Privatizing Aboriginal Reserves


Cannuck
#61
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

I personally don't care but I know that many natives do because the question has come up before. Co-ops- strata can and do dictate who you can sell your holdings to. Governments have prevented the sale of companies, so it does happen.

I'm sure it happens. The question is why anybody would want it. I certainly don't want the government (or anybody else for that matter) telling me who I can or can't sell my house or cabin to.
 
ironsides
#62
If they owned their own lands, would they also own all the mineral rights as well?
 
Cannuck
#63
Quote: Originally Posted by ironsidesView Post

If they owned their own lands, would they also own all the mineral rights as well?

Are you talking individually or collectively?
 
ironsides
#64
Quote: Originally Posted by CannuckView Post

Are you talking individually or collectively?

Collectively as a tribe or nation within the Canadian nation. (Provinces like our States will have minimal of no control except through the National government.)
 
CDNBear
+3
#65
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

Or so dilute the gene pool that there are no longer any First Nations. One can see "privatization" as a form of that.

And many do.

Quote:

I really like the idea of autonomous first nations. Mostly because I like seeing anyone stick it to the government. I wish they would do more things like the casinos though. Why haven't they been able to make offshore tax havens, legalized drugs, and less gun control? I'd also like to see them have their own passports.

I'd like to see autonomous First Nations as well, sadly I see no indication in the behavior of elected leaders, that would suggest it to be anything but disastrous.

There are servers for online gambling on some reserves in Quebec, that have staved off gov't intrusion. But the Feds still maintain a level of control that restricts internal FN legislation that is contrary to that of the RoC.

The Haudenosuanee have had an internationally recognized passport for quite sometime. Only recently was it challenged due to the fact that it didn't meet contemporary security features/requirements.

Quote:

The truth seems to be that parliament says they are a nation then sends in our police. Isn't that an act of war?

Several Nations that have not incorporated, or ceded sovereignty think so.

Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

I am in favor of turning reserves into something approximating municipalities and the individual may own the land their house sits on. Now wether the funding comes from locally raised taxes or comes from the federal government is immaterial as long as it is spent wisely and openly accounted for. Without doing a whole lot of research that I don't have time for and Bear may know the answer to but there may be a huge difference between the east where most bands are covered by treaty rights that were made many years ago and the west where there are not many treaties. One of the problems with private ownership of reserve lands that has been alluded to is non band members buying homes on the rez. I'm sure there could be a legal way of preventing this but I wouldn't know how to word it. Something like Co Ops perhaps? In any event the control over development must be made closer to home and not in Ottawa.

There is a massive difference between east and west. Which is the stumbling block for many here, that base their views solely on what they perceive in their respective province.

It is also the reason I ask these people which Nations are Canadian citizens, which aren't?

For some that claim superior problem solving skills, the basic questions of what Nations are sovereign and which aren't? Who recognizes the AFN and who doesn't? Who has incorporated, who has hasn't? Who has ceded full sovereignty? Who has had autonomous self governance for centuries? Seem problematic and contrary to their claims of problem solving skills, only exposes their simplistic ignorance.

If there is to be any discussion on how to remedy moving forward, the beginning is educating oneself on the complexity of the treaty system and what Nations, stand where within it (Not directed at you).

Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

But these are lands that are ostensibly owned by an internal nation. Many people own land in countries that they are not citizens of, and there is no problem for the nation. The problem comes for the private landowner when the nation decides to take the land for eminent domain purposes or otherwise. I say ostensibly, because it really looks to me like people continue to consider reserves to be Canadian lands and not lands owned by an internal nation, one of the First Nations.

There is private ownership on reservations here.

Take Rama as an example (Because my wife is Anish and I have the best contemporary understanding of real property situations in that respect). People own the land under their own homes. If they choose to sell, under the Indian Act, it is to be sold to other Band members, or the council.

The council, can and has sold reserve land to non Native peoples, with Federal approval, as well as set up a leasing system that generates general income. As have many reservations in Ontario, and Quebec.

Quote: Originally Posted by CannuckView Post

That's because they aren't really considered "nations".

Incorrect, not the first time. They are considered nations, they aren't treated like fully autonomous Nations.

Quote:

It's just a PC term to appease some people.

And erroneously interpreted by you. It's been proven time and time again, that the bulk of First Nations have met domestic and international standards, and have done so, since before Canada could.

Quote:

I believe that, if the government wants to treat them like nations, they should treat them like nations and on the flip side these nations should act like nations.

Well I'm glad you now admit that they are Nations and should be treated as such.

How is it hey don't act like Nations?

Quote:

Why would you want to prevent an aboriginal from selling his property to whomever he/she chooses?

To prevent the ability of corrupt councils, from exploiting poverty and a lack of education of the general populace. As well as to prevent the decimation of reserved lands.

Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

But they are treated like a sovereign nations for the purposes of casinos and taxes... so it seems they can win some political battles. I'd like to see them truly sovereign.

