Israel and Gaza Settlements - Legal or not?

Goober

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Israel and Gaza Settlements - Legal or not. I will admit I am over my head here and would like to hear some reasonable and measured opinion on this article - Is that possible?
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/12/29/david-m-phillips-the-myth-of-israel-s-illegal-settlements.aspx

The conviction that Jewish settlements in the West Bank are illegal is now so commonly accepted, it hardly seems as though the matter is even open for discussion. But it is. Decades of argument about the issue have obscured the complex legal question about which a supposedly overwhelming verdict of guilty has been rendered against settlement policy. There can be no doubt that this avalanche of negative opinion has been deeply influenced by the settlements’ unpopularity around the world and even within Israel itself. Yet, while one may debate the wisdom of Israeli settlements, the idea that they are imprudent is quite different from branding them as illegal. Indeed, the analysis underlying the conclusion that the settlements violate international law depends entirely on an acceptance of the Palestinian narrative that the West Bank is “Arab” land. Followed to its logical conclusion — as some have done — this narrative precludes the legitimacy of Israel itself.

These arguments date back to the aftermath of the Six-Day War. When Israel went into battle in June 1967, its objective was clear: to remove the Arab military threat to its existence. Following its victory, the Jewish state faced a new challenge: what to do with the territorial fruits of that triumph. While many Israelis assumed that the overwhelming nature of their victory would shock the Arab world into coming to terms with their legitimacy and making peace, they would soon be disabused of this belief. At the end of August 1967, the heads of eight countries, including Egypt, Syria, and Jordan (all of which lost land as the result of their failed policy of confrontation with Israel), met at a summit in Khartoum, Sudan, and agreed to the three principles that were to guide the Arab world’s post-war stands: no peace with Israel, no recognition of Israel, and no negotiations with Israel. Though many Israelis hoped to trade most if not all the conquered lands for peace, they would have no takers. This set the stage for decades of their nation’s control of these territories.

The attachment of Israelis to the newly unified city of Jerusalem led to its quick annexation, and Jewish neighbourhoods were planted on its flanks in the hope that this would render unification irrevocable. A similar motivation for returning Jewish life to the West Bank, the place where Jewish history began — albeit one that did not reflect the same strong consensus as that which underpinned the drive to hold on to Jerusalem — led to the fitful process that, over the course of the next several decades, produced numerous Jewish settlements throughout this area for a variety of reasons, including strategic, historical and/or religious considerations. In contrast, settlements created by Israel in the Egyptian Sinai or the Syrian Golan were primarily based initially on the strategic value of the terrain.

Over the course of the years to come, there was little dispute about Egypt’s sovereign right to the Sinai, and it was eventually returned after Nasser’s successor, Anwar Sadat, broke the Arab consensus and made peace with Israel. Though the rulers of Syria have, to date, preferred the continuance of belligerency to a similar decision to end the conflict, the question of their right to the return of the Golan in the event of peace seems to hinge more on the nature of the regime in Damascus than any dispute about the provenance of Syria’s title to the land.

The question of the legal status of the West Bank, as well as Jerusalem, is not so easily resolved. To understand why this is the case, we must first revisit the history of the region in the 20th century.

Though routinely referred to nowadays as “Palestinian” land, at no point in history has Jerusalem or the West Bank been under Palestinian Arab sovereignty in any sense of the term. For several hundred years leading up to World War I, all of Israel, the Kingdom of Jordan, and the putative state of Palestine were merely provinces of the Ottoman Empire. After British-led Allied troops routed the Turks from the country in 1917-18, the League of Nations blessed Britain’s occupation with a document that gave the British conditional control granted under a mandate. It empowered Britain to facilitate the creation of a “Jewish National Home” while respecting the rights of the native Arab population. British Colonial Secretary Winston Churchill later partitioned the mandate in 1922 and gave the East Bank of the Jordan to his country’s Hashemite Arab allies, who created the Kingdom of Jordan there under British tutelage.

Following World War II, the League of Nations’ successor, the United Nations, voted in November 1947 to partition the remaining portion of the land into Arab and Jewish states. While the Jews accepted partition, the Arabs did not, and after the British decamped in May 1948, Jordan joined with four other Arab countries to invade the fledgling Jewish state on the first day of its existence. Though Israel survived the onslaught, the fighting left the Jordanians in control of what would come to be known as the West Bank as well as approximately half of Jerusalem, including the Old City. Those Jewish communities in the West Bank that had existed prior to the Arab invasion were demolished, as was the Jewish quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem.

After the ceasefire that ended Israel’s War of Independence in 1948, Jordan annexed both the West Bank and East Jerusalem. But, as was the case when Israel annexed those same parts of the ancient city that it would win back 19 years later, the world largely ignored this attempt to legitimize Jordan’s presence. Only Jordan’s allies, Britain and Pakistan, recognized its claims of sovereignty. After King Hussein’s disastrous decision to ally himself with Egypt’s Nasser during the prelude to June 1967, Jordan was evicted from the lands it had won in 1948.

This left open the question of the sovereign authority over the West Bank. The legal vacuum in which Israel operated in the West Bank after 1967 was exacerbated by Jordan’s subsequent stubborn refusal to engage in talks about the future of these territories. King Hussein was initially deterred from dealing with the issue by the three “no’s” of Khartoum. Soon enough, he was taught a real-world lesson by the Palestine Liberation Organization, which fomented a bloody civil war against him and his regime in 1970. With the open support of Israel, Hussein survived that threat to his throne, but his desire to reduce rather than enlarge the Palestinian population in his kingdom ultimately led him to disavow any further claim to the lands he had lost in 1967. Eventually, this stance was formalized by Jordan on July 31, 1988.

