Privatizing Aboriginal Reserves


dumpthemonarchy
#1
Here an organization for lawyers is adamantly against privation of aboriginal reserve lands by Ottawa. Among other specious arguments they use is that aboriginals have a "spiritual" connection to the land. Comic. No one has a spiritual connection to the land, this is from the age of magic and superstition that science has destroyed with the Scientific Revolution. It is time the legal community got with the times.

The article states right wing zealots support this, odd, I've voted for the NDP.

Lawyers want the status quo, which means don't question the millions and billions of dollars that keep coming their way. Time to stop this Canadian corruption.


Why privatization of reserve lands risks aboriginal ruin (external - login to view)



Why privatization of reserve lands risks aboriginal ruin

by John Rwinski

September 24, 2010 issue


The federal government is exploring a voluntary regime of private ownership of reserve lands in Canada. This is an idea that is premature and short-sighted.

Advocates of this proposal say that the current communal stewardship of traditional lands by First Nations stifles development and stunts financial opportunities for individuals. By permitting private ownership, individuals would have the opportunity, among other things, to mortgage and sell lands.

In other words, what “they” want is for Canada’s indigenous peoples who live on reserves to be beholden to outside financial interests.
A near universal facet of indigenous cultures is a spiritual connection to land. Land is not to be bartered and sold; it is part of who we are. The inspirational tenet of this way of life is the spirit of working collaboratively for the greater good of the collective community, as opposed to the crass pursuit of individual gain at the expense of others.

Right-wing zealots call this pursuit of communal goals “socialism.” It is contrary to the ethnocentric conviction that one must be able to put a fence around one’s yard to be a “free” person. Of course for most, that fence means taking on hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt, by which multi-billion dollar banks make massive profits. The greed of lenders in turn leads to irresponsible loan commitments. This revered notion of private property very nearly put the world into financial ruin mere months ago.

Proponents of privatization exhibit a xenophobic distaste for the idea that an entire community can find a way to use land that benefits as many individuals as possible, without the need to trade this most sacred resource — so essential to the lives of everyone — like one would trade old hockey cards with schoolyard friends.

At present, governments and businesses owe billions of dollars to First Nations pursuant to treaties and for exploitation of traditional lands. Compensation is tediously slow in arriving and hard-fought by those who owe the money. Is this new proposal a distraction from the obligation to compensate aboriginal peoples for centuries of taking? It proposes the “privilege” of borrowing against the little bit of land yet to be stolen. Indigenous peoples can be debt-ridden like the rest of Canada — absolving the Crown from meeting its own financial and fiduciary obligations.

This philosophy is like saying, “We will give you all the crap you want for free, you just have to build a toilet.”
Debt without a means to escape it is merely enslavement to those holding economic power. Borrowing against the value of land may allow for improvements and access to cash. But lack of education and joblessness are endemic to the majority of reserves. With no job and little schooling, how does the borrower make payments on a traditional mortgage? The doomed answer is foreclosure, and a corresponding loss of reserve lands.

Far from a slippery slope, this is the harsh conclusion one must inevitably draw to the proposal to allow borrowing against individually-owned reserve lands.

Treaties and the constitution make it clear that the Crown owes aboriginal peoples the protection of aboriginal rights and lands. This includes the right to cultural protection, education, health care, natural resources and self-government. The Crown has failed miserably in meeting its obligations in this regard. Without first addressing these protections and correspondingly making the necessary financial commitment to establish these goals, resort to a private property regime only promises to shift aboriginal economic dependency from the Crown to lenders. This is a subtle way of completing the centuries-old goal of the colonizers — assimilation — now re-packaged as “economic opportunity.”

This is not to say that someday an on-reserve private property regime could not be a useful tool in the hands of our First Nations. Reserves near urban centres, equipped with adequate training, education and infrastructure, sufficient land to meet the needs of their members, and reasonable employment rates, may find some advantage to being able to borrow against and even market portions of their lands.

It is more difficult to foresee how privatization will assist remote communities. Lands in these territories will lack any significant market value. These are Canada’s most impoverished and troubled reserves, and aside from opportunistic resource companies, little outside interest in these lands exists.

The present-day government focus should be on ensuring the basic human rights of indigenous peoples, such as potable water, suitable housing, health, training and education, control of resources, and the honour and respect of culture and identity.
Until these foundations of self-sufficiency are solidly established, a culture of indebtedness will only serve to entrench economic and social dependence on the “rest” of Canadian society that treats the on-reserve aboriginal population as second-class citizens. Ultimately, the establishment of such a regime without first addressing other shortfalls risks the absorption and annihilation of our indigenous peoples.