In Ontario, casino's fall under the control of the OLG. It was negotiated, to prevent other reserves from building casino's. That reserves like Rama and Scugog Island would share their casino profits with other Nations in the area.

Taxes are a treaty negotiate element, and not applicable to all First Nations, in all treaties, across Canada.

Quote: Originally Posted by CannuckView Post

I have no problem with that but in order for it to happen, first nations need to want it. I've seen no evidence that they do. I'd be truly surprised if more than 2 or 3 percent of aboriginals would want to give up their Canadian citizenship.

I'd be surprised if you actually knew how many First nations have Canadian citizenship.

You keep putting the cart before the horse. Shouldn't the very first questions be, who is a sovereign and who is a Canadian citizen? Who recognizes the AFN and who doesn't? Who has incorporated, who has hasn't? Who has ceded full sovereignty, who has had autonomous self governance for centuries? That's the difference between you and I. When it comes to problem solving, I like to start at the beginning and work my way logically through the problem. It may be more difficult than the generalizations you use, but in the long run, I think the extra effort is worth it.

Quote: Originally Posted by ironsidesView Post

If they owned their own lands, would they also own all the mineral rights as well?

A question that has been fought to the SCoC, a few times now. And because of the complexity of the treaty system, will be again. There isn't blanket legislation that gives mineral rights to the individual Nations, that sit on them.
Last edited by CDNBear; Jan 1st, 2012 at 09:11 AM..
 
petros
+1
#66
Saskatchewan First Nation concerned about deal to build potash mine - thestar.com
 
ironsides
#67
That is the sad part, and if managed properly by the Nations that could bring so much income directly to them, which in turn provide tax's to Canada after all first Nations people are given full Canadian citizenship as well as keeping their own.
 
CDNBear
+1
#68
The influence of tree huggers with an agenda, on the perspectives of some FN's people, is part of the reason many reserves lose out on lucrative deals.

Quote: Originally Posted by ironsidesView Post

That is the sad part, and if managed properly by the Nations that could bring so much income directly to them, which in turn provide tax's to Canada after all first Nations people are given full Canadian citizenship as well as keeping their own.

Given full Canadian citizenship? Many have no need of it. Some have even created Warrior societies to prevent it!
 
petros
+2
#69
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

The influence of tree huggers with an agenda, on the perspectives of some FN's people, is part of the reason many reserves lose out on lucrative deals.

Thankfully this one is a go. With a mine going in, other business opportunities will out number mining jobs. Even something as simplistic as a tow truck or tire repair shop will do very well.
 
Cannuck
#70
Quote: Originally Posted by ironsidesView Post

Collectively as a tribe or nation within the Canadian nation. (Provinces like our States will have minimal of no control except through the National government.)

What do you mean when you say "within the Canadian nation"? Are you talking geographically?
 
CDNBear
#71
Tough questions, and revelations get ignored by the usual suspects.
 
Cannuck
#72
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

Tough questions, and revelations get ignored by the usual suspects.

I know but that's your MO so what can you do.
 
CDNBear
#73
Quote: Originally Posted by CannuckView Post

I know but that's your MO so what can you do.

I know my MO is to ask tough questions, your grasp of the obvious, is nothing less than breath taking. The fact that you just realized that that's my MO, is funny. But goes a long to way explaining why I find your claims and posts to be extremely entertaining and humourous.

Keep working on those problem solving skills, you might be able to answer my questions one day, instead of having to deflect/dodge.
 
Cannuck
#74
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

I know my MO is to ask tough questions

Then maybe you should just stick to that.
 
CDNBear
#75
Quote: Originally Posted by CannuckView Post

Then maybe you should just stick to that.

Your continued examples of hypocrisy aside. I do, I will. Just like you'll stick to dodging them. Simply because you haven't clue one, where the problem begins, without fabrications, generalization and stereotyping.
Last edited by CDNBear; Jan 1st, 2012 at 11:07 AM..
 
Cannuck
#76
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

Your continued examples of hypocrisy aside. I do, I will. Just like you'll stick to dodging them. Simply because you haven't clue one, where the problem begins, without fabrications, generalization and stereotyping.

Perhaps it would also help if you don't keep asking the same stupid questions over and over again that have already been answered. That type of nonsense works when you are "debating" some people that eventually tire of the tactic and move on.
 
CDNBear
#77
Quote: Originally Posted by CannuckView Post

Perhaps it would also help if you don't keep asking the same stupid questions over and over again that have already been answered.

The only reason you claim they're stupid questions is, you can't answer them. Which is why you just lied about having answered them.

Maybe you should stick to your Justin Beiber forum. This adult conversation stuff seems to be over your head.
 
Cannuck
#78
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

The only reason you claim they're stupid questions is, you can't answer them. Which is why you just lied about having answered them.

I have answered them. It's really not my fault if you don't like my answer. Maybe you can start a support group for special interest hacks that get publicly pwned. It might help you get over some of your embarrassment.
 