Thus, if the charge that Israel’s hold on the territories is illegal is based on the charge of theft from its previous owners, Jordan’s own illegitimacy on matters of legal title and its subsequent withdrawal from the fray makes that legal case a losing one. Well before Jordan’s renunciation, Eugene Rostow, former dean of Yale Law School and undersecretary of state for political affairs in 1967 during the Six-Day War, argued that the West Bank should be considered “unallocated territory,” once part of the Ottoman Empire. From this perspective, Israel, rather than simply “a belligerent occupant,” had the status of a “claimant to the territory.”


To Rostow, “Jews have a right to settle in it under the Mandate,” a right he declared to be “unchallengeable as a matter of law.” In accord with these views, Israel has historically characterized the West Bank as “disputed territory” (although some senior government officials have more recently begun to use the term “occupied territory”).

Because neither Great Britain, as the former trustee under the League of Nations mandate, nor the since deceased Ottoman Empire — the former sovereigns prior to the Jordanians — is desirous or capable of standing up as the injured party to put Israel in the dock, we must therefore ask: On what points of law does the case against Israel stand?

International-law arguments against the settlements have rested primarily upon two sources. First are the 1907 Hague Regulations, whose provisions are primarily designed to protect the interests of a temporarily ousted sovereign in the context of a short-term occupation. Second is the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention, the first international agreement designed specifically to protect civilians during wartime.

While Israel was not and is not a party to the Hague Regulations, the Israeli Supreme Court has generally regarded its provisions as part of customary international law (that is, law generally observed by nations even if they have not signed an international agreement to that effect) and hence applicable to Israel. The regulations are transparently geared toward short-term occupations during which a peace treaty is negotiated between the victorious and defeated nations. The “no’s” of Khartoum signaled that there would be no quick negotiations.

Nonetheless, Israel established and maintains a military administration overseeing the West Bank in accordance with the Hague Regulations, probably the only military power since World War II other than the United States (in Iraq) that has done so. For example, consistent with Article 43 of the Regulations, which calls on the occupant to “respect … unless absolutely prevented, the laws in force in the country,” Israel has for the most part continued to follow Jordanian law in the West Bank, despite its position that Jordan itself had illegally occupied it.

Article 46 of the Hague Regulations bars an occupying power from confiscating private property. And it is on this point that the loudest cries against the settlements have been based. Israel did requisition land from private Arab owners to establish some early settlements, but requisitioning differs from confiscation (compensation is paid for use of the land), and the establishment of these settlements was based on military necessity. In a 1979 case, Ayyub v. Minister of Defence, the Israeli Supreme Court considered whether military authorities could requisition private property for a civilian settlement, Beth El, on proof of military necessity. The theoretical and, in that specific case, actual answers were affirmative. But in another seminal decision the same year, Dwaikat v. Israel, known as the Elon Moreh case, the court more deeply explored the definition of military necessity and rejected the tendered evidence in that case because the military had only later acquiesced in the establishment of the Elon Moreh settlement by its inhabitants. The court’s decision effectively precluded further requisitioning of Palestinian privately held land for civilian settlements.

After the Elon Moreh case, all Israeli settlements legally authorized by the Israeli Military Administration (a category that, by definition, excludes “illegal outposts” constructed without prior authorization or subsequent acceptance) have been constructed either on lands that Israel characterizes as state-owned or “public” or, in a small minority of cases, on land purchased by Jews from Arabs after 1967.

Israel’s characterization of certain lands as “state” or “public” has provoked considerable controversy. In one of the most detailed and cited critiques, B’Tselem, an Israeli human-rights group, concedes that 90% of the settlements have been established on what is nominally “state” land but argues that approximately 40% of the West Bank now falls within that category. That would represent a vast expansion of the 16% of the West Bank that had been considered public under Jordanian control.

As B’Tselem acknowledges, however, the vast majority of this land is in the Jordan Valley, which, with the primary exception of the city of Jericho, was barely populated by Palestinian Arabs prior to 1967 (which explains why such land was both unregistered and uncultivated). The percentage may also be on the high side because of the inclusion of certain Jerusalem neighborhoods in B’Tselem’s calculations. Regardless of the gross percentage, according to B’Tselem’s own statistics, only approximately 5% of the West Bank is within settlement “municipal boundaries,” and a much, much smaller percentage of land, 1.7%, is developed.

One of B’Tselem’s most frequently cited publications argues that Ma’aleh Adumim, the largest Israeli settlement on the West Bank, several kilometres to the east of Jerusalem, sits on territory taken from five Palestinian Arab villages and therefore amounts to an expropriation. But because the villagers lack registered title or even unregistered deeds, B’Tselem argues that the nomadic Jahalin Bedouin, who intermittently camp and graze their livestock on land to the east of Jerusalem going down to the Dead Sea, have effectively earned the right of title to the land because of their prescriptive use.

Perhaps. But it is far from clear how a Bedouin right to the land has anything to do with the legal claim of Palestinian villagers 60 years earlier. B’Tselem offers this rather astonishing argument: “They grazed on village land in accordance with lease agreements (at times symbolic) with the landowners — including landowners from the villages of Abu Dis and al’Izariyyeh.”

In other words, only Palestinian Arab villages may be constructed and expanded on the land because Bedouin have occasionally grazed their flocks thereon pursuant to the implied consent of Palestinian villagers. But those villagers only have a right to the land because of its use by the Bedouin!

