Grandmother Blows herself up

[thomaska]

I just read that a 64 year old woman blew herself up in JEBALIYA, Gaza Strip.

Her story sounds pretty tragic also:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,231618,00.html

However, being the irreverant ass that I am, I was wondering if there are any "virginal" benefits that await female suicide bombers?

Or do they get the shaft(no pun intended) and just have to settle for martyrdom while everyone else gets sex slaves for the rest of eternity?

 

[Curiosity]

Thomaska

A title Grandmother Blows Herself Up.... by Thomaska......

I just knew I shouldn't look....but I did..... now I am getting back up on the chair.......hahaha....

It is a tragic story but that seems to be a way of life in the sandbox. Grandma would probably like two items only:
A washer and a dryer. Although the dryer isn't mandatory. Perhaps a washer and a shower?

 

[earth_as_one]

Your difficulty understanding the motivation behind this attack results from your misperception of why Palestinians are willing to sacrifice their lives to kill Israeli soldiers.

But a clue is in your article:

...The couple's home was demolished by the Israeli army... Fatma and her husband get by in a spartan lean-to tacked onto the complex of buildings housing the extended An-Najar family, with a mattress on the floor and little else....

"They destroyed her house, they killed her grandson — my son," said Fatheya, one of her two daughters. "Another grandson is in a wheelchair with an amputated leg," she said...

The answer to the question why would a grandmother do such a thing is here:

The Making of a Suicide Attacker
Are Palestinians Human?
By Sam Bahour and Leila Bahour

http://www.counterpunch.org/sbahour8.html

Are Palestinians human? Its a good question. Each of us has a personal answer for that question depending on our perceptions. If you percieve Palestinians as fellow human beings then you would feel their suffering and mourn their deaths.

If you are aware of their suffering yet feel nothing, then I suppose you have your answer.

 

[Sassylassie]

What about those of us who feel for the suffering and pain for both the Palestinian People and Israel's People?

 

[Curiosity]

Good question Sassy

Earth is still at the stage where you have to pick one only - there is no room for all at his/her inn.

 

[gopher]

Killing oneself is expressly forbidden in Koran, Sura 4:33 (Alan Jones translation). Therefore, this grandmother has no hope of divine reward for her action.

 

[earth_as_one]

I don't support any of the belligerents in this conflict. I take the side of the innocent victims. I do not support what this woman did. I posted links to explain the motivation of suicide bombers.

The subjectivity of our news on this subject is a huge part of the problem. In many senses media bias, misinformation and propaganda are part of this conflict. Both Israelis and Palestinians suffer needless casualties as a result of Israel's occupation and both sides would benefit from a fair and just peace. But how can one judge what is fair or just if all you know is one side of the story? Palestinians should be heard and their viewpoint, considered.

 

[Curiosity]

I don't support any of the belligerents in this conflict. I take the side of the innocent victims. I do not support what this woman did. I posted links to explain the motivation of suicide bombers.

The subjectivity of our news on this subject is a huge part of the problem. In many senses media bias, misinformation and propaganda are part of this conflict. Both Israelis and Palestinians suffer needless casualties as a result of Israel's occupation and both sides would benefit from a fair and just peace. But how can one judge what is fair or just if all you know is one side of the story? Palestinians should be heard and their viewpoint, considered.

Earthasone....oh right...

Of course you don't support any one belligerent but your posts decidedly indicate whom you believe to be "innocent victims".... you have made your sympathys known in many of your posts and especially your last sentence here....

Palestines should be heard and the viewpoint, considered.

Are you saying we should condone any groups who choose to blow themselves up while killing innocent bystanders are worth negotiating with - or are they insane? That we should consider their intellect and points of view? Hardly.

Those serious for peace will come to the table and discuss with weapons of tongue, heart, mind and a willingness to understand. There is no other way to negotiate solution.

 

[thomaska]

Your difficulty understanding the motivation behind this attack results from your misperception of why Palestinians are willing to sacrifice their lives to kill Israeli soldiers.

But a clue is in your article:



The answer to the question why would a grandmother do such a thing is here:



Are Palestinians human? Its a good question. Each of us has a personal answer for that question depending on our perceptions. If you percieve Palestinians as fellow human beings then you would feel their suffering and mourn their deaths.

If you are aware of their suffering yet feel nothing, then I suppose you have your answer.

Thanks for the dissertation about "Grand-ma".