John Rowinski is a sole practitioner in Brooklin, Ont. In addition to his civil litigation practice, he acts for First Nations in respect of claims, negotiations and all associated legal issues.

====================

An article from The Globe and Mail discussing the same topic.

First nations property rights: Going beyond the Indian Act - The Globe and Mail
 
Cliffy
+6
#2  Top Rated Post
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

Here an organization for lawyers is adamantly against privation of aboriginal reserve lands by Ottawa. Among other specious arguments they use is that aboriginals have a "spiritual" connection to the land. Comic. No one has a spiritual connection to the land, this is from the age of magic and superstition that science has destroyed with the Scientific Revolution. It is time the legal community got with the times.

As usual, you have no idea what you are talking about. Your concepts of other culture are akin to that of a white supremist. You compare everything to the only thing you think you know, which in your case, is exceedingly little. What you think about indigenous spirituality is like saying Catholics have no spiritual connection to the cross. I can only view your nonsense as trolling.
 
DaSleeper
+1
#3
He's just.......
 
karrie
+6 / -1
#4
So, from what I'm reading, we can't let natives own their own land because they can't handle financial planning for themselves? Seriously? There's just no winning for the natives is there. They should be a part of our citizenry, neighbours in every respect, but we can't allow them that because deep down the left wing thinks they're not quite 'us'. They need protecting, speaking for, hand holding. How frustrating.
 
Retired_Can_Soldier
+4
#5
Oh look another thread about Injuns from dump. Who would have guessed.
 
CDNBear
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

No one has a spiritual connection to the land, this is from the age of magic and superstition that science has destroyed with the Scientific Revolution.

Do you want me to list the natural medicines from First Nations that science uses today, in alphabetical order, or in order of importance?

Quote:

The article states right wing zealots support this, odd, I've voted for the NDP.

Odd, I'm accused of being a neocon and I support this.

Even more odd, it practically already exists.

Quote:

Lawyers want the status quo, which means don't question the millions and billions of dollars that keep coming their way. Time to stop this Canadian corruption.

Why would it stop if First nations were given legal title to the reservations they live on?

Quote: Originally Posted by DaSleeperView Post

He's just.......

He never likes what he catches though...

It usually hauls him out of the boat, chews him up and spits him out.
 
dumpthemonarchy
+1 / -1
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

As usual, you have no idea what you are talking about. Your concepts of other culture are akin to that of a white supremist. You compare everything to the only thing you think you know, which in your case, is exceedingly little. What you think about indigenous spirituality is like saying Catholics have no spiritual connection to the cross. I can only view your nonsense as trolling.

So-called spirituality should be private, and lawyers use this as part of a legal argument. Nonsense.

There are plenty of Canadians who believe people who live in Canada should be Canadians, they shouldn't consider themselves visitors to Canada. And silly boy, you don't need to be white to be Canadian. What we are getting constantly getting is people thinking they can live outside the system but are willing to enjoy the spoils of it. I see no logic in that and little good for the country. Tribal mentalities don't believe in equality and democracy, you need masses and millions for that, and it's called a nation state.

If you believe in the concept of citizen, like I do, you cannot be a white supremecist. Duh.

PC crowd here, anyone who disagrees with them get mud hurled at them, that's you Cliffy. Want immigration reduced from historic highs? RACIST!!!!!!! some say. No, just an intolerant representative of the PC crowd losing their marbles and wanting to limit discussion. Name callers are allowed, but they have to be called on their intolerance.

So, how much legal title do aboriginals get? Where does it end? It is not in my interest to never see an endgame here. Every year aboriginal issues cost more and seem less solveable. As a Canadian, I see a problem of endless process here. I don't like that.
 
CDNBear
+1
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

So-called spirituality should be private, and lawyers use this as part of a legal argument.

That's because it's very much a large part of Native Culture.

Quote:

Nonsense.

The disclaimer is supposed to go at the top of your posts.

Quote:

What we are getting constantly getting is people thinking they can live outside the system but are willing to enjoy the spoils of it.

In the case of the First nations, specifically the Haudenosuanee, our contract states that is exactly how we are to be. Two separate entities, walking the same path, equally. Plus of course, the perks of you paying rent.

Quote:

I see no logic in that and little good for the country.

You do see the logic in the existence of the country? It wouldn't exist if those contracts weren't in place.

Quote:

Tribal mentalities don't believe in equality and democracy, you need masses and millions for that, and it's called a nation state.

You keep saying this completely fallacious statement, and I keep proving it wrong.

That is what makes you a bigot.