The sophistry here masks a deeper issue. Aside from its circularity, B’Tselem’s argument equates whatever rights Bedouin may have with the rights of sedentary Arab villages on the outskirts of Jerusalem. The only reason for such an equation is that both are Arabs and not Jews. B’Tselem’s assertion that the land belongs to these villages collapses into the contention that only Arabs, not Jews, have the right to own and use these lands.

Settlement opponents more frequently cite the Fourth Geneva Convention these days for their legal arguments. They specifically charge that the settlements violate Article 49(6), which states: “The occupying power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into territories it occupies.”

Frequently, this sentence is cited as if its meaning is transparent and its application to the establishment of Israeli settlements beyond dispute. Neither is the case.

To settlement opponents, the word “transfer” in Article 49(6) connotes that any transfer of the occupying power’s civilian population, voluntary or involuntary, is prohibited. However, the first paragraph of Article 49 complicates that case. It reads: “Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.” Unquestionably, any forcible transfer of populations is illegal. But what about voluntary movements with the antecedent permission or subsequent acquiescence by the occupant?

Even settlement opponents concede that many settlements closest to Palestinian population areas, on the central mountain range of the West Bank, were built without government permission and often contrary to governmental policy; their continued existence forced the government to recognize the settlement as an existing fact. Given this history, it is questionable to claim that Israel “transferred” those settlers.

The response of settlement critics is that certain tax subsidies and other benefits conferred by the Israeli government or the World Zionist Organization that may have encouraged Jews to settle in the West Bank constructively amounts to a “transfer.” This interpretation would have greater traction under a l977 protocol to the Geneva Convention or under the Treaty of Rome, which established the International Criminal Court, but Israel is a signatory to neither (both covenants were heavily influenced by anti-Israel nongovernmental organizations and the PLO).

To the extent that a violation of Article 49(6) depends upon the distinction between the voluntary and involuntary movement of people, the inclusion of “forcible” in Article 49(1) but not in 49(6) makes a different interpretation not only plausible but more credible. It’s a matter of simple grammar that when similar language is used in several different paragraphs of the same provision, modifying language is omitted in later paragraphs because the modifier is understood. To Julius Stone, an international-law scholar, “the word ‘transfer’ [in 49(6)] in itself implies that the movement is not voluntary on the part of the persons concerned, but a magisterial act of the state concerned.”


To understand the phraseology used in Article 49(1), “individual or mass forcible transfers,” as well as one plausible origin of Article 49(6), some background is necessary.

According to Stone, discussions at the 1949 Geneva Diplomatic Conference “were dominated … by a common horror of the evils caused by the recent world war and a determination to lessen the sufferings of war victims.” The various nations’ delegates considered a draft of the convention produced at a conference of the Red Cross Societies held in Stockholm during August 1948. Final Article 49 was the renumbered and revised successor to Article 45 of the Stockholm Draft.

At a legal subcommittee meeting at Stockholm seemingly attended by fewer than 10 active participants, a Danish Jew named Georg Cohn proposed the sentence, albeit with a wider scope, that became Article 49(6). Cohn’s initial sentence, in French, would have prohibited an occupying power from deporting or transferring a “part of its own inhabitants or the inhabitants of another territory which it occupies” into the occupied territory.

According to Cohn’s own report to the Danish foreign ministry, his language was directed at an event the aspects of which were little known outside Scandinavia. In the waning days of the Second World War, as the Russian military advanced westward through the Baltic states and the Germans retreated, the Germans rightly feared that the Russians would take retribution on all German citizens and ethnic Germans who had collaborated with the Nazis. The Germans evacuated more than two million people into boats, hoping to land them in northern Germany.

Many of the ports had been bombed, however, and the Germans began unloading the people wherever they could, including several hundred thousand people into Copenhagen. In the spring of 1945, German children comprised a majority of the pupils in Copenhagen’s schools. The Danes despised them and placed them in concentration camps after the war, waiting to deport them to Germany as fast as possible. That goal had still not been accomplished in August 1948, at the time of the Stockholm conference.

Cohn may also have been motivated to propose the language that later became Article 49(6) in light of his own strong Jewish identity. The original language on deportations presented to the Stockholm conference would not have prevented Germany from deporting its own Jews to slave and extermination camps in Poland and other occupied countries, nor would it have prevented the Germans from sending Danish Jews found in Germany to concentration camps in occupied territories, sending either Hungarian or Italian Jews to Auschwitz, and/or from transplanting Germans to portions of Poland and other occupied countries. Cohn’s original language would have criminalized all these practices.

Other participants in Stockholm, led by Albert J. Clattenburg Jr. of the United States, thought Cohn’s provision too broad. The phrase “or the inhabitants of another territory which it occupies” was deleted, and “civil” was inserted before “inhabitants.”

At the Geneva Conference itself, both the final report of the committee charged with drafting the text of the Fourth Convention for consideration by the delegates as well as comments by delegates generally differentiated between transfers that were voluntary and therefore permitted and those that were involuntary and therefore prohibited. As the final report to the delegates stated while explaining the differences between various articles dealing with the right of an occupying power to evacuate an area, primarily in the interest of the security of the civilian population’s security: “Although there was general unanimity in condemning such deportations as took place during the recent war, the phrase at the beginning of Article 45 caused some trouble … In the end, the Committee had decided on a wording that prohibits individual or mass forcible removals as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to any other country, but which permits voluntary transfers.”

