Trayvon Martin: civil rights leaders call for Florida police chief to resign


View Poll Results: Should George Zimmerman be arrested???
No. He acted in self defense 4 12.50%
Yes. Then let the legal system play out 8 25.00%
Dunno. No enough facts in this case yet 9 28.13%
The USA is so Fukked up, where is the pop corn. 11 34.38%
Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll

BruSan
#61
Quote: Originally Posted by B00MerView Post

Well let's see.. the only people with guns are the criminals, at least south of the border you can own a gun too and defend yourself against criminals..

Sorry, I'm pro-gun.. Smith & Wesson .40 sitting on my desk next to me now..

Say what? I'm Canadian, not a criminal and own guns. Sure don't have my old Ithica pump sitting beside me at the computer though, that'd indicate a somewhat deviant personality disorder in my circle.

My personal choice of phallic symbol is out in the garage and has Impala SS on it. LOL !
 
Locutus
#62
While I expected this site to address the obvious differences in both dated photos that all the media loves to show, they did ask at least one legitimate question:





News outlets have been using a few different photos of Martin, including one of him wearing a red Hollister T-shirt, a football jersey and the white hoodie. Irby said that given the stigma around hoodies, it’s smart to have conversations about whether to feature the photo of Martin wearing one.


“There are a number of images that the family has made available, and I think we have to question why journalists continue to present that same image and not new information or new images that represent the individual in a more complete way,Irby said. “We have to be willing to ask good questions. Are we perpetuating stereotypes, and are we pursuing a range of options? There are other options out there.”


How to cover Trayvon Martin killing: Report on ‘racial tension’ and look beyond the hoodie | Poynter. (external - login to view)
 
EagleSmack
#63
He was 6'3" 160lbs! On the news a protester said he was 120 Lbs. soaking wet!
 
Colpy
+1
#64
Maybe, just maybe Zimmerman was completely justified, and the gun he was carrying saved his life.......

Trayvon Martin: George Zimmerman's account to police of the Trayvon Martin shooting. - Orlando Sentinel (external - login to view)
 
Cannuck
#65
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

Maybe I should not have used the words "at face value". Look up the meaning of "prima facie" and see for yourself who has to prove what. Self defense is a legal defense but it is up to the individual who wishes to use it to prove it. There is never a presumption of self defense.

No. That is simply not the case.If, as you suggested in post #38, "when a person shoots another person, it is a crime (it is by definition homicide) and the individual must prove that it was in self defense." every single police officer that has shot and killed a perp would be guilty of homicide until he was proven innocent. It simply does not work that way.
 
Niflmir
#66
Quote: Originally Posted by CannuckView Post

No. That is simply not the case.If, as you suggested in post #38, "when a person shoots another person, it is a crime (it is by definition homicide) and the individual must prove that it was in self defense." every single police officer that has shot and killed a perp would be guilty of homicide until he was proven innocent. It simply does not work that way.

And if the DA decided to initiate a law suit, it would work that way. You are confusing the discretion of the DA with the burden of proof needed to prove self defense. My original post was talking about a court of law.
 
Colpy
#67
Quote: Originally Posted by CannuckView Post

No. That is simply not the case.If, as you suggested in post #38, "when a person shoots another person, it is a crime (it is by definition homicide) and the individual must prove that it was in self defense." every single police officer that has shot and killed a perp would be guilty of homicide until he was proven innocent. It simply does not work that way.

Correct.

Killing in self-defense is perfectly legal, and there must be evidence that it is NOT self-defense before someone can be charged.

Self defense is NOT an excuse to break the law.....it is simply not illegal.

Big difference.

Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

And if the DA decided to initiate a law suit, it would work that way. You are confusing the discretion of the DA with the burden of proof needed to prove self defense. My original post was talking about a court of law.

Ah....the state would not institute a law suit in this case, nor would a DA have anything to do with a lawsuit.

The DA deals with criminal law.