Quote:

If you believe in the concept of citizen, like I do, you cannot be a white supremecist.

That's fine, because you're just a simple minded bigot.

Quote:

Duh.

The smartest thing you've said in this thread.

Quote:

PC crowd here, anyone who disagrees with them get mud hurled at them, that's you Cliffy.

Yes, we already know you don't like facts, you don't have to call them mud.

Quote:

Name callers are allowed, but they have to be called on their intolerance.

Call me on what? I freely admit having little tolerance for imbecilic bigots.

Quote:

So, how much legal title do aboriginals get?

I have legal title to my home, my car, my business.

Quote:

Where does it end?

Never.

Quote:

It is not in my interest to never see an endgame here.

This is your biggest problem, you think it's all about you.

Quote:

Every year aboriginal issues cost more and seem less solveable. As a Canadian, I see a problem of endless process here. I don't like that.

Then try constructive change.

You present course, is a dismal uneducated failure.
 
damngrumpy
+5
#9
I am not aboriginal but I have property I have been entrusted with on Cape Breton Island.
Our family has a connection to that land that goes back several generations. As for a
spiritual connection, I would say yes. A couple of months ago I might not have agreed with
that statement but today I do. I walked across it for the first time as belonging to me. My
Great Grand father, my Grandfather and my Father owned it before me as it became mine
only two years ago.
I remember them talking about it being on a Queen Victoria Deed and how they felt about it.
I remember their descriptions and its location and how it fit into their culture, and it being by
the sea. Yes I would say that people can develop a spiritual connection to a land that is part
of your heritage.
Some people don't have and that is fine, but when you are critical of natives or others that do,
I feel you may be boarding on being disrespectful of other peoples beliefs. It may be intentional
or by a lack of understand of others. I am not outraged though I just feel sorry for you in the fact
that you cannot grasp how other feel. You notice I did not say how others think, but how they
feel there is a difference between the two.
That is too bad because we can learn a great deal about people and how others view the world
if we can be respectful about others feel about things.
I do recognize there are questions within the native communities and its their business the direction
they want to go. I also have a daughter who we adopted decades ago and she has her status
and so do the grand children. I listen to the heritage discussions and I do not believe them to be
made of superstitions or anything else, it is part of their belief system and appreciation of the world
around them. People should know something about which the speak before making comments that
are not based in fact or substance.
 
CDNBear
+1
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by damngrumpyView Post

People should know something about which the speak before making comments that
are not based in fact or substance.

Truer words could not be spoken!!!

That's something dump needs to work on badly.

Excellent post Grumpy!
 
damngrumpy
+4
#11
CDNBear I think if we would have listened to the natives decades ago maybe centuries ago we
would not need to have the environmental sustainability discussions we are all engaging in today.
The original natives in this country regarded themselves as custodians of the land and thus they
followed the principles of good environmental stewardship.
The others came from afar and decided to develop in unsustainable ways and engaged in the
cosmetic yard treatments and damning the rivers and lakes without regard for the consequences
of the future.
Now I am not saying that development is a bad thing, on the contrary, what I am saying is the
kind of development that was practiced was to the detriment of society in the long run because the
method did not support the activity. Proof of that lies in the pudding, we have housing in the path
of huge floods and the infrastructure costs of maintaining what we built adds to the national debt
and deficit annually. We built things for profit not for the future benefits to be realized for public good.
Yes you can have things built for profit and public good but for the most part over the last one hundred
years that has not been our focus. We have concentrated on building it cheaply and quality can be
considered later. Not in everything but all too often in most things. Land is at the heart of it and land
is where peoples pride and spirit connect to their environment. Ask any farmer, he will tell you.
 
CDNBear
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by damngrumpyView Post

CDNBear I think if we would have listened to the natives decades ago maybe centuries ago we
would not need to have the environmental sustainability discussions we are all engaging in today.
The original natives in this country regarded themselves as custodians of the land and thus they
followed the principles of good environmental stewardship.

I wish I could agree.

But the truth is, they would literally lay waste to a parcel of land. Then move on to more fertile pastures.

The visage you speak of came to life in the mid sixties and early seventies, as the hippy movement began joining forces with the Native rights movement.

Although some early practices were sustainable, as an area left barren, would heal over time, some were not and left many species in danger or decimated altogether.. The overall footprint left by First Nations was not nearly as long lasting or

Quote:

The others came from afar and decided to develop in unsustainable ways and engaged in the
cosmetic yard treatments and damning the rivers and lakes without regard for the consequences
of the future.

That's a much larger footprint, that simply doesn't go away.

