/IMG]Either the North Koreans were aiming for the harbor front, or the harbor was extremely unlucky.







Not quite as far afield as you insist they are.
As for bombing the harbour, it's a harbour full of civilians. Those are civilian buildings.
 

Praxius

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If a soldier is guilty of using civilian as a human shield, what should the punishment be?

Simple.... if a soldier used a civilian to block bullets, shrapnel, knives, explosion or anything else to save their sorry ass, then they deserve to die.

If anything, civilians are supposed to be protected by soldiers and those soldiers are supposed to defend their lives and security with their own lives..... as a soldier, to turn around and use a civilian to save your skin from taking bullets or otherwise dying, means you're on borrowed time, since in any other circumstance, those bullets would have been for you and it would have been you who died.

A civilian isn't trained to be a soldier, they did not sign up to sacrifice their lives in a time of war, or not in a time of war..... the soldier did. The Soldier is supposed to be the trained professional..... and when they stoop to such a low level as to use civilians' lives to reduce their own losses or their own lives directly, then they're no longer soldiers.

They're a disgrace.

Of course this is just me speaking generally towards the presented question. In regards to the claims made in the above particular report, I'll have to wait for more information before I make any calls/opinions on that matter.

Added:

In Regards to whether or not NK deliberately targeted a civilian village or not:

I still agree that it is wrong to deliberately target civilians, no matter who is doing it, so if NK deliberately targeted, I feel they'd be in the wrong.

But..... for those who agree with my above view towards deliberately targeting civilians but at the same time, justify the US's actions of nuking two civilian cities in WWII...... you guys need to get your priorities in check, because whatever excuses or justifications you can come up with for the US doing what they did, you can apply the same excuses to NK towards what they did.

A deliberate attack on civilians by a military force is an action to inflict fear and panic in your enemy's country as a whole and to demoralize them into thinking they're not safe and their military can not protect them...... that was one of the reasons why the US nuked two cities and planned to nuke more until Japan surrendered (besides not wanting to loose more soldiers in a ground assault)

So if the US and other allied nations can justify their actions against civilians, even on a grand scale as to nuke two cities without any form of warning to allow any civilians (Women, Children, etc.) to flee..... then everybody else can justify their own similar actions against civilians.

I don't think it's right and I still greatly oppose direct attacks on civilians..... but when you open the door to act a certain way and justify it as not being wrong, don't expect others to not follow in your footsteps someday.

And for the record, no I am not directly linking the US as being responsible for what NK did..... nor am I linking the US to what Israel or Gaza or the West Bank does...... I'm only linking the mentality.

It's always wrong when it's your enemy doing horrible things.... but when you do it, somehow it's not the same thing.
 
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Goober

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I am unaware of a rocket or mortar being fired from a hospital. The militants did use an abandoned schoolyard to launch rockets and missiles after it had already been destroyed by the IDF.

How about putting civilians in a trench next to artillery as it shells the civilians friends and neighbors?

Or what if a soldier forces a nine year old to open bags at gun point to search for explosives?

How about dropping a one ton bomb on an apartment building killing everyone in the building and a few more in the neighborhood because one person of interest lives in the apartment.

Do any of these examples meet your definition of human shields.

The 1st the words in you post clearly state your position "I am unaware"
 

taxslave

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I am unaware of a rocket or mortar being fired from a hospital. The militants did use an abandoned schoolyard to launch rockets and missiles after it had already been destroyed by the IDF.

How about putting civilians in a trench next to artillery as it shells the civilians friends and neighbors?

Or what if a soldier forces a nine year old to open bags at gun point to search for explosives?

How about dropping a one ton bomb on an apartment building killing everyone in the building and a few more in the neighborhood because one person of interest lives in the apartment.

Do any of these examples meet your definition of human shields.

You seem to be unaware of a whole lot of reality.
 

Goober

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I am unaware of a rocket or mortar being fired from a hospital. The militants did use an abandoned schoolyard to launch rockets and missiles after it had already been destroyed by the IDF.

How about putting civilians in a trench next to artillery as it shells the civilians friends and neighbors?

Or what if a soldier forces a nine year old to open bags at gun point to search for explosives?

How about dropping a one ton bomb on an apartment building killing everyone in the building and a few more in the neighborhood because one person of interest lives in the apartment.

Do any of these examples meet your definition of human shields.

Do you agree or disagree that Hezbollah uses mobile rocket launchers, mounted on truck beds, fire the missile from high population areas, then try to avoid Israeli Air or Artillery retaliation.

Remember that triangulation of a missile or artillery round can be done quickly and is highly accurate as to the location

So an easy question - Agree or disagree?
 

petros

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How many of the former "human sheilds" turn around and seek revenge with the duds that didn't explode when hitting the ground?
 

earth_as_one

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Do you agree or disagree that Hezbollah uses mobile rocket launchers, mounted on truck beds, fire the missile from high population areas, then try to avoid Israeli Air or Artillery retaliation.

Remember that triangulation of a missile or artillery round can be done quickly and is highly accurate as to the location

So an easy question - Agree or disagree?

Agree/Disagree. I believe this information to be accurate. Read starting at pg 59.
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/a...3d7-11dd-8743-d305bea2b2c7/mde020332006en.pdf

Since Israel has demonstrated little regard for non-Jewish civilians, Hezbollah using them as human shields would be an ineffective tactic. In the few cases where civilians complained about the presence of Hezbollah fighters, those fighters moved. Hezbollah is a political party and sensitive to complaint by civilians regarding their activities. Let me know when Hezbollah starts hiding behind Jews and Israelis the same way the IDF hides behind nine-year-old Arab children.