A lawsuit would be civil law.

Two completely different animals.
 
Cannuck
-1
#68
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

...



I don't think Niflmir has been Pwned at all.
 
Niflmir
#69
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

Correct.

Killing in self-defense is perfectly legal, and there must be evidence that it is NOT self-defense before someone can be charged.

Self defense is NOT an excuse to break the law.....it is simply not illegal.

Big difference.

Certainly if a defendant raises the defense, then the crown should be able to convince the jurors that it did not happen. But there is no presumption of self defense, if the defendant does not raise the defense, then the defendant forfeits the defense.

Moreover, if the crown paints a sequence of evidence that a jury buys and self defense is not a part of it, then that is all that is necessary to prove homicide. If the defendant never faults the sequence of events, or worse, affirms it, and the jury buys it, then then the prosecutor's "proof" of self defense (by never mentioning it at all) is complete.
 
B00Mer
#70
New Black Panthers are nothing but the black version of the KKK.
 
Cannuck
#71
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

Certainly if a defendant raises the defense, then the crown should be able to convince the jurors that it did not happen. But there is no presumption of self defense, if the defendant does not raise the defense, then the defendant forfeits the defense.

Moreover, if the crown paints a sequence of evidence that a jury buys and self defense is not a part of it, then that is all that is necessary to prove homicide. If the defendant never faults the sequence of events, or worse, affirms it, and the jury buys it, then then the prosecutor's "proof" of self defense (by never mentioning it at all) is complete.

No presumption of self defense by the court and a requirement by the accused to prove self defense are not the same thing.
 
Niflmir
#72
Quote: Originally Posted by CannuckView Post

No presumption of self defense by the court and a requirement by the accused to prove self defense are not the same thing.

Yes, and the crown proving that the accused intended to cause grievous injury to the victim is a third, which is what I am talking about.
 
Cannuck
#73
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

Yes, and the crown proving that the accused intended to cause grievous injury to the victim is a third, which is what I am talking about.

A police officer shooting a perp in self defense intends to cause grievous injury to the "victim".
 
Niflmir
#74
Quote: Originally Posted by CannuckView Post

A police officer shooting a perp in self defense intends to cause grievous injury to the "victim".

Yes, which is why if it ever went to trial (and his defense attorney wasn't a chump) he would raise the defense of self defense and present the paperwork he filed as evidence. Presumably the crown would have some evidence that a different chain of events happened and they would be attempting to prove that their version of the story is what happened, and the jury would judge based on the merits.
 
Cannuck
#75
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

Yes, which is why if it ever went to trial (and his defense attorney wasn't a chump) he would raise the defense of self defense and present the paperwork he filed as evidence. Presumably the crown would have some evidence that a different chain of events happened and they would be attempting to prove that their version of the story is what happened, and the jury would judge based on the merits.

Then we are in agreement. The accused does not have to prove self defense. There, that was easy.
 
Niflmir
#76
Quote: Originally Posted by CannuckView Post

Then we are in agreement. The accused does not have to prove self defense. There, that was easy.

Well it is could go down like this:

The DA shows evidence that the location of Zimmerman's phone call to the police is a far distance away from the location of the body.

The DA shows evidence that the police told Zimmerman not to follow Martin.

The DA shows evidence that Martin was unarmed and that the gun was Zimmerman's.

The DA shows evidence that Martin's girlfriend last heard him asking "Why are you following me?"

The DA shows evidence that witnesses heard Martin screaming for help.

And Zimmerman's lawyer doesn't present any evidence at all.

What that shows is that Martin was the one being assaulted, Zimmerman who introduced the dangerous element into the situation, and Zimmerman who caused the situation even when he was advised by the police to stay away. That provides the guilty mind and guilty act for second degree murder.

A good defense lawyer would find holes in that by finding evidence that suggests a different turn of events. That is what I mean by proving self defense, a defense that makes no statements at all will not prevail on self defense.
 
