Mormonism: Cult or Religion?


Ariadne
#1
National Post
January 5, 2012

 
gerryh
#2
forums.canadiancontent.net/sp...hristians.html (external - login to view)
 
china
#3
what is a christian ?
 
Ariadne
#4
Quote: Originally Posted by chinaView Post

what is a christian ?

According to the article, it seems to have something to do with putting one's entire trust in the belief that Jesus Christ is the Messiah (presuming that there will be some visitation from the Gods at some point in time). The difference seems to be that Mormonism puts it's focus on self-salvation and the revelations of one man (rather than the 66 books and 3000 years of verified history associated with believing that Jesus Christ is a visit from God). Is that what defines a cult?

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

forums.canadiancontent.net/sp...hristians.html (external - login to view)

The point is more about the philosophy of Mormonism than whether people that follow Mormonism adhere to Christian values in addition to their more self-salvation based Mormon beliefs.
 
Spade
+1
#5
China asks a legitimate question. Not all Christians accept the divinity of Jesus. Christianity is a broad spectrum; some denominations are Islam without Mohammed. No one really can define it.
 
Cliffy
#6
Is bread defined by its components? If Christianity were defined by its components, we would be here for years.
 
gerryh
#7
Ariadne, I was just pointing out that there was already a thread about this question and I provided a link to it.
 
damngrumpy
+1
#8
All of these groups are inter mingled anyway. Take Islam, they claim that Abraham
is the father of their civilization. Hmmm the Jews also claim Abraham as their own,
Oh excuse me, it is the Christian crowd too.
Then there is Jesus, guess what, Islam claims he is the number two prophet and a
well respected man, in addition there is a chapter devoted to Mary the mother of Jesus.
Well the problem is, these people are all Jewish and yet the Muslims claim an over all
association with them.
At the same time the Christians claim Christ is the Savior, and he too was Jewish. I
wonder who is and who is not a cult amongst them all. Within the definitions of Christianity
we have some groups that other devoted folk call cults. Mormons, Christian Scientists,
and so on.
some cults define others as cults as well. I wonder what it is about faith based organizations
that they have to claim they are the only ones with the truth the light and the way as it were.
Personally I regard them all as legitimate, with some skepticism, and the feeling that their
obsession with controlling people is a bit cultish regardless of the brand name. And maybe
that is the problem, various denominations are more about branding themselves in the
believers market rather than concentrating what it is they believe and how open minded
they are within their belief system. Are Mormons a cult, no they are as different and the
same as everyone else.
 
Ariadne
+1
#9
Quote: Originally Posted by SpadeView Post

China asks a legitimate question. Not all Christians accept the divinity of Jesus. Christianity is a broad spectrum; some denominations are Islam without Mohammed. No one really can define it.

I think the difference is that most religions put something like an after life, in exchange for belief in some sort of God on earth, as a priority. Mormonism seems to put something like self-salvation as a priority. Instead of the soul being saved, the after life takes on the appearance of a planet of one's own. Mormonism seems to be based on some ill conceived fairy tales about the 10 commandments and self-salvation, whereas Christianity seems to be based on 66 books about social history and 3000 years of verified history.

The ten commandments, the social foundations for Christianity, are true in all religions. The question is more about where Mormonism puts its priorities versus where Christianity puts its priorities.

Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

Is bread defined by its components? If Christianity were defined by its components, we would be here for years.

There are certain principals that define all religions. The question is whether Mormonism adheres to those same principals, or whether Mormonism has other guiding principles that trump.

... at least that's what I understood from the article.

Quote: Originally Posted by damngrumpyView Post

All of these groups are inter mingled anyway. Take Islam, they claim that Abraham
is the father of their civilization. Hmmm the Jews also claim Abraham as their own,
Oh excuse me, it is the Christian crowd too.
Then there is Jesus, guess what, Islam claims he is the number two prophet and a
well respected man, in addition there is a chapter devoted to Mary the mother of Jesus.
Well the problem is, these people are all Jewish and yet the Muslims claim an over all
association with them.
At the same time the Christians claim Christ is the Savior, and he too was Jewish. I
wonder who is and who is not a cult amongst them all. Within the definitions of Christianity
we have some groups that other devoted folk call cults. Mormons, Christian Scientists,
and so on.
some cults define others as cults as well. I wonder what it is about faith based organizations
that they have to claim they are the only ones with the truth the light and the way as it were.
Personally I regard them all as legitimate, with some skepticism, and the feeling that their
obsession with controlling people is a bit cultish regardless of the brand name. And maybe
that is the problem, various denominations are more about branding themselves in the
believers market rather than concentrating what it is they believe and how open minded
they are within their belief system. Are Mormons a cult, no they are as different and the
same as everyone else.

