#1Apr 21st, 2006
Your thoughts?
Does Israel have a right to exist?
Your thoughts?
#2
RE: Does Israel have a right to exist?
Apr 21st, 2006
I think they have a legal right to the land...all the land that was given and all they land they took when they were attacked.
As far as the bible is concerned....we have to remember that most of the Israelites were take abroad....but they are still Israel.
As far as the bible is concerned....we have to remember that most of the Israelites were take abroad....but they are still Israel.
#3
RE: Does Israel have a right to exist?
Apr 21st, 2006
Open the gates, so the righteous nation, keeper of the faith, may enter!
Isiah 26:1
For thus said my Lord Hashem/Elohim, the Holy One of Israel: In stillness and peacefulness will you be saved, in quiet and in confidence will be tour might,' but you did not consent
Isaiah 30:15
בOn that day, you will not be ashamed of all your deeds by which you have wantonly sinned against Me. For then I will remove from your midst those who exult in your arrogance, and you will no longer continue to be haughty on My holy mountain. And I will leave in your midst a humble and destitute people, and they will take shelter in the Name of Hashem. The remnant of Israel will not commit corruption , they willnot speak falsehood, and a deceitful tongue will not be found in their mouth; for they will graze and lie down with none to make them afraid.
Zephaniah 3:11
הStrengthen weak hands and give support to failing knees Say to those of impatient heart, 'Be strong; do not fear. Behold, your God will come with revenge, with Divine retribution; He will come and save you. Then the eyes of the blind will be opened and the ears of the deaf will be unstopped.
Isaiah 35:3
For there is yet another vision about the appointed time; it will speak of the End and it will not deceive. Though it may tarry, await it, for it will surely come; it will not delay.
Habakkuk 3:3
Therefore, wait for Me - the word of Hashem - for the day when I will arise to plunder. For My judgment will be to assemble nations, to gather kingdoms, to pour My fury upon them, all My burning wrath; for with the fire of My jealousy the entire earth will be consumed. For then I will change the nations a pure language, so that they all will proclaim the Name of Hashem; to worship Him with a united resolve.
Zephaniah 3:8
etc. etc. etc. need I say more.
Isiah 26:1
For thus said my Lord Hashem/Elohim, the Holy One of Israel: In stillness and peacefulness will you be saved, in quiet and in confidence will be tour might,' but you did not consent
Isaiah 30:15
בOn that day, you will not be ashamed of all your deeds by which you have wantonly sinned against Me. For then I will remove from your midst those who exult in your arrogance, and you will no longer continue to be haughty on My holy mountain. And I will leave in your midst a humble and destitute people, and they will take shelter in the Name of Hashem. The remnant of Israel will not commit corruption , they willnot speak falsehood, and a deceitful tongue will not be found in their mouth; for they will graze and lie down with none to make them afraid.
Zephaniah 3:11
הStrengthen weak hands and give support to failing knees Say to those of impatient heart, 'Be strong; do not fear. Behold, your God will come with revenge, with Divine retribution; He will come and save you. Then the eyes of the blind will be opened and the ears of the deaf will be unstopped.
Isaiah 35:3
For there is yet another vision about the appointed time; it will speak of the End and it will not deceive. Though it may tarry, await it, for it will surely come; it will not delay.
Habakkuk 3:3
Therefore, wait for Me - the word of Hashem - for the day when I will arise to plunder. For My judgment will be to assemble nations, to gather kingdoms, to pour My fury upon them, all My burning wrath; for with the fire of My jealousy the entire earth will be consumed. For then I will change the nations a pure language, so that they all will proclaim the Name of Hashem; to worship Him with a united resolve.
Zephaniah 3:8
etc. etc. etc. need I say more.
#4
RE: Does Israel have a right to exist?
Apr 21st, 2006
The Jews have violated their covenant by returning to Israel prior to the return of the Messiah. Even ultra orthodox Jews will acknowledge this.
Liberal
#5
Re: Right to Exist
Apr 21st, 2006
Crusader, good afternoon. 
With due respect, of course, I don't think that it would be appropriate to ajudge the right of a nation to exist based on whatever representations may be made in the Holy Bible — notwithstanding whether or not the return of the LORD would be assessed as having occured or not. I would suggest that whatever may happen to be depicted in the Bible should not have any appreciable role for the State of Israel, in terms of its right to exist.
Yes, I do think that Israel should have the right to exist.
With due respect, of course, I don't think that it would be appropriate to ajudge the right of a nation to exist based on whatever representations may be made in the Holy Bible — notwithstanding whether or not the return of the LORD would be assessed as having occured or not. I would suggest that whatever may happen to be depicted in the Bible should not have any appreciable role for the State of Israel, in terms of its right to exist.
Yes, I do think that Israel should have the right to exist.