EagleSmack
#77
Nfl... that would be ideal if all those were facts.
 
Niflmir
#78
Quote: Originally Posted by EagleSmackView Post

Nfl... that would be ideal if all those were facts.

Yeah, precisely. I don't have the answers, and Zimmerman certainly would be sure to have a competent defense that would present all the contradicting claims, like the witness who claimed that Martin was on top: he is almost certain to get off at this point.

However, if it is true that the police did not follow normal procedures, such as testing Zimmerman for alcohol/drugs and asking around the neighbourhood to see if anybody knew him (amongst others) than at this stage, and the suppression of witness statements, then probably the only justice possible at this point is the resignation of the police chief.

Which is also a shame for Zimmerman, if it was indeed self defense, since now his name is tarnished, one way or the other, and the facts likely too clouded at this point to sort them out.
 
EagleSmack
#79
Well Zimmerman was tarnished the moment he shot an African-American.
 
Niflmir
+1
#80
Quote: Originally Posted by EagleSmackView Post

Well Zimmerman was tarnished the moment he shot an African-American.

Whenever I imagine myself in a situation where I need to defend myself, I can only imagine a complete mess afterwards. This whole situation is certainly a mess, that is for sure.
 
EagleSmack
#81
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

Whenever I imagine myself in a situation where I need to defend myself, I can only imagine a complete mess afterwards. This whole situation is certainly a mess, that is for sure.

Its a mess if you defend yourself and beat up or kill the attacker that is for sure. It's ok if you just take a beating or killing.
 
Niflmir
#82
Quote: Originally Posted by EagleSmackView Post

Its a mess if you defend yourself and beat up or kill the attacker that is for sure. It's ok if you just take a beating or killing.

Yeah, that's the real problem indeed. Also, the police seem to have a frightening amount of discretion. To be honest, that is the thing that would scare me. Maybe the detective just doesn't like me or thinks I look shady. You might take my earlier posts to suggest that I believe that the courts could do a better job, and in a sense, I believe they could do a better job. But I honestly don't feel that dragging someone through the court is a good idea; it does at least make the facts public which at this point is useful.
 
Tonington
#83
Quote: Originally Posted by LocutusView Post

As for the angelic little boy. Right. Probably smoked some weed, maybe sold a bit for cash. Big whoop.

I never said he was angelic. Who cares if he smoked some weed? Big whoop indeed. You know some people used to comment on how women who were raped dressed too, and some still do. It's a strawman, and it's a lame attempt at character assassination.

Quote:

But also hung out with others in his posse as teens do to belong, to look cool, tough.

You don`t know that. But it fits the narrative some are trying to spin of the dead boy.

Quote:

But maybe he wasn't sweetie either.

Maybe not, maybe he was. Completely irrelevant.

Quote:

The media (and the usual suspects) portrayal of the Hispanic guy as the nasty orange jumpsuit convict and the nice young teen boy (6'3") as a babyfaced victim is a troll. Plain and simple. News, and trash news sells.

You know, I've never understood why people who call somethign trash would choose to hold themselves to that standard. You're obviously consuming the trash news on the flip side.

Quote:

Those that blindly buy into that are simply stupid and easily manipulated.

Being willing and posting as you say "what's fair is fair" is hardly better than being blind.
 
CDNBear
#84
Quote: Originally Posted by CannuckView Post

I don't think...

We're well aware of that. I blame your admitted stupidity.
 
Tonington
+2
#85
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

Maybe, just maybe Zimmerman was completely justified, and the gun he was carrying saved his life.......

Trayvon Martin: George Zimmerman's account to police of the Trayvon Martin shooting. - Orlando Sentinel (external - login to view)

It's too bad there is only one side of the story to corroborate...

