British soldiers reprimanded after doing Nazi or Red Hand of Ulster salute

Blackleaf

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Two British soldiers are being investigated after they were photographed doing a Nazi-style gesture in Afghanistan.

The pair were photographed in front of a Union Flag and a Northern Irish flag whilst making the salute at a British Army base in Helmand Province.

MPs and ex-military leaders condemned the troops’ behaviour.

John Mann, chairman of the Commons’ All Party Group Against Anti-Semitism and Labour MP for Bassetlaw said: ‘This is an insult to the memory of those who gave their lives to stop the Nazis.'

There is also a suggestion that, due to the presence of a Northern Irish flag and the fact that the words "INVICTA LOYAL" are scrawled across the Union Flag, the salutes may not be Nazi salutes but Red Hand of Ulster salutes.

The Red Hand of Ulster salute has been used by some supporters of the mainly Protestant-supported Scottish football club Glasgow Rangers to show solidarity with Northern Ireland's pro-British Protestant Loyalists.

'Invicta Loyal' is the name of a Glasgow Rangers supporters' club in Kent.

Many of the pages on the Invicta Loyal website display open sectarian hatred, while it also includes Loyalist songs such as The Billy Boys – now banned at Rangers’ ground, Ibrox – which includes the lines: ‘We’re up to our knees in Fenian Blood /Surrender or you’ll die. ‘

But John Mann added: 'Whether they call it a “Red Hand salute” or whatever makes absolutely no difference – this is one of the most offensive gestures they could make in the modern world.'

Jeffrey Donaldson, MP of the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP), of Northern Ireland (the DUP is the fourth-largest party in Britain's House of Commons), said: 'Anyone who would imitate a Nazi salute in front of the Union Flag or wearing the uniform dishonours these flags and the British Army.'

Ironically, it was Irish republicans, such as Sinn Fein and the IRA, who sympathised with the Nazis during WWII.

Shameful: UK soldiers under investigation after they were photographed performing Nazi salute in Helmand


MPs' anger that gesture could be dismissed as 'Loyalist tribute'
Picture believed to have been taken at an Army base in Helmand Province
It shows serving British soldiers two of which are giving Nazi-style salutes
They are standing in front of a Union Flag and the flag of Northern Ireland,
'Invicta Loyal' is the name of a Glasgow Rangers supporters' club in Kent
MoD spokesman says the two soldiers seen saluting 'have been spoken to'

By Mark Nicol, Nick Craven and Andy Beaven
26 October 2013
Daily Mail

In an image which will cause widespread outrage, two serving British soldiers appear to give Nazi-style salutes while standing to attention in front of the Union Flag.

Apparently taken at an Army base in Helmand Province, Afghanistan, the photograph will provoke international disgust as Remembrance Day approaches.

Last night the Ministry of Defence told The Mail on Sunday that both soldiers have been investigated by Army chiefs. A spokesman said: ‘The two people doing the salute in the photo have been spoken to.

Shocking: These two soldiers making Nazi-style salutes in front of the Union Flag and Northern Irish have been investigated by Army chiefs

'This sort of behaviour has no place in the Armed Forces. We take such matters seriously.’

MPs and ex-military leaders condemned the troops’ behaviour.

John Mann, chairman of the Commons’ All Party Group Against Anti-Semitism said: ‘This is an insult to the memory of those who gave their lives to stop the Nazis.

‘These idiots need to be re-educated and they should be sent to visit Auschwitz and see what happened there and witness the evil which so many people fought to stop.’

‘So many thousands of people died for this country and the last thing we want is their memory being tarnished by a couple of idiots in uniform.

As Remembrance Sunday approaches, the MoD should send these guys around the country to clean war memorials.’

The Ministry of Defence yesterday confirmed that the men in the photograph were genuine soldiers.

The photograph also shows the flag of Northern Ireland, while the Union Flag is inscribed with ‘Invicta Loyal’ – the name of a Glasgow Rangers supporters’ club, based in Kent.

Insult: In another picture published online the soldiers hold guns but their faces are obscured. 'Invicta Loyal' is the name of a Glasgow Rangers supporters' club in Kent

There is a suggestion that the gesture may be a ‘Red Hand of Ulster’ salute, a gesture once used by Rangers football fans to show allegiance with Northern Irish Loyalists.