I don't remember writing that I didn't understand it, in fact I said her story was pretty tragic. However as Gopher said:

Killing oneself is expressly forbidden in Koran, Sura 4:33 (Alan Jones translation). Therefore, this grandmother has no hope of divine reward for her action.

So that answers my question just fine. It was kind of a rhetorical question, as I think anyone blowing themselves up is stupid in the extreme. In your rush to defend the poor Palestinians, you may have missed the "tounge-in-cheekness" of my question.

 

[Zzarchov]

So its forbidden by the Koran? Big-woopidy-****.

Murder is forbidden in the bible, you kill my family and I'll and I'll drown you in a piss filled toilet with a smile on my face, even if I get killed afterwards.

This isnt' some stupid religious fight, maybe it started that way, for the most part its individuals getting shat on and taking their vengeance.

Her family was killed, she killed some people back. Did it solve anything? Nope, neither did killing her family in the first place either though.

She's no better or worse than the other side really.

 

[earth_as_one]

Earthasone....oh right...

Of course you don't support any one belligerent but your posts decidedly indicate whom you believe to be "innocent victims".... you have made your sympathys known in many of your posts and especially your last sentence here....

Palestines should be heard and the viewpoint, considered.

Are you saying we should condone any groups who choose to blow themselves up while killing innocent bystanders are worth negotiating with - or are they insane? That we should consider their intellect and points of view? Hardly.

Those serious for peace will come to the table and discuss with weapons of tongue, heart, mind and a willingness to understand. There is no other way to negotiate solution.

Most of the four million Palestinians are innocent victims. So are most Israelis. The only people who can't claim to be innocent victims are the minority on both sides who commit acts of violence. The grandmother was an innocent victim until she committed this act of violence.

I not only supprt the innocent victims, but I also support being informed. Many people here only know one side of the story. If I thought the Israeli viewpoint wasn't heard, I'd be posting their viewpoints. But its the Palestinian viewpoint which is under reported.

The Palestinian viewpoint which doesn't get equal treatment in this country. Israel has manipulated most Canadians with a sophisticated and well financed propaganda campaign.

I have no problem with people knowing all the facts and then deciding they support Israelis over Palestinians. I don't choose sides.

My problem is with misinformed people who think they know what's going on but really only know Israeli propaganda. That describes the majority of Canadians.

For example, only a minority of Canadians are aware that from January 2005 until July 2006, Hamas maintained a self declared unilateral ceasefire, while Israel continually abducted and assassinated Hamas leaders. Our news didn't report this fact.

Lots of facts about this conflict which would portray Israel negatively or Palestinians positively don't make our news. Having an opinion based on one side's propaganda, makes you manipulated, not informed.

Other facts:

Israel violated the "Road Map to Peace" ceasefire first by a botched assassination attempt on a Hamas leader which resulted in innocent civilian deaths.

Israel assassinated the moderate Hamas leader who advocated peace with Israel and was responsible for getting all the major militant groups to agree to the "Road Map to Peace" ceasefire.

Israel never stopped razing and annexing Palestinian property in violation of the "Road Map to Peace".

For more than 50 years Israel never stopped building and expanding Jewish only settlements on land reserved for a Palestinian state. It continued doing this in violation of the "Road Map to Peace".

Israel allows Jewish settlers and its soldiers to murder Palestinians with impunity. I can point to many shocking examples which don't make our news.

....and so on.

If all you know about this conflict is just what Israel wants you to know, then you are manipulated, not informed.

 

[Curiosity]

earthasone

You can't even bring yourself in your "equality sharing" to give the same "victims" speech for Palestinians and Israelis. People who blow themselves up aren't promoting peace - but victimhood which in the long run is a useless and despised method of getting things done.

You write:

The Palestinian viewpoint which doesn't get equal treatment in this country. Israel has manipulated most Canadians with a sophisticated and well financed propaganda campaign.

I have no problem with people knowing all the facts .....

Good - then I suggest you do more research and learn that Palestinians have had their voice resonate as loudly as Israelis' in the west - you are talking from an emotional viewpoint rather than fact.

 

[jimmoyer]

For example, only a minority of Canadians are aware that from January 2005 until July 2006, Hamas maintained a self declared unilateral ceasefire, while Israel continually abducted and assassinated Hamas leaders. Our news didn't report this fact.
------------------------------------------------------earth_as_one--------------------------------------------------

This factoid begs to be assailed. It's veracity begs questioning.