This reminds me a bit of a Southpark episode, in Season 1 episode 3, Uncle Jimbo explains to the boys how to get around hunting laws. "Watch out, it's coming right for us!" If your life is in danger, it's justified to kill. Pretty much the same thing, only Zimmerman's life was not in jeopardy when he made the call to 911, of which he had made nearly 50 calls in the past. He ignored the advice of the dispatcher and followed Martin. That is looking for a confrontation.
 
CDNBear
#86
Quote: Originally Posted by ToningtonView Post

He ignored the advice of the dispatcher and followed Martin. That is looking for a confrontation.

Or protecting property.

His perception is what matters. Especially in a State with no "Duty to retreat".
 
Colpy
+1
#87
Quote: Originally Posted by ToningtonView Post

It's too bad there is only one side of the story to corroborate...

This reminds me a bit of a Southpark episode, in Season 1 episode 3, Uncle Jimbo explains to the boys how to get around hunting laws. "Watch out, it's coming right for us!" If your life is in danger, it's justified to kill. Pretty much the same thing, only Zimmerman's life was not in jeopardy when he made the call to 911, of which he had made nearly 50 calls in the past. He ignored the advice of the dispatcher and followed Martin. That is looking for a confrontation.

Yeah....but he sure didn't chase him!!!

Zimmerman: 28 years old, with asthma, 5'9" tall, 240 lbs

Martin: 17 years old, football player, 6'3" tall, 160 lbs.



And IF Martin was on top of Zimmerman pounding his head on the pavement, the shooting is (probably) justified.

Too many unknowns...but the more information that becomes availible, the more it appears Zimmerman is innocent.
 
Ocean Breeze
#88
Wondering if those that seem to be defending Zimmerman , are really defending ownership and usage of GUNS. ....

IF Zimmerman had been killed (situation reversed) do you not think that Martin would have been in jail now...???

As stated before: too bad Martin is not alive to present his side of the story. That is always "convenient" for the shooter , particularly when reliable witnesses are lacking.

Kinda comes down to how does the deceased victim defend himself ??? Zimmerman did NOT HAVE TO KILL HIM. IF he HAD to use a lethal weapon.......he could have just injured him.
********************

Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

Yeah....but he sure didn't chase him!!!

Zimmerman: 28 years old, with asthma, 5'9" tall, 240 lbs

Martin: 17 years old, football player, 6'3" tall, 160 lbs.



And IF Martin was on top of Zimmerman pounding his head on the pavement, the shooting is (probably) justified.

Too many unknowns...but the more information that becomes availible, the more it appears Zimmerman is innocent.

NONE of us were there. We are not eye witnesses to this incident. And even if we were.........we would all be presenting a variation of what we saw. as perceptions differ with the witness.
 
Tonington
#89
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

Especially in a State with no "Duty to retreat".

Martin was walking home, in a public place, which isn't unlawful. Also, the use of deadly force isn't valid when there is provocation. When Zimmerman chased down Martin, that was provocation. Zimmerman put himself in that situation. You can't provoke somebody into violence and then claim use of deadly force.
Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine (external - login to view)
 
Locutus
+1
#90
Mother Seeks Trayvon Martin Trademarks



MARCH 26--The mother of Trayvon Martin has filed two applications to secure trademarks containing her late son’s name, records show.
Sabrina Fulton is seeking marks for the phrases “I Am Trayvon” (external - login to view) and “Justice for Trayvon,” (external - login to view) according to filings made last week with the United States Patent and Trademark Office. In both instances, Fulton is seeking the trademarks for use on “Digital materials, namely, CDs and DVDs featuring Trayvon Martin,” and other products.
The March 21 USPTO applications, each of which cost $325, were filed by an Orlando, Florida law firm representing Fulton.
Martin, 17, was shot to death last month during a confrontation with George Zimmerman, a 28-year-old neighborhood watch captain. Martin, pictured above, was visiting his father’s home in Sanford, Florida when he was shot to death by Zimmerman, who has claimed that he was acting in self-defense. (6 pages)


Mother Seeks Trayvon Martin Trademarks | The Smoking Gun (external - login to view)
 
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