That is a key reason why Julius Stone termed the anti-settlement interpretation “an irony bordering on the absurd” and commented: “Ignoring the overall purpose of Article 49, which would inter alia protect the population of the State of Israel from being removed against their will into the occupied territory, it is now sought to be interpreted so as to impose on the Israel government a duty to prevent any Jewish individual from voluntarily taking up residence in that area.”

There is simply no comparison between the establishment and population of Israeli settlements and the Nazi atrocities that led to the Geneva Convention. The settlements are also a far cry from policies implemented by the Soviet Union in the late 1940s and early 1950s to alter the ethnic makeup of the Baltic states by initially deporting hundreds of thousands of people and encouraging Russian immigration.

Nor can they be compared to the efforts by China to alter the ethnic makeup of Tibet by forcibly scattering its native population and moving Chinese into Tibetan territory. Israel’s settlement policies are also not comparable to the campaign by Morocco to alter the ethnic makeup of the Western Sahara by transferring Moroccan Arabs to displace the native Saharans, who now huddle in refugee camps in Algeria, or to the variety of population displacements that occurred in the various parts of the former Yugoslavia.

All these would seem to fit the offence described in Article 49(6) precisely. Yet finding references to the application of Article 49(6) to nations other than Israel is like looking for a needle in a haystack. What distinguishes a system of “law” from arbitrary systems of control is that similar situations are handled alike. A system where legal principles are applied only when it suits the political tastes of anti-Israel elites is one that has lost all credibility. The loose use of international law, disproportionately applied to Israel, undermines the notion that this is “law” entitled to authoritative weight in the first place.

Julius Stone referred to the absurdity of considering the establishment of Israeli settlements as violating Article 49(6): “We would have to say that the effect of Article 49(6) is to impose an obligation on the State of Israel to ensure (by force if necessary) that these areas, despite their millennial association with Jewish life, shall be forever judenrein. Irony would thus be pushed to the absurdity of claiming that Article 49(6), designed to prevent repetition of Nazi-type genocidal policies of rendering Nazi metropolitan territories judenrein, has now come to mean that … the West Bank … must be made judenrein and must be so maintained, if necessary by the use of force by the government of Israel against its own inhabitants. Common sense as well as correct historical and functional context exclude so tyrannical a reading of Article 49(6).

Concluding that Israeli settlements violate Article 49(6) also overlooks the Jewish communities that existed before the creation of the state in areas occupied by today’s Israeli settlements, for example, in Hebron and the Etzion bloc outside Jerusalem. These Jewish communities were destroyed by Arab armies, militias, and rioters, and, as in the case of Hebron, the community’s population was slaughtered. Is it sensible to interpret Article 49 to bar the reconstitution of Jewish communities that were destroyed through aggression and slaughter? If so, the international law of occupation runs the risk of freezing one occupier’s conduct in place, no matter how unlawful.

The idea that the creation of new settlements or that the expansion of ones already in place is an act of bad faith on the part of various Israeli governments may seem without question to those who believe those settlements constitute an obstacle to the ever elusive solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict. Whether this argument is well-founded or not, the willingness of Israel’s critics to assert that these communities are not merely wrong-headed but a violation of international law escalates the debate over their existence from a dispute about policy into one in which the Jewish state itself can be labeled as an international outlaw. The ultimate end of the illicit effort to use international law to delegitimize the settlements is clear — it is the same argument used by Israel’s enemies to delegitimize the Jewish state entirely.


David M. Phillips is a professor at Northeastern University School of Law. A longer version of this article originally appeared in the December, 2009 issue of Commentary Magazine.
 

damngrumpy

Executive Branch Member
Mar 16, 2005
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Legal or not, lets face the fact there will never be peace with Israel and it neighbours.
For that matter, it is unlikely there will be peace with anyone and the Arab world very
soon. The rest of the globe is on a collision course with Islam, and this will become a
long and serious war with allies together the world never thought possible.
I hope Israel never gives up so much as an inch of territory to any of them. The only
way to negotiate with the Arab world, is with rifle smoke, its all they seem to understand.
 

Colpy

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Nov 5, 2005
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Interesting piece Goober! But I should point out that there are NO Israeli settlements in Gaza.......Israel forcibly removed settlers when they abandoned the territory years ago.....a damned lot of good it did them!!!
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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This issue has been debated by the UN Security Council at least 5 times and all five times, Israeli settlements have been determinied to be illegal:

United Nations Security Council Resolution 446 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

United Nations Security Council Resolution 452 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

United Nations Security Council Resolution 465 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

United Nations Security Council Resolution 471 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

United Nations Security Council Resolution 476 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The International Court of Justice when looking at the legality of the Israel's wall complex also determined that Israeli settlements built on land acquired by force and annexed from its legal owners is also illegal.

International Court of Justice

Therefore the illegality of Israel's ethnic cleansing under international law is well established. The principle is one understood by most children. Taking by force that which belongs to someone else is wrong.

Recently:

International community must act against Israeli settlements – UN committee

An Israeli settlement in West Bank

15 December 2009A United Nations committee on Palestinian rights today called on the international community “to take urgent and decisive action against the continued illegal Israeli actions,” warning that Israel’s settlement activities in the occupied Palestinian territory risk undermining the whole structure of international law.

“Israel’s violation of international law goes far beyond the context of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and may affect conflict situations in other parts of the world by discrediting, disregarding and seriously undermining the existing international legal system,” the UN Bureau of the Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights of the Palestinian People said in a statement...

...Israel is fully bound by the provisions of international humanitarian law, including the Fourth Geneva Convention, which stipulates that “the Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.”...