All religions have some foundations in common.

Mormonism is something different. It's not Christian or Islam or Judaism. There is a common belief with Christianity that Jesus was the representation of God on earth. After that, the question is where the priorities lay. Is it a social and moral cult with self-preservation as the priority, or is it like other religions where an after life is a priority?
 
Cliffy
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by AriadneView Post

All religions have some foundations in common.

Mormonism is something different. It's not Christian or Islam or Judaism. There is a common belief with Christianity that Jesus was the representation of God on earth. After that, the question is where the priorities lay. Is it a social and moral cult with self-preservation as the priority, or is it like other religions where an after life is a priority?

You cannot have this conversation and ignore other religions like Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, Shintoism, etc. In Buddhism, for example, there is no personal god, Abraham is unknown and Jesus was just some dude who hung out in the desert. Some even believe he visited with them, even learned from them and incorporated some of their teachings in his.

In the end, the only difference between a cult and a religion are the numbers of people who adhere to it. Some people say the JWs are a cult but they are one of the fastest growing groups in the world. Maybe its a simple as a tax free status that defines a religion.
 
Ariadne
#11
I'm not ignoring any religions. I'm simply questioning whether Mormonism is a cult. There's Islam, Christianity and Judaism ... and all those other religions fall into one of those umbrellas. Then there are cults.

The difference between cult and religion is not how many dudes believe. The jehovah witnesses are a whacky group of people that don't even like Santa Claus.
 
Cliffy
+1
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by AriadneView Post

I'm not ignoring any religions. I'm simply questioning whether Mormonism is a cult. There's Islam, Christianity and Judaism ... and all those other religions fall into one of those umbrellas. Then there are cults.

The difference between cult and religion is not how many dudes believe. The jehovah witnesses are a whacky group of people that don't even like Santa Claus.

A cult is a few loonies who comit suicide so they can catch a ride on a passing comet. No matter how whacky you think the Mormons or JWs are, they are still religions and pass all the criteria set by society otherwise they wouldn't have their tax free status. there are over 2500 varieties of Christianity and most think all the others are out to lunch. Even Jedi is considered a religion in some countries. The world is not going to conform to your way of seeing things.
 
Ariadne
#13
There are many cults. In fact, extremist groups can sometimes be considered cults because their beliefs are no longer consistent with religious beliefs. Supremicists are Christians with extremist beliefs. Extremists can be Christian, Muslim, or Jewish with non-religiously conforming ideologies (eg: faulty belief that mass killings are sanctioned by the religion).

I'm inclined to believe the National Post article suggesting that Mormons are a self-serving cult with men that do not respect (does that mean acknowledge?) spiritual equality with women.
 
Cliffy
+1
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by AriadneView Post

There are many cults. In fact, extremist groups can sometimes be considered cults because their beliefs are no longer consistent with religious beliefs. Supremicists are Christians with extremist beliefs. Extremists can be Christian, Muslim, or Jewish with non-religiously conforming ideologies (eg: faulty belief that mass killings are sanctioned by the religion).

I'm inclined to believe the National Post article suggesting that Mormons are a self-serving cult with men that do not respect (does that mean acknowledge?) spiritual equality with women.

Thje National Post article is an opinion piece. The author is a minister and thus rather biased as most have a rather narrow view, mainly their own. It borders on bigotry. I suggest you go to a Mormon temple and spend some time with them before jumping to conclusions based on someone else's say so.
 
Ariadne
#15
I know that my morning ... I'm going to be sorry I said anything ... but still ... I agree with the article.

It's not unexpected that a Minister in Christianity would be solid in his beliefs.

Who is allowed in a Mormon Temple? What are the rules? What goes on with the new brides inside?
Last edited by Ariadne; Jan 7th, 2012 at 02:31 AM..
 