But Mr Mann, the MP for Bassetlaw, added: ‘Whether they call it a “Red Hand salute” or whatever makes absolutely no difference – this is one of the most offensive gestures they could make in the modern world.’

Jeffrey Donaldson MP of the Democratic Unionist Party said: ‘Anyone who would imitate a Nazi salute in front of the Union Flag or wearing the uniform dishonours these flags and the British Army.

‘Any symbolism associated with fascism has no place in the Unionist tradition or any regiment of the British Army.

'We do not know to which regiment these soldiers belong but the Royal Irish Regiment, with which I am associated, has a proud record of fighting fascism.’

Fellow Democratic Unionist MP Sammy Wilson added: ‘This is not a salute made by marching bands [in Northern Ireland]. It is not clear what the context is but I do not think it can be explained away as some type of Red Hand of Ulster salute.’

The Ministry of Defence said the men had been subjected to ‘administrative action’ – a process of investigation with possible punishment if the personnel are found to have breached Army regulations.

Soldiers are allowed to belong to political parties, but are banned from politcal marches and demonstrations, and are expected to abide by Army values.


Outrage: John Mann (left), chairman of the Commons' All Party Group Against Anti-Semitism and Jeffrey Donaldson MP (right) of the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP) are among those to voice their disgust

In another photograph published elsewhere on the internet, a group of soldiers are seen bedecked in the sashes and other regalia of the Orange Order.

Many of the pages on the Invicta Loyal website display open sectarian hatred, while it also includes loyalist songs such as The Billy Boys – now banned at Rangers’ ground, Ibrox – which includes the lines: ‘We’re up to our knees in Fenian Blood /Surrender or you’ll die. ‘

The website also has photographs from a ‘social’ event held by Invicta Loyal members where a gents’ toilet displayed a notice inviting supporters to ‘P*** on a Papist’ as pictures of the Pope, Gerry Adams and IRA hunger striker Bobby Sands were stuck to the urinal.

Last month soldiers at a Rangers match as part of Armed Forces Day were accused of joining in sectarian singing. Troops who had been parading on the Ibrox pitch were seen to break ranks, and one soldier was allegedly photographed with a ‘Keep Ulster Protestant’ scarf.

The incident was reported to the police and a file was also sent to Army chiefs.

An MoD statement on the matter said at the time: ‘Any personnel found to have fallen short of the Armed Forces’ values and standards will be dealt with by the chain of command and, if necessary, by the police.’

So far there has been no announcement of disciplinary action against any of the troops and no charges brought by police.

John McMillan, former general secretary of the Rangers Supporters Association last night warned against one-arm salutes.

He said: ‘It is something that fans should really avoid doing as it can be misinterpreted as a Nazi symbol and offend people. I do not think it is something we should be associated with and I do not think the club would welcome it.

‘I am quite sure it was not meant to be a Nazi salute. I have not seen fans making the Red Hand of Ulster salute myself, but I would advise against anyone doing it because of how it could be viewed by others.’

THE SUSPECT RED HAND DEFENCE



Glasgow Rangers fans were investigated by UEFA in 2007 when some made straight-armed salutes during a match against an Israeli team in Tel Aviv.

European football’s governing body was satisfied by Rangers’ explanation that the fans were making ‘Red Hand of Ulster salutes’ but the club warned fans not to repeat the gesture.

Some experts, however, dismiss the idea that such a tradition exists.

Historian Ian S Wood, who has studied Ulster Loyalism for decades, said: ‘I’ve never seen or heard of anything called a red hand salute.’






 
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CDNBear

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Re: British soldiers repremanded after doing Nazi or Red Hand of Ulster salute

Interesting, potential Nazism in the Briddish Army.
 

Blackleaf

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Re: British soldiers repremanded after doing Nazi or Red Hand of Ulster salute

Interesting, potential Nazism in the Briddish Army.

Remember which army which was which fought and defeated Nazism.
 

CDNBear

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Re: British soldiers repremanded after doing Nazi or Red Hand of Ulster salute

Remember which army which was which fought and defeated Nazism.
And yet you have members of your Briddish Army doing what looks a lot like a Nazi solute.

If that is what they're doing, you should be ashamed.
 