For the following reasons:

1. Do you know what Hamas did just before taking such a noble stand ?
It's like someone who hit you and suddenly says, Wait ! I'm not going to hit you any more, so you
can't hit me.

2. Do you know what this noble self-imposed peace covers up ?
A build up for their next attack.
Allows preparation and planning and repairing their wounds.
Bringing in more rockets from Iran.

3. And then one must really read what both sides were doing, and it was far from a peace
you or I can recognize.

4. You read some statement by Hamas about a self-imposed peace without analysis, without the same
critical questioning you apply to the zionist Isreali statements.

5. This lack of critical questioning, this rational doubt that is absent on Hamas is most likely
a natural compensating reaction to the past (no longer present) preponderance of Israeli supporters.

 

[earth_as_one]

earthasone

You can't even bring yourself in your "equality sharing" to give the same "victims" speech for Palestinians and Israelis. People who blow themselves up aren't promoting peace - but victimhood which in the long run is a useless and despised method of getting things done.

You write:
Good - then I suggest you do more research and learn that Palestinians have had their voice resonate as loudly as Israelis' in the west - you are talking from an emotional viewpoint rather than fact.

Most Palestinians and Israelis are innocent victims. But the suffering of innocent Israelis and innocent Palestinians is far from equal. When Palestinians demolish an equal number of Israeli homes, annex an equal amount of Israeli property and kill as many innocent civilians I will say the scale of suffering on both sides is equal.

Israeli and Palestinian Children Killed Since September 29, 2000122 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 836 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000. (View Source)



Israelis and Palestinians Killed Since September 29, 2000
1,084 Israelis and 4,286 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000. (View Source)

Israelis and Palestinians Injured Since September 29, 20007,633 Israelis and 30,804 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000. (View Source)



Daily U.S. Assistance to Israel and the Palestinians
The U.S. gives $15,139,178 per day to the Israeli government and military and $232,290 per day to Palestinian NGO’s. (View Source)

UN Resolutions Targeting Israel and the Palestinians
Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none. (View Source)



Political Prisoners and Detainees
1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 9,599 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel. (View Source)

Demolitions of Israeli and Palestinian Homes0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 4,170 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since September 29, 2000. (View Source)



Israeli and Palestinian Unemployment Rates
The Israeli unemployment rate is 9%, while the Palestinian unemployment is estimated at 40%. (View Source)

New Settlements Built (March 2001 - July 2003)60+ new Jewish-only settlements have been built on confiscated Palestinian land between March 2001 and July 11, 2003. There have been 0 cases of Palestinians confiscating Israeli land and building settlements. (View Source)

Regarding media accuracy:

I. Coverage of All Deaths

We found a significant correlation between the likelihood of a death receiving coverage and the nationality of the person killed.
In 2004, there were 141 reports in AP headlines or first paragraphs of Israeli deaths. During this time, there had actually been 108 Israelis killed (the discrepancy is due to the fact that a number of Israeli deaths were reported multiple times).

During the same period, 543 Palestinian deaths were reported in headlines or first paragraphs. During this time, 821 Palestinians had actually been killed.4
In other words, 131% of Israeli deaths and 66% of Palestinian deaths were reported in AP headlines or first paragraphs.
That is, AP reported prominently on Israeli deaths at a rate 2.0 times greater than Palestinian deaths.
In reality, 7.6 times more Palestinians were killed than Israelis in 2004.


II. Coverage of Children’s Deaths

9 Israeli children’s deaths were reported in the headlines or first paragraphs of AP articles on the Israel/Palestine conflict in 2004, when 8 had actually occurred. During the same period only 27 out of 179 Palestinian children’s deaths were reported. (Children are defined by international law as those who are 17 and younger.)
Additionally, Palestinian children made up a disproportionately large number of Palestinian deaths in general. Children’s deaths accounted for 21.8% of the Palestinians killed, while children’s deaths accounted for only 7.4% of Israelis killed during this period.

22 times more Palestinian children were killed than Israeli children.
AP reported on 113% of Israeli children’s deaths in headlines or first paragraphs, while reporting on only 15% of Palestinian children’s deaths.
That is, Israeli children’s deaths were reported at a rate 7.5 times greater than Palestinian children’s deaths.