In Between Man
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by AriadneView Post

Who is allowed in a Mormon Temple?

They'll welcome anyone with open arms, that's part of how cults operate. Mormonism is both a cult and it's own religion separate from Christianity. It is not Christian. Read my post here.
 
Ariadne
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by In Between ManView Post

They'll welcome anyone with open arms, that's part of how cults operate. Mormonism is both a cult and it's own religion separate from Christianity. It is not Christian. Read my post here.

Why is it then, that non-Mormonism people are not allowed in the temple for the bonding?

It's not a religion in it's own right. There haven't been any new religious categories in milleniums ... Mormonism is not going to be the anomoly.
 
Liberalman
#18
All major religions were considered cults when they started and now they are looked at as religions because of the millions of members they have worldwide.

Christianity: 2.1 billion
Islam: 1.5 billion
Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
Hinduism: 900 million
Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
Buddhism: 376 million
primal-indigenous: 300 million
African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
Sikhism: 23 million
Juche: 19 million
Spiritism: 15 million
Judaism: 14 million
Baha'i: 7 million
Jainism: 4.2 million
Shinto: 4 million
Cao Dai: 4 million
Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
Tenrikyo: 2 million
Neo-Paganism: 1 million
Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
Scientology: 500 thousand

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest-growing_religion (external - login to view)
The records of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints show membership growth every decade since its beginning in the 1830s. Following initial growth rates that averaged 10% to 25% per year in the 1830s through 1850s, it grew at about 4% per year through the last four decades of the 19th century. After a steady slowing of growth in the first four decades of the 20th century to a rate of about 2% per year in the 1930s (the Great Depression years), growth boomed to an average of 6% per year for the decade around 1960, staying around 4% to 5% through 1990. After 1990, average annual growth again slowed steadily to a rate around 2.5% for the first decade of the 21st century, still double the world population growth rate of 1.2% for the same period.

http://www.mormonwiki.com/Mormon_Population (external - login to view)
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has over 14 million members, with more than half of those members living outside the United States. Wards (the name for a congregation) and branches (similar to wards but smaller) of the Church can be found in 162 countries.


The Mormons rely on missionaries and a strict code of conduct that they live by to bring new members into their church.

The Mormon Church is less than 200 years old if they survive another 500 years as a religion with a growth rate as they enjoy today, then they will be considered a main stream like all the other major religions.
 
Niflmir
+1
#19
Of all the flavors of Christianity, the one thing they seem to have in common is the belief that salvation was not possible for the general populace until Jesus died for humanity.

You can think Jesus was a decent guy, Islam (and Judaism?) even goes so far, but if you don't think Jesus died for your sins, you are not Christian.

That makes Mormons Christians. As for the cult vs. religion question, I think if freedom of religion means anything it means that there is no such thing as a cult.
 
china
+1
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by liberalmanView Post

all major religions were considered cults when they started and now they are looked at as religions because of the millions of members they have worldwide.

christianity: 2.1 billion
islam: 1.5 billion
secular/nonreligious/agnostic/atheist: 1.1 billion
hinduism: 900 million
chinese traditional religion: 394 million
buddhism: 376 million
primal-indigenous: 300 million
african traditional & diasporic: 100 million
sikhism: 23 million
juche: 19 million
spiritism: 15 million
judaism: 14 million
baha'i: 7 million
jainism: 4.2 million
shinto: 4 million
cao dai: 4 million
zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
tenrikyo: 2 million
neo-paganism: 1 million
unitarian-universalism: 800 thousand
rastafarianism: 600 thousand
scientology: 500 thousand

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/claims_to_be_the_fastest-growing_religion (external - login to view)
the records of the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints show membership growth every decade since its beginning in the 1830s. Following initial growth rates that averaged 10% to 25% per year in the 1830s through 1850s, it grew at about 4% per year through the last four decades of the 19th century. After a steady slowing of growth in the first four decades of the 20th century to a rate of about 2% per year in the 1930s (the great depression years), growth boomed to an average of 6% per year for the decade around 1960, staying around 4% to 5% through 1990. After 1990, average annual growth again slowed steadily to a rate around 2.5% for the first decade of the 21st century, still double the world population growth rate of 1.2% for the same period.

http://www.mormonwiki.com/mormon_population (external - login to view)
the church of jesus christ of latter-day saints has over 14 million members, with more than half of those members living outside the united states. Wards (the name for a congregation) and branches (similar to wards but smaller) of the church can be found in 162 countries.


the mormons rely on missionaries and a strict code of conduct that they live by to bring new members into their church.

the mormon church is less than 200 years old if they survive another 500 years as a religion with a growth rate as they enjoy today, then they will be considered a main stream like all the other major religions.





Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

Of all the flavors of Christianity, the one thing they seem to have in common is the belief that salvation was not possible for the general populace until Jesus died for humanity.

You can think Jesus was a decent guy, Islam (and Judaism?) even goes so far, but if you don't think Jesus died for your sins, you are not Christian.

That makes Mormons Christians. As for the cult vs. religion question, I think if freedom of religion means anything it means that there is no such thing as a cult.

what is christian ?..... to me, just like a Jew ,Conservative , a liberal ,Muslim or Jehovah witness it is only a label ,a word which can be used for different purposes depending on your needs and the nature of your self image .

Quote: Originally Posted by chinaView Post

what is a christian ?

what is christian ?..... to me, just like a Jew ,Conservative , a liberal ,Muslim or Jehovah witness it is only a label ,a word which can be used for different purposes depending on your needs and the nature of your self image .
 
Niflmir
+1
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by chinaView Post

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what is christian ?..... to me, just like a Jew ,Conservative , a liberal ,Muslim or Jehovah witness it is only a label ,a word which can be used for different purposes depending on your needs and the nature of your self image .


what is christian ?..... to me, just like a Jew ,Conservative , a liberal ,Muslim or Jehovah witness it is only a label ,a word which can be used for different purposes depending on your needs and the nature of your self image .

What is blue, but a label?

Semantic nihilism won't get you very far.

The piece in the OP seems intent on defining Christianity in such a way as to exclude Mormons, presumably because of some negative predisposition. I take a rational stance that a real definition of Christianity that does not encompass Judaism and Islam is possible and clearly encompasses Mormonism.

Moreover, by the definition I proposed. I am not a Christian. But by the definition of what it means to be Catholic according to the Catholic church, I am a Catholic.

But I am an atheist. A non-Christian, Catholic, atheist.
 
Cliffy
+2
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post


Moreover, by the definition I proposed. I am not a Christian. But by the definition of what it means to be Catholic according to the Catholic church, I am a Catholic.

But I am an atheist. A non-Christian, Catholic, atheist.

Sounds like you are a multiple personality.
 
eh1eh
+1
#23
All religions are cults that impede free thinking and freedom of self. IMHO
 
Cliffy
+1
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by eh1ehView Post

All religions are cults that impede free thinking and freedom of self. IMHO

They are as good as Border Collies at keeping large herds of sheeple under control. Sometimes a necessary thing, like communism or democracy.

The problem with your statement is that there are varying degrees with which people adhere to the dogmatic aspects of religion. Not everybody who is religious is strict in their application of the teachings. There is nothing inherently wrong with religious teachings, it is those who treat them dogmatically tend to be rigid in their thinking. Most religious people are usually too busy taking care of their lives to give it too much thought. Those who spend most of their lives thinking about their religion tend to be fundamentalist and those are the dangerous ones.
 
Spade
+1
#25
Posted earlier on another thread...

American Fascists Chris Hedges on The Hour CBC - YouTube

 
Cliffy
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by SpadeView Post

Posted earlier on another thread...

American Fascists Chris Hedges on The Hour CBC - YouTube

This guy is talking about Alley. Talk about being lead down the garden path. Sad.
 
Spade
#27
i know, the photographic negative of Xian teaching.

Alley needs serious deprogramming. You have any holy water and exorcism manuals?
 
Cliffy
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by SpadeView Post

i know, the photographic negative of Xian teaching.

Alley needs serious deprogramming. You have any holy water and exorcism manuals?

I have my own ways, but I think in his case we may need divine intervention.
 
Spade
#29
MUCSIBOV XAP

Some backwards Latin may help.

PS
I think Niflmir self-description applies to a large swath of Canadians.
 
taxslave
+2
#30
A cult is the church down the street from your own.
 

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