...“Settlers have been involved in shooting at Palestinian civilians, damaging their property, vandalizing places of worship, uprooting trees, burning farmland and destroying harvests,” it said. “They intimidate, harass and physically assault Palestinian men, women and children.

“Last week’s burning of a mosque in the village of Yasuf, north-east of Salfit, is just another vivid example of settler crimes. The lack of adequate Israeli law enforcement, bordering on permissiveness, when it comes to settler violence, is fuelling tensions and could lead to another escalation of the conflict.”....

International community must act against Israeli settlements – UN committee

So this isn't a theoretical discussion, but an issue which profoundly impacts the lives of the people living in the region and the basis for hostilities against Israel.

For a humanistic perspective, I reference Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Archbishop Desmond Tutu:

Apartheid in the Holy Land
Desmond Tutu

The Guardian, Monday 29 April 2002

In our struggle against apartheid, the great supporters were Jewish people. They almost instinctively had to be on the side of the disenfranchised, of the voiceless ones, fighting injustice, oppression and evil. I have continued to feel strongly with the Jews. I am patron of a Holocaust centre in South Africa. I believe Israel has a right to secure borders.

What is not so understandable, not justified, is what it did to another people to guarantee its existence. I've been very deeply distressed in my visit to the Holy Land; it reminded me so much of what happened to us black people in South Africa. I have seen the humiliation of the Palestinians at checkpoints and roadblocks, suffering like us when young white police officers prevented us from moving about.

On one of my visits to the Holy Land I drove to a church with the Anglican bishop in Jerusalem. I could hear tears in his voice as he pointed to Jewish settlements. I thought of the desire of Israelis for security. But what of the Palestinians who have lost their land and homes?

I have experienced Palestinians pointing to what were their homes, now occupied by Jewish Israelis. I was walking with Canon Naim Ateek (the head of the Sabeel Ecumenical Centre) in Jerusalem. He pointed and said: "Our home was over there. We were driven out of our home; it is now occupied by Israeli Jews."

My heart aches. I say why are our memories so short. Have our Jewish sisters and brothers forgotten their humiliation? Have they forgotten the collective punishment, the home demolitions, in their own history so soon? Have they turned their backs on their profound and noble religious traditions? Have they forgotten that God cares deeply about the downtrodden?

Israel will never get true security and safety through oppressing another people. A true peace can ultimately be built only on justice. We condemn the violence of suicide bombers, and we condemn the corruption of young minds taught hatred; but we also condemn the violence of military incursions in the occupied lands, and the inhumanity that won't let ambulances reach the injured.

The military action of recent days, I predict with certainty, will not provide the security and peace Israelis want; it will only intensify the hatred.

Israel has three options: revert to the previous stalemated situation; exterminate all Palestinians; or - I hope - to strive for peace based on justice, based on withdrawal from all the occupied territories, and the establishment of a viable Palestinian state on those territories side by side with Israel, both with secure borders.

We in South Africa had a relatively peaceful transition. If our madness could end as it did, it must be possible to do the same everywhere else in the world. If peace could come to South Africa, surely it can come to the Holy Land?

My brother Naim Ateek has said what we used to say: "I am not pro- this people or that. I am pro-justice, pro-freedom. I am anti- injustice, anti-oppression."

But you know as well as I do that, somehow, the Israeli government is placed on a pedestal [in the US], and to criticise it is to be immediately dubbed anti-semitic, as if the Palestinians were not semitic. I am not even anti-white, despite the madness of that group. And how did it come about that Israel was collaborating with the apartheid government on security measures?

People are scared in this country [the US], to say wrong is wrong because the Jewish lobby is powerful - very powerful. Well, so what? For goodness sake, this is God's world! We live in a moral universe. The apartheid government was very powerful, but today it no longer exists. Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Pinochet, Milosevic, and Idi Amin were all powerful, but in the end they bit the dust.

Injustice and oppression will never prevail. Those who are powerful have to remember the litmus test that God gives to the powerful: what is your treatment of the poor, the hungry, the voiceless? And on the basis of that, God passes judgment.

We should put out a clarion call to the government of the people of Israel, to the Palestinian people and say: peace is possible, peace based on justice is possible. We will do all we can to assist you to achieve this peace, because it is God's dream, and you will be able to live amicably together as sisters and brothers.

Desmond Tutu is the former Archbishop of Cape Town and chairman of South Africa's truth and reconciliation commission. This address was given at a conference on Ending the Occupation held in Boston, Massachusetts, earlier this month. A longer version appears in the current edition of Church Times.

Apartheid in the Holy Land | World news | The Guardian

All human beings have a right to justice and freedom. Millions of people living under Israeli occupation have neither. Only someone without compassion or a conscience could support Israeli injustice and oppression.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
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Ontario
This issue has been debated by the UN Security Council at least 5 times and all five times, Israeli settlements have been determinied to be illegal:

United Nations Security Council Resolution 446 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

United Nations Security Council Resolution 452 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

United Nations Security Council Resolution 465 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

United Nations Security Council Resolution 471 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

United Nations Security Council Resolution 476 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The International Court of Justice when looking at the legality of the Israel's wall complex also determined that Israeli settlements built on land acquired by force and annexed from its legal owners is also illegal.

International Court of Justice

Therefore the illegality of Israel's ethnic cleansing under international law is well established. The principle is one understood by most children. Taking by force that which belongs to someone else is wrong.

Recently:



So this isn't a theoretical discussion, but an issue which profoundly impacts the lives of the people living in the region and the basis for hostilities against Israel.