Quote:

Now I am not saying that development is a bad thing, on the contrary, what I am saying is the
kind of development that was practiced was to the detriment of society in the long run because the
method did not support the activity. Proof of that lies in the pudding, we have housing in the path
of huge floods and the infrastructure costs of maintaining what we built adds to the national debt
and deficit annually. We built things for profit not for the future benefits to be realized for public good.
Yes you can have things built for profit and public good but for the most part over the last one hundred
years that has not been our focus. We have concentrated on building it cheaply and quality can be
considered later. Not in everything but all too often in most things. Land is at the heart of it and land
is where peoples pride and spirit connect to their environment. Ask any farmer, he will tell you.

Can't argue with that.
 
WLDB
#13
If they want to own the land, I say let them. I was actually under the impression that they already owned the land. I don't know a great deal about native issues, even though I'm from northern Ontario and have a cousin who is half native and a lawyer dealing with these types of issues.
 
petros
#14
Quote:

Land is at the heart of it and land is where peoples pride and spirit connect to their environment. Ask any farmer, he will tell you.

I`m damn glad the land has road that are connected to the bank. My favourite environment.
 
taxslave
#15
Dumpy has a valid point in that it is in no ones best interests(except the mostly white lawyers) to keep pursuing land claims through endless court battles. It is particularly bad in B.C. where there are not many treaties to start with and the few new ones have been moving at glacial speed. There has to be a less costly method.
 
DaSleeper
+3
#16
 
WLDB
+3
#17
Its not so much the money that bothers me but the way its managed. The system managing native land has way too much corruption on the part of both natives and others. There is little to no opportunity on reserves for education or jobs from what I've seen on the half dozen I've been to. Suicide rates are through the roof on kids and teens. Last year on a reserve not that far from my home town an 11 year old hung himself. Imagine losing all hope at that age. These treaties/systems need serious reform.
 
dumpthemonarchy
-1
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by WLDBView Post

Its not so much the money that bothers me but the way its managed. The system managing native land has way too much corruption on the part of both natives and others. There is little to no opportunity on reserves for education or jobs from what I've seen on the half dozen I've been to. Suicide rates are through the roof on kids and teens. Last year on a reserve not that far from my home town an 11 year old hung himself. Imagine losing all hope at that age. These treaties/systems need serious reform.

Most of us just yawn at the suicides because it natives don't care, no one else will. They are poor country people left to languish as rich govts and a rich country surrounds them. They are cultural prisoners living in squalor, yet they are surrounded by wealth. They are brainwashed into thinking that the white people will one day "get off our land and paradise will return." Yet their lawyer leaders keep pushing lush land claims that ensure they always have clean water, education and jobs. Pursuing legalities, but not justice. This patient will be on the operating table forever, always inches away from death. But clinically dead.

The money should concern us a bit, it's about ten billion per year from the federal govt. Let's see The $10 billion the feds spend on Indians does not include EI. Then there are welfare and medical costs from provincial govts.

$10,000,000,000 / 33,000,000 = $300 cost per Canadian per year in taxes for Indians
$10,000,000,000 / 1,200,000 = $8300 taxes to one Indian per year
 
CDNBear
+3
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

Most of us just yawn at the suicides because it natives don't care, no one else will.

Do you have proof First Nations don't care?

Quote:

They are poor country people left to languish as rich govts and a rich country surrounds them. They are cultural prisoners living in squalor, yet they are surrounded by wealth.

How many times do I have to embarrass you?









And that was just a cursory search for Rama First Nations.

Quote:

They are brainwashed into thinking that the white people will one day "get off our land and paradise will return." Yet their lawyer leaders keep pushing lush land claims that ensure they always have clean water, education and jobs. Pursuing legalities, but not justice.

Settling land claims would be justice. Just not the justice you seek.

Quote:

This patient will be on the operating table forever, always inches away from death. But clinically dead.

Like your brain.

Quote:

The money should concern us a bit, it's about ten billion per year from the federal govt. Let's see The $10 billion the feds spend on Indians does not include EI. Then there are welfare and medical costs from provincial govts.

$10,000,000,000 / 33,000,000 = $300 cost per Canadian per year in taxes for Indians
$10,000,000,000 / 1,200,000 = $8300 taxes to one Indian per year

Ya, that's been thoroughly addressed here...

forums.canadiancontent.net/ca...imbalance.html (external - login to view)

Try actually readin it. You might not look so stupid the next time you post.
 
WLDB
+2
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

Most of us just yawn at the suicides because it natives don't care, no one else will.