Comparing running totals for actual deaths and reported deaths once again reveals that while AP’s reporting on Israeli children’s deaths closely tracks the reality, the reporting on Palestinian children’s deaths lags far behind the actual number, following a path similar to Israeli children’s deaths. This is in stark contradiction to the reality, in which Palestinian children were being killed at a rate over 22 times greater than Israeli children.

The fact that you believe Israelis and Palestinians suffer equally, when the facts clearly show they don't, proves my point.

 

[Sassylassie]

So what is your point Earth you have repeatly showed your bias towards Palestine, and your chart means little to all the children that have died in this fight over dirt. Is your point Palestinian Children are worth more sorrow than Isreal's children. Neither side can declair it's self holyier than thou, but at least Isreal doesn't strap bombs on babies or hide under womens skirts, or sent the elderly to die whilst taking out more innocents in the fight over DIRT.

 

[earth_as_one]

For example, only a minority of Canadians are aware that from January 2005 until July 2006, Hamas maintained a self declared unilateral ceasefire, while Israel continually abducted and assassinated Hamas leaders. Our news didn't report this fact.
------------------------------------------------------earth_as_one--------------------------------------------------

This factoid begs to be assailed. It's veracity begs questioning.

For the following reasons:

1. Do you know what Hamas did just before taking such a noble stand ?
It's like someone who hit you and suddenly says, Wait ! I'm not going to hit you any more, so you can't hit me.

I am not aware that this is the case. I believe both sides were guilty of committing acts of violence before Hamas decided to take "such a noble stand". I suspect they hoped that their unilateral ceasefire would be reported and would shame Israel into joining them. But our media didn't report that Hamas was observing a unilateral ceasefire. Instead they dug into their archives to drag out past acts of violence in order to demonize Hamas. By the way, the current ceasefire was initiated by Palestinians not Israelis. Palestinians wanted a complete ceasefire but all Israel would agree to is a partial ceasefire. How noble is that?

2. Do you know what this noble self-imposed peace covers up ?
A build up for their next attack.
Allows preparation and planning and repairing their wounds.
Bringing in more rockets from Iran.

You can't back that statement up. please provide links... If you want to make ridiculous claims without any facts to back them up, why limit yourself? Why not claim Palestinians are building nuclear weapons and ICBMs.

3. And then one must really read what both sides were doing, and it was far from a peace you or I can recognize.

That's why what Hamas observed is called a ceasefire.

4. You read some statement by Hamas about a self-imposed peace without analysis, without the same critical questioning you apply to the zionist Isreali statements.

Before you attack my sources you should check them. They are reputable. But if you think Hamas violated their unilateral ceasefire, then it shouldn't be hard to find a story about Hamas committing an act of violence during that period.

Here are additional links

...Although committed in its charter to the destruction of Israel, it has maintained a unilateral ceasefire since last spring while putting its efforts into a political push for power - despite the assassination of its most senior figures by Israel...http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...29.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/01/29/ixnewstop.html

Or this motion made by British Member of Parliament and supported by 69 MPs:

BREAKING THE CYCLE OF VIOLENCE IN ISRAEL AND PALESTINE
26.04.2006

McKechin, Ann

That this House unreservedly condemns the bombing by Islamic Jihad of a Tel Aviv falafel stand during the Jewish Passover holiday on 17th April killing nine civilians and injuring 60 people; further condemns the killing of 19 Palestinians including three children by the Israeli army during the first two weeks of April; notes that 111 mainly civilian Palestinians were also injured during that period; further notes that in the week 12th to 18th April about 40 home-made Qassam rockets were fired by Palestinian militants inside Gaza towards targets in southern Israel and that during the same period Israeli regular forces fired more than 950 artillery shells and 40 F16 missiles into the Gaza strip; commends the Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas for his criticism of the Tel Aviv bombing; further notes that Hamas was not responsible for this attack but rejects Hamas leaders' description of it as an expression of Palestinian self-defence in the face of continuing Israeli violence; welcomes nevertheless the fact that Hamas declared a unilateral ceasefire many months ago which it has maintained; urges the Government of Israel also to declare a ceasefire; and calls on both sides to break the cycle of violence and to negotiate a just and lasting settlement in line with the Road Map and United Nations Resolutions passed on the Israel/Palestine question.

http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDetails.aspx?EDMID=30546&SESSION=875

5. This lack of critical questioning, this rational doubt that is absent on Hamas is most likely a natural compensating reaction to the past (no longer present) preponderance of Israeli supporters.