For a humanistic perspective, I reference Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Archbishop Desmond Tutu:



All human beings have a right to justice and freedom. Millions of people living under Israeli occupation have neither. Only someone without compassion or a conscience could support Israeli injustice and oppression.
There are no legal standings to support your claims of injustice, oppression or lack of freedom.

The International court has not made a ruling in the case of the Israeli wall, claims of oppression, occupation, or breach of international convention, it has however issued an "Advisory opinion". Whereas the issues have being merely reviewed and put to vote. Without the benefit of trial.

There has been no legal procession, as to the legality of the Israeli wall, their occupation of land taken during a war they did not start, nor any of your other claims.

Hence the very wording from your own links...

THE HAGUE, 9 July 2004. The International Court of Justice (ICJ), principal judicial organ of the United Nations, has today rendered its Advisory Opinion in the case concerning the Legal Consequences of the Construction of a Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (request for advisory opinion).
"Advisory Opinion" which is stressed repeatedly for good reason. It is not a legally binding ruling. It is an opinion, with no legal standing, that has not been tried, where the defendant can face his accuser, where all evidence is weighed in context and a fair and impartial trial has been convened.

The Court concludes by stating that the construction of the wall must be placed in a more general context. In this regard, the Court notes that Israel and Palestine are “under an obligation scrupulously to observe the rules of international humanitarian law”. In the Court’s view, the tragic situation in the region can be brought to an end only through implementation in good faith of all relevant Security Council resolutions. The Court further draws the attention of the General Assembly to the “need for . . . efforts to be encouraged with a view to achieving as soon as possible, on the basis of international law, a negotiated solution to the outstanding problems and the establishment of a Palestinian State, existing side by side with Israel and its other neighbours, with peace and security for all in the region”.
A negotiated solution? Well hell ya, but every time a solution is negotiated, Palestinians break it.


I have no doubt that any reasoned debate on this subject is futile, if at all possible. Given the fact that people believe and use, quasi legal "Advisory Opinion", as if it were a legal ruling. It is plainly obvious, that they haven't the scope of knowledge to accurately and knowledgeably discuss the issue.

Theirs is an emotional platform, built upon misinterpreted law, legal finding and convention.

How is a broad based discussion possible, under these conditions?
 
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lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
32,493
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63
In the bush near Sudbury
I wouldn't be so cock sure of who breaks what agreements in the Muddled East. One is as bad about poking the hornets' nets then blaming the hornet as the other. Weapons one degree west of straight up (five if it's breezy) and fire 'em all at once.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
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63
Ontario
I wouldn't be so cock sure of who breaks what agreements in the Muddled East. One is as bad about poking the hornets' nets then blaming the hornet as the other. Weapons one degree west of straight up (five if it's breezy) and fire 'em all at once.
:lol:
 

Colpy

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Nov 5, 2005
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This issue has been debated by the UN Security Council at least 5 times and all five times, Israeli settlements have been determinied to be illegal:

United Nations Security Council Resolution 446 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

United Nations Security Council Resolution 452 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

United Nations Security Council Resolution 465 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

United Nations Security Council Resolution 471 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

United Nations Security Council Resolution 476 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The International Court of Justice when looking at the legality of the Israel's wall complex also determined that Israeli settlements built on land acquired by force and annexed from its legal owners is also illegal.

International Court of Justice

Therefore the illegality of Israel's ethnic cleansing under international law is well established. The principle is one understood by most children. Taking by force that which belongs to someone else is wrong.

Recently:



So this isn't a theoretical discussion, but an issue which profoundly impacts the lives of the people living in the region and the basis for hostilities against Israel.

For a humanistic perspective, I reference Nobel Peace Prize Laureate Archbishop Desmond Tutu:



All human beings have a right to justice and freedom. Millions of people living under Israeli occupation have neither. Only someone without compassion or a conscience could support Israeli injustice and oppression.

All very lovely....except nobody sensible gives a crap what the UN thinks......

Just ask the residents of Srebrenica

Or go look at the Durban Conference against racism.......yep, the Jews should REALLY pay attention to the UN:roll:
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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What's going on in Gaza and the West Bank for over 40 years now are clear enough examples of man's inhumanity toward man.

Recently Anna Baltzer, a young Jewish American, went to the West Bank to discover the realities of daily life for Palestinians under the occupation. What she found changed her outlook on this conflict. For five months, Baltzer lived and worked with farmers, Palestinian and Israeli activists, and the families of political prisoners, traveling with them across endless checkpoints and roadblocks to reach hospitals, universities, and olive groves. Here is what she witnessed:

YouTube - Israel's "Colonies" - Anna Baltzer

Because Israel's leaders are above international law, they can treat these people as cruelly as they wish. Most Canadians are ignorant of the suffering of millions of people under Israeli occupation. Our news barely covers it. Our leaders have expressed unshakable support for Israel, despite clear evidence of Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity.
United Nations Fact Finding Mission on the Gaza conflict

I doubt debate or negotiation will end Israeli atrocities. The current situation is analagous to discussing how to divide a pizza while one person eats it.

Israel's Apartheid policies can only be defeated by resistance. I am against violence, but I fully support this campaign:



Boycott Israel News

Boycott Israel
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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I doubt debate or negotiation will end Israeli atrocities. The current situation is analagous to discussing how to divide a pizza while one person eats it.