#6
Re: Right to Exist
Apr 21st, 2006
[quote="FiveParadox"[b]Crusader[/b], good afternoon.
With due respect, of course, I don't think that it would be appropriate to ajudge the right of a nation to exist based on whatever representations may be made in the Holy Bible — notwithstanding whether or not the return of the LORD would be assessed as having occured or not. I would suggest that whatever may happen to be depicted in the Bible should not have any appreciable role for the State of Israel, in terms of its right to exist.
Yes, I do think that Israel should have the right to exist.
Then we'll have to agree to disagree, friend. However, I will concede one point to the Zionists. According to the pre-1844 Millerite Movement, the rapture was supposed to have occurred in 1844. Needless to say, that interpretation had to change after that fateful day, and so the Adventist movement (which arose from the Millerite movement), concluded that the "sanctuary" referred to in the Bible did not refer to earth specifically but rather a spiritual one. Coincidently, the Ottoman Empire did grant Jews the right of return that same year. And seeing that prophecy clearly indicates that the Jews would return AFTER the return of the LORD, then perhaps there has been a misunderstanding of the definition of the return of the LORD, and that He did in fact, in some way not yet understood, return in some sense of the word in 1844. So I will concede that I could be wrong here.
With due respect, of course, I don't think that it would be appropriate to ajudge the right of a nation to exist based on whatever representations may be made in the Holy Bible — notwithstanding whether or not the return of the LORD would be assessed as having occured or not. I would suggest that whatever may happen to be depicted in the Bible should not have any appreciable role for the State of Israel, in terms of its right to exist.
Yes, I do think that Israel should have the right to exist.
Then we'll have to agree to disagree, friend. However, I will concede one point to the Zionists. According to the pre-1844 Millerite Movement, the rapture was supposed to have occurred in 1844. Needless to say, that interpretation had to change after that fateful day, and so the Adventist movement (which arose from the Millerite movement), concluded that the "sanctuary" referred to in the Bible did not refer to earth specifically but rather a spiritual one. Coincidently, the Ottoman Empire did grant Jews the right of return that same year. And seeing that prophecy clearly indicates that the Jews would return AFTER the return of the LORD, then perhaps there has been a misunderstanding of the definition of the return of the LORD, and that He did in fact, in some way not yet understood, return in some sense of the word in 1844. So I will concede that I could be wrong here.
#7
Re: Does Israel have a right to exist?
Apr 21st, 2006Quote: Originally Posted by Crusader
Considering that, according to the OT, the Jews would return to Israel only after the return of the LORD, do they really have the right to claim that territory prior to his return?
Your thoughts?
I think this is quite stupid thread, simple as that. religion and bible is a tool, to make you think in a different way, just like a modern phylosopher,not to use it by the book.
#8
Re: Does Israel have a right to exist?
Apr 21st, 2006Quote: Originally Posted by aeon
Well you were obviously interested; you did click on it, didn't you? Quote: Originally Posted by CrusaderConsidering that, according to the OT, the Jews would return to Israel only after the return of the LORD, do they really have the right to claim that territory prior to his return?
Your thoughts?
I think this is quite stupid thread, simple as that. religion and bible is a tool, to make you think in a different way, just like a modern phylosopher,not to use it by the book.
#9
RE: Does Israel have a right to exist?
Apr 21st, 2006
The strongest argument, in my view, that supports isreals right to exist--
is the viscious, perseqution of the jewish people, by mostly europeans---
obviously-- the nazis, but also others--
i try not to take sides in the isreali-palestinian conflict--- i see both sides as victims
isreal has a right to exist
but so does palestine
is the viscious, perseqution of the jewish people, by mostly europeans---
obviously-- the nazis, but also others--
i try not to take sides in the isreali-palestinian conflict--- i see both sides as victims
isreal has a right to exist
but so does palestine
#10
Re: RE: Does Israel have a right to exist?
Apr 21st, 2006Quote: Originally Posted by cortezzz
Wait a minute. If the argument for a Jewish state is that the Jews were persecuted by Germans, then would it not have been more logical to have given the Jews a part of German territory to build their state, rather than to involve the Palestinians who had nothing to do with it?The strongest argument, in my view, that supports isreals right to exist--
is the viscious, perseqution of the jewish people, by mostly europeans---
obviously-- the nazis, but also others--
i try not to take sides in the isreali-palestinian conflict--- i see both sides as victims
isreal has a right to exist
but so does palestine
#11
RE: Does Israel have a right to exist?
Apr 21st, 2006
Jews had lots of options...but their goal for the last 2000 years has been a state in palistine. Britian made it happen for them, so did the UN.
Republican
#12
RE: Does Israel have a ri
Apr 21st, 2006
Yes chocolate has a right to exist, but only if abides by UN resolutions.
#