CDNBear
#79
Quote: Originally Posted by CannuckView Post

I have answered them. It's really not my fault if you don't like my answer. Maybe you can start a support group for special interest hacks that get publicly pwned. It might help you get over some of your embarrassment.

I'm well aware of your ability to make fallacious and oft delusional claims. It's been made perfectly clear, over and over.

What hasn't been made perfectly clear, not even in the slightest, are your claimed superior problem solving skills.

I look forward to more of your patented fallacious claims, and nothing of any relevance to the problems facing FN's, beyond that of which you formulate from conjecture and manure.
 
Ron in Regina
+2
#80
Can this Thread go back to the topic in the O. P. please.
The....whatever it is, between you two is....it's distracting
from the topic and has gotten old, at best.
 
CDNBear
#81
Quote: Originally Posted by Ron in ReginaView Post

Can this Thread go back to the topic in the O. P. please.
The....whatever it is, between you two is....it's distracting
from the topic and has gotten old, at best.

Just calling out the lies and hypocrisy of the bigots Ron. Perhaps if you asked cannuck to refrain from posting lies and stick to facts. We could forgo the exercise.
 
Cannuck
#82
Quote: Originally Posted by Ron in ReginaView Post

Can this Thread go back to the topic in the O. P. please.
The....whatever it is, between you two is....it's distracting
from the topic and has gotten old, at best.

Perhaps if you asked CB to refrain from posting lies and stick to facts. We could forgo the exercise....or better yet, if he could actually post one of the lies that he thinks I've said, we could deal with it and move on. Maybe he could start a "Cannucks Lies" thread and you can move all this stuff there.
 
CDNBear
#83
Quote: Originally Posted by CannuckView Post

Perhaps if you asked CB to refrain from posting lies and stick to facts. We could forgo the exercise....

Maybe you can point them out.

Although I have no doubts you won't.

Quote:

... or better yet, if he could actually post one of the lies that he thinks I've said, we could deal with it and move on. Maybe he could start a "Cannucks Lies" thread and you can move all this stuff there.

Already done. My sig and this thread (external - login to view).

All which you've been meticulously careful about dancing around ever addressing your fallacious accusations.

Feel free to step up to the plate though. It would be a refreshing change from your usual cowardice.
 
Retired_Can_Soldier
+1
#84
Quote: Originally Posted by Ron in ReginaView Post

Can this Thread go back to the topic in the O. P. please.
The....whatever it is, between you two is....it's distracting
from the topic and has gotten old, at best.

I think it's time for a new avatar. That Triumph the Insult Comic Dog isn't really befitting of a man who is supposed to be a Moderator of Canada's Flagship Forum.
 
L Gilbert
+1
#85
Personally, I think segregation is a bit stupid, as are the idea of countries. As Anna likes pointing out, there's only one human race and it started about 250,000 years ago in southeast Africa. People and groups can easily operate their own lifestyles and such as they see fit within a collective population. The biggest stumbling block to that I see, is governments.
 
talloola
+1
#86
Quote: Originally Posted by L GilbertView Post

Personally, I think segregation is a bit stupid, as are the idea of countries. As Anna likes pointing out, there's only one human race and it started about 250,000 years ago in southeast Africa. People and groups can easily operate their own lifestyles and such as they see fit within a collective population. The biggest stumbling block to that I see, is governments.

hi gil, so glad to see you here again, I don't usually come into this thread, but enjoy reading how Bear
posts on this subject, very intelligent, knowledgeable, and tough, makes my day.

don't be a stranger now.

HAPPY NEW YEAR.
 
Cannuck
#87
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

Already done. My sig and this thread (external - login to view).

Silly claims are not the same as lies. Nice try though. Surely you can do better than that.
 
CDNBear
#88
Quote: Originally Posted by CannuckView Post

Silly claims are not the same as lies.

Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

All which you've been meticulously careful about dancing around ever addressing your fallacious accusations.

And continue to do so.

It's OK cannuck. You don't have to address them. That says far more about them and you, than I can.
 
Cannuck
#89
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

And continue to do so.

It's OK cannuck. You don't have to address them. That says far more about them and you, than I can.

I have said repeatedly that I am prepared to address them if you ever bother to point them out. All you've ever done is provide links to your own threads where you repeat your accusations. It's nice that you find something to keep you busy.
 
CDNBear
#90
Quote: Originally Posted by CannuckView Post

I have said repeatedly that I am prepared to address them if you ever bother to point them out. All you've ever done is provide links to your own threads where you repeat your accusations. It's nice that you find something to keep you busy.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but with people who are artful at dodging and dancing around, like yourself, it's sometimes a hazard.

Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

All which you've been meticulously careful about dancing around ever addressing your fallacious accusations.

And will continue to do so.

Simply because you know you were wrong, but lack the fortitude to admit it.

It's OK cannuck, you seem to be the only person under the impression you have any credibility, are not a hypocrite, and have shown, or will show anything resembling integrity.

Carry on, your posts simply prove my point.
 

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