Israel's Apartheid policies can only be defeated by resistance. I am against violence, but I fully support this campaign:[/quote]

EAO

So everything is Israel's fault again - Those dammed Jews eh - If you were evenhanded you would boycott the countries that support terrorist like Hamas and Hezbollah - Iran - for starters

So start with gas and any other products refined from Oil - Never know where the gas comes from now do you

Egypt does not want Gaza - Jordan does not want the West Bank - No Arab country wants Palestinians - Why is that? Perhaps because they attempted to Overthrow the King of Jordan - Perhaps because they want the West to jump thru hoops -

As to Israel above International law - What about Iran, Saudi Arabia - Egypt - Hezbollah and HamasAnd funny but sad how you overlook the Jewish Communities that were in so called Gaza for hundreds if not a couple of thousand years before the Partition -

Guess they have to be moved - as they are Jews that is not Judenrein - or Ethnic Cleansing -
But move one Palestinian and it jumps right up to Ethnic Cleansing -

As to Apartheid - Pehaps the treatment of other religions by Arabs and Persian should also qualify -

Whoops my mistake - They are not Jews and the are really nice people.

Yep Real Nice at Killing, Murder, Rape, Torture. People you would take home to see Momma for dinner. As to your Pizza analogy -

Let us be frank here - and drop a few letters off the end of Analogy and make the Pizza comparison Anal.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
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48
Recently a group of Palestinian Christians who also suffer Israeli oppression wrote a document condemning the atrocities they suffer under Israeli occupation:

Kairos Palestine
This document is the Christian Palestinians’ word to the world about what is happening
in Palestine. It is written at this time when we wanted to see the Glory of the grace of
God in this land and in the sufferings of its people. In this spirit the document requests
the international community to stand by the Palestinian people who have faced
oppression, displacement, suffering and clear apartheid for more than six decades....

...The
document also demands that all peoples, political leaders and decision-makers put
pressure on Israel and take legal measures in order to oblige its government to put an end
to its oppression and disregard for the international law. The document also holds a clear
position that non-violent resistance to this injustice is a right and duty for all Palestinians
including Christians...

...We believe that
3
liberation from occupation is in the interest of all peoples in the region because the
problem is not just a political one, but one in which human beings are destroyed...

...We, a group of Christian Palestinians, after prayer, reflection and an exchange of
opinion, cry out from within the suffering in our country, under the Israeli occupation,
with a cry of hope in the absence of all hope, a cry full of prayer and faith in a God ever
vigilant, in God’s divine providence for all the inhabitants of this land. Inspired by the
mystery of God's love for all, the mystery of God’s divine presence in the history of all
peoples and, in a particular way, in the history of our country, we proclaim our word
based on our Christian faith and our sense of Palestinian belonging – a word of faith, hope
and love....

...we have reached a dead end in the tragedy of the
Palestinian people. The decision-makers content themselves with managing the crisis
rather than committing themselves to the serious task of finding a way to resolve it...

...Resistance to the evil of occupation is integrated, then, within this Christian
love that refuses evil and corrects it. It resists evil in all its forms with methods that enter
into the logic of love and draw on all energies to make peace. We can resist through civil
disobedience. We do not resist with death but rather through respect of life. We respect
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and have a high esteem for all those who have given their life for our nation. And we
affirm that every citizen must be ready to defend his or her life, freedom and land.
4.2.6 Palestinian civil organizations, as well as international organizations, NGOs
and certain religious institutions call on individuals, companies and states to engage in
divestment and in an economic and commercial boycott of everything produced by the
occupation. We understand this to integrate the logic of peaceful resistance. These
advocacy campaigns must be carried out with courage, openly sincerely proclaiming that
their object is not revenge but rather to put an end to the existing evil, liberating both the
perpetrators and the victims of injustice. The aim is to free both peoples from extremist
positions of the different Israeli governments, bringing both to justice and reconciliation.
In this spirit and with this dedication we will eventually reach the longed-for resolution to
our problems, as indeed happened in South Africa and with many other liberation
movements in the world....

http://www.kairospalestine.ps/sites/default/Documents/English.pdf
 

Goober

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 23, 2009
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Recently a group of Palestinian Christians who also suffer Israeli oppression wrote a document condemning the atrocities they suffer under Israeli occupation:

Didn't they just lose millions of my tax dollars as they are somewhat Anti Semetic -
Did Munchie lend you this info???
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
7,933
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48
...So everything is Israel's fault again - Those dammed Jews eh - If you were evenhanded you would boycott the countries that support terrorist like Hamas and Hezbollah - Iran - for starters

So start with gas and any other products refined from Oil - Never know where the gas comes from now do you

Egypt does not want Gaza - Jordan does not want the West Bank - No Arab country wants Palestinians - Why is that? Perhaps because they attempted to Overthrow the King of Jordan - Perhaps because they want the West to jump thru hoops -

As to Israel above International law - What about Iran, Saudi Arabia - Egypt - Hezbollah and HamasAnd funny but sad how you overlook the Jewish Communities that were in so called Gaza for hundreds if not a couple of thousand years before the Partition -

Guess they have to be moved - as they are Jews that is not Judenrein - or Ethnic Cleansing -
But move one Palestinian and it jumps right up to Ethnic Cleansing -

As to Apartheid - Pehaps the treatment of other religions by Arabs and Persian should also qualify -

Whoops my mistake - They are not Jews and the are really nice people.

Yep Real Nice at Killing, Murder, Rape, Torture. People you would take home to see Momma for dinner. As to your Pizza analogy -

Let us be frank here - and drop a few letters off the end of Analogy and make the Pizza comparison Anal.


I am not against Jews or any other faith or religion. I support freedom of religion including Judaism.

Anna Baltzer, the lady I referenced above, is Jewish. She's against oppression and injustice just like I am. We are against people who commit crimes against humanity and war crimes. Some of these criminals may claim to be Jewish, but their actions and words violate what it means to be Jewish. Here is a link to a website which discusses this viewpoint in detail:

Israel Versus Judaism

Zionism is the antithesis of Judaism.
 