When I make statements, I usually back them up with links to reputable sources like "The Telegraph" above. You can read those sources yourself and make up your own mind. If you think those sources aren't reputable, prove it.

But if you find the facts don't support your perceptions, then maybe its time you re-examined your perceptions.

 

[CDNBear]

When I make statements, I usually back them up with links to reputable sources like "The Telegraph" above. You can read those sources yourself and make up your own mind. If you think those sources aren't reputable, prove it.

But if you find the facts don't support your perceptions, then maybe its time you re-examined your perceptions.

What perceptions earth?

Are you still on my land?

I'll see you next week with my rocket launcher.

Do you not see the ridiculousness in that way of thought?

If not, get off my land, I'll be there tomorrow to claim it.

You keeping making excuses for their trechory while condemning Israel's. You say you know there is criminal actions on both sides, yet you continue to ram your apologist views down our throats.

Give it up, the IDF indiscriminately targets, the Hebolah and Hamas launches rockets from under childrens beds, so your point was?

 

[Curiosity]

earthasone

Why do you think one particular site which could be clearly anti-semitic filled with academia who are not in agreement with the support of Israel would put up accurate charts and stats.

Why do you feel it is up to the U.S. to fund Palestine as well as Israel - when Israel happens to be the only defensive nation in the middle east working with the U.S.

Why do you feel the Arabs are ignoring Palestine? Do you actually believe Palestine is not being paid to continue their disruption of the middle east peace talks? This keeps the focus on that region while Iran and Syria have time to work on their own agenda.

The internet is loaded with the sorry tales of these two nations.... Clinton spent most of his presidency trying to get the two nations to agree on a peaceful solution - perhaps he never offered either enough money - I wonder if there IS enough money to purchase peace.

I haven't read all the wildly colorful charts demonstrating your total bias towards the Palestinians - but will plop down a link to pretend I have been doing my own homework which I have not.... frankly I am sick of both nations at the present time....if they are not serious about peace, I wish the U.S. would cut her
ties, offer another place for Israel to settle or completely remove the Palestinians....whatever, I don't see why it is always up to the U.S.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_pa_corrupt.php

 

[earth_as_one]

So what is your point Earth you have repeatly showed your bias towards Palestine, and your chart means little to all the children that have died in this fight over dirt. Is your point Palestinian Children are worth more sorrow than Isreal's children. Neither side can declair it's self holyier than thou, but at least Isreal doesn't strap bombs on babies or hide under womens skirts, or sent the elderly to die whilst taking out more innocents in the fight over DIRT.

Curiosity believes Israelis and Palestinians suffer equally and believes Palestinian's get equal press coverage as Israeli's. The information I posted proves that's not true. That not being biased. That's called making a point and backing it up with references.

To defend Israel today is to be either callous or uninformed. I can't do anything about people who are callous, but I'm trying the best I can to inform people. That's not being biased either.

You disagree with what I post, fine... Challenge my points with your own. But its intellectually lazy to claim I am biased without proving it and then making outrageous claims without a single reference to back up them up.

 

[fuzzylogix]

earthasone

Why do you think one particular site which could be clearly anti-semitic filled with academia who are not in agreement with the support of Israel would put up accurate charts and stats.

Why do you feel it is up to the U.S. to fund Palestine as well as Israel - when Israel happens to be the only defensive nation in the middle east working with the U.S.

Why do you feel the Arabs are ignoring Palestine? Do you actually believe Palestine is not being paid to continue their disruption of the middle east peace talks? This keeps the focus on that region while Iran and Syria have time to work on their own agenda.

The internet is loaded with the sorry tales of these two nations.... Clinton spent most of his presidency trying to get the two nations to agree on a peaceful solution - perhaps he never offered either enough money - I wonder if there IS enough money to purchase peace.

I haven't read all the wildly colorful charts demonstrating your total bias towards the Palestinians - but will plop down a link to pretend I have been doing my own homework which I have not.... frankly I am sick of both nations at the present time....if they are not serious about peace, I wish the U.S. would cut her
ties, offer another place for Israel to settle or completely remove the Palestinians....whatever, I don't see why it is always up to the U.S.

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_pa_corrupt.php

so- let me get this right, curiosity. You havent read Earths charts and discusssion but you are sure it is biased and crapola. Not very curious are you, in actual fact. You are sick of both nations but you are biased against Palestine.

I too wish the US did not think it was up to them to create a solution as their solution is quite biased and is based on who they can sell the most weapons to.