These are children who had no choice in where they were born and who their people were to be. Assuming you are right and the natives don't care (which I know isnt true as I know natives who have lost family members to suicide) it does not justify not caring or "yawning". They are just children and their deaths were preventable.
 
dumpthemonarchy
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by WLDBView Post

These are children who had no choice in where they were born and who their people were to be. Assuming you are right and the natives don't care (which I know isnt true as I know natives who have lost family members to suicide) it does not justify not caring or "yawning". They are just children and their deaths were preventable.

I never said natives don't care, but they don't seem to be doing much about their situation. They're adults, they have to do things for themselves.

Individually we care, it is a tragedy, but as a collective, Canadians don't care because these suicides keep occurring. The rate that these suicides occur is far above the national average and nothing is done. Usually, when we see something broken, we try to fix it. That is not happening here. No interventions here, and they are not permitted because we see them as outsiders, so we let them wallow in their squalor.
 
CDNBear
+1
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

I never said natives don't care...

That is exactly what you said...

Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

Most of us just yawn at the suicides because it natives don't care, no one else will.


Quote:

... but they don't seem to be doing much about their situation.

{Turtle Island Native Network} • View topic - National Aboriginal Youth Suicide Prevention Strategy (external - login to view)
{Turtle Island Native Network} • View topic - 2006 Aboriginal Youth Suicide Prevention Walk (external - login to view)
{Turtle Island Native Network} • View topic - Intervention, prevention - shine light on a dark subject (external - login to view)

And that's just from one source.

Quote:

They're adults, they have to do things for themselves.

Can you prove they don't?

Quote:

Individually we care, it is a tragedy, but as a collective, Canadians don't care because these suicides keep occurring.

Can you back that up?

Quote:

The rate that these suicides occur is far above the national average and nothing is done.

Well I already proved the latter to be a lie. Sadly the former is quite true, and would likely only be exacerbated by any policy you'd support.

Quote:

Usually, when we see something broken, we try to fix it. That is not happening here. No interventions here, and they are not permitted because we see them as outsiders, so we let them wallow in their squalor.

I've already proven that statement to be a complete lie.

How long do you plan on lying through your eye teeth?

Are you ever embarrassed by how easy I prove you to be a bigot and a liar?
 
shadowshiv
+1
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by dumpthemonarchyView Post

They are poor country people left to languish as rich govts and a rich country surrounds them. They are cultural prisoners living in squalor, yet they are surrounded by wealth.

The same can be said about pretty much everyone. It doesn't matter who you are, or what colour of skin you have. There are poor people in all the races and creeds. Saying that all First Nations are living in squalor is incorrect.
 
CDNBear
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by shadowshivView Post

The same can be said about pretty much everyone. It doesn't matter who you are, or what colour of skin you have. There are poor people in all the races and creeds. Saying that all First Nations are living in squalor is incorrect.

It isn't just incorrect, it's an outright lie.

I'm not due to head back up to Rama for a couple weeks. But rest assured, I will be bringing my camera and I'll force feed dumpster some more reality.
 
shadowshiv
+1
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

It isn't just incorrect, it's an outright lie.

I'm not due to head back up to Rama for a couple weeks. But rest assured, I will be bringing my camera and I'll force feed dumpster some more reality.

I was just trying to be kind to him.
 
CDNBear
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by shadowshivView Post

I was just trying to be kind to him.

What is this word K I N D you speak of?
 
petros
+1
#27
Dumpster....LMFAO!!!
 
shadowshiv
+2
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

What is this word K I N D you speak of?

Hmmmm. It could stand for Keep It Nice, Dummy, but I could be mistaken.
 
CDNBear
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

Dumpster....LMFAO!!!

It seemed only fitting since he began putting that "Landfill" disclaimer on his posts.

Quote: Originally Posted by shadowshivView Post

Hmmmm. It could stand for Keep It Nice, Dummy, but I could be mistaken.

I can only keep it nice with people who express an obvious bigotry, so long, before they get what they so richly deserve.

The back of my virtual paw.
 
shadowshiv
+1
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

It seemed only fitting since he began putting that "Landfill" disclaimer on his posts.

I can only keep it nice with people who express an obvious bigotry, so long, before they get what they so richly deserve.

The back of my virtual paw.

I know that, Bear. I am glad you are able to keep it remarkably civil sometimes especially considering some of the topics discussed.
 

Similar Threads

29
190
Nationalize Canadian oil reserves!!!!
by Socrates the Greek | Jul 5th, 2008
2
Oil Shale Reserves
by I think not | May 8th, 2006
0
Privatizing the Apocalypse
by darkbeaver | Apr 3rd, 2006
no new posts