Goober

Hall of Fame Member
Jan 23, 2009
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I am not against Jews or any other faith or religion. I support freedom of religion including Judaism.

Anna Baltzer, the lady I referenced above, is Jewish. She's against oppression and injustice just like I am. We are against people who commit crimes against humanity and war crimes. Some of these criminals may claim to be Jewish, but their actions and words violate what it means to be Jewish. Here is a link to a website which discusses this viewpoint in detail:

Israel Versus Judaism

Zionism is the antithesis of Judaism.

EAO -

I could not care if she was from Mars - Are you aware that the land for peace between Israel and the Palestinians is with a few percentage points of agreement
1 sticking point is Jerusalem
the other is the so called right of return -
Israel will not become a minority within their own country -
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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You were the one insinuating that to be against Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity was somehow related to Judaism, not me. I couldn't care if these criminals were from Mars either. They should be locked up, not leading countries. If any of these criminals come to Canada, we should arrest them.

Israel has been in the driver's seat for at least 40 years as far as peace negotiations are concerned. They hold the military power, they are backed by a military superpower which regularly vetoes attempts to bring these criminals to justice or punish Israel for their criminal activity. Palestinians are powerless in comparison. We can all see where 40 years of negotiation with Israel has led. Each year Israel gets a little bigger at the expense land reserved for a theoretical Palestinian state which will never happen. The future of the West Bank is Gaza today. Most of the West Bank is already divided up into a series of Gaza Bank like concentration camps, surrounded walls, barbed wire, guard towers.... Israel controls most of the arable land and water. Little of value is remains for a viable Palestinian state. When the Bantusization of the West Bank is complete, the Israel government will implement the next phase in pursuit of a pure Jewish State: Transfer

Poll: Transfer Tops Solutions to Arab-Israeli Problem - News Briefs - Israel National News
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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You were the one insinuating that to be against Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity was somehow related to Judaism, not me. I couldn't care if these criminals were from Mars either. They should be locked up, not leading countries. If any of these criminals come to Canada, we should arrest them.

Israel has been in the driver's seat for at least 40 years as far as peace negotiations are concerned. They hold the military power, they are backed by a military superpower which regularly vetoes attempts to bring these criminals to justice or punish Israel for their criminal activity. Palestinians are powerless in comparison. We can all see where 40 years of negotiation with Israel has led. Each year Israel gets a little bigger at the expense land reserved for a theoretical Palestinian state which will never happen. The future of the West Bank is Gaza today. Most of the West Bank is already divided up into a series of Gaza Bank like concentration camps, surrounded walls, barbed wire, guard towers.... Israel controls most of the arable land and water. Little of value is remains for a viable Palestinian state. When the Bantusization of the West Bank is complete, the Israel government will implement the next phase in pursuit of a pure Jewish State: Transfer

Poll: Transfer Tops Solutions to Arab-Israeli Problem - News Briefs - Israel National News


EAO
And where did I insinuate " that to be against Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity was somehow related to Judaism, not me".


I also have another question - Just because the lady you quoted is Jewish - What difference does that make -??????
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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...Israel will not become a minority within their own country -

If the Israeli government allowed all the people they ethnically cleansed and their descendents to return home (justice) and then granted them Israeli citizenship (freedom), the majority of people living in Israel would still be Israelis, they just wouldn't be Jewish, which you equate as the equivalent of being Israeli..

Your comment reveals your bias against Arabs and Arab Israelis. You believe these people aren't equal to Jewish Israelis or deserving of the same rights as Jewish Israelis. You are the one full of hate and prejudice, not me.

I don't discriminate based on race or religion like you. I see all people as equal.
 

Goober

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Jan 23, 2009
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If the Israeli government allowed all the people they ethnically cleansed and their descendents to return home (justice) and then granted them Israeli citizenship (freedom), the majority of people living in Israel would still be Israelis, they just wouldn't be Jewish, which you equate as the equivalent of being Israeli..

Your comment reveals your bias against Arabs and Arab Israelis. You believe these people aren't equal to Jewish Israelis or deserving of the same rights as Jewish Israelis. You are the one full of hate and prejudice, not me.

I don't discriminate based on race or religion like you. I see all people as equal.
EAODo you think that Israel would agree to the return of millions of displaced Arabs - Many who fled upon direction from the Arab Armies in 48 - Then you are smoking something and forgetting to share.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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EAO
And where did I insinuate " that to be against Israeli war crimes and crimes against humanity was somehow related to Judaism, not me".


I also have another question - Just because the lady you quoted is Jewish - What difference does that make -??????

Goober: "Those dammed Jews eh"

I never mentioned Jews. I was referencing people who commit war crimes and crimes against humanity. Things which are not endorsed by Judaism... People who do these things may claim to be Jewish, but they are like people who claim to be Christian on Sunday, but rob and steal from Monday through Saturday. Their alleged religion is beside the point when it comes to their criminal activity.

Many of these criminals claim to be Jewish and they try to justify their criminal activities with selective references to Judaism, but that hardly makes them Jewish. If they were following Judaism to the letter, they would be peacefully co-existing with their neighbors, not be committing atrocities.

I'm not an expert in Judaism. But I know enough to say that Juadiam is a religion of peace and tolerance. One of the fundamental principles of Judaism is that Jews cannot use force to occupy their ancestral homeland or God will punish them. I doubt God would approve of the changes Zionist criminals have imposed by force on the region.