Blackleaf

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Re: British soldiers repremanded after doing Nazi or Red Hand of Ulster salute

And yet you have members of your Briddish Army doing what looks a lot like a Nazi solute.

Two members out of how many in total?

If that is what they're doing, you should be ashamed.

I've got nothing to be ashamed for. I've not done anything.
 

CDNBear

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Re: British soldiers repremanded after doing Nazi or Red Hand of Ulster salute

Two members out of how many in total?
It's been my experience, that where there's two, there's hundreds of cockroaches.

I've got nothing to be ashamed for. I've not done anything.
Is that why you got all emotional and twitchy?
 

captain morgan

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Re: British soldiers repremanded after doing Nazi or Red Hand of Ulster salute

I've got nothing to be ashamed for. I've not done anything.


Those soldiers directly represent the Queen, right?

Has she reprimanded them directly?... If not, why?... Is there something here that may be construed as supportive?

The answers to these questions and more; next time on the Blackleaf Chronicles (insert dramatic music score here)
 

Blackleaf

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Re: British soldiers repremanded after doing Nazi or Red Hand of Ulster salute

It's been my experience, that where there's two, there's hundreds of cockroaches.

Tarring hundreds of people with the same brush gets you nowhere.

Is that why you got all emotional and twitchy?

I'm getting twitchy because you are wrongly implying that I should be "ashamed" of something that has got nothing to do with me.

I don't even know these men.

But if they are doing a Red Hand of Ulster salute they get my support.
 

CDNBear

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Re: British soldiers repremanded after doing Nazi or Red Hand of Ulster salute

Tarring hundreds of people with the same brush gets you nowhere.
I haven't. Yet.

I'm getting twitchy because you are wrongly implying that I should be "ashamed" of something that has got nothing to do with me.
Oh you got all emotional way back at my first post.

I don't even know these men.
Then you got all emotional and twitchy why?

But if they are doing a Red Hand of Ulster salute they get my support.
They're missing the red paint.
 

Goober

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Re: British soldiers repremanded after doing Nazi or Red Hand of Ulster salute

Tarring hundreds of people with the same brush gets you nowhere.



I'm getting twitchy because you are wrongly implying that I should be "ashamed" of something that has got nothing to do with me.

I don't even know these men.

But if they are doing a Red Hand of Ulster salute they get my support.

They were not

From the link

In another photograph published elsewhere on the internet, a group of soldiers are seen bedecked in the sashes and other regalia of the Orange Order.

Many of the pages on the Invicta Loyal website display open sectarian hatred, while it also includes loyalist songs such as The Billy Boys – now banned at Rangers’ ground, Ibrox – which includes the lines: ‘We’re up to our knees in Fenian Blood /Surrender or you’ll die. ‘

The website also has photographs from a ‘social’ event held by Invicta Loyal members where a gents’ toilet displayed a notice inviting supporters to ‘P*** on a Papist’ as pictures of the Pope, Gerry Adams and IRA hunger striker Bobby Sands were stuck to the urinal.

Last month soldiers at a Rangers match as part of Armed Forces Day were accused of joining in sectarian singing. Troops who had been parading on the Ibrox pitch were seen to break ranks, and one soldier was allegedly photographed with a ‘Keep Ulster Protestant’ scarf.

Red Hand of Ulster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Red Hand of Ulster (in Irish: Lámh Dhearg Uladh) is a symbol used in heraldry[1] to denote the Irish province of Ulster. It is an open right hand coloured red, with the fingers pointing upwards, the thumb held parallel to the fingers, and the palm facing forward. It is less commonly known as the Red Hand of O'Neill.[2] Its origins are said to be attributed to the mythical Irish figure Labraid Lámh Dhearg[1] (Labraid of the Red Hand), and appear in other mythical tales passed down from generation to generation in the oral tradition. The symbol is rooted in Irish Gaelic culture and is particularly associated with the Uí Néill clan of Ulster. In some versions, a left hand is used and/or the thumb is opened
 

Blackleaf

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Re: British soldiers repremanded after doing Nazi or Red Hand of Ulster salute

They were not

You've obviously never been to an Old Firm match, you naive little fool, if you think Rangers fans paint their hands red when performing the Red Hand of Ulster.

Nor, I suspect, are you in any way knowledgeable about the Troubles and the roll the conflict still plays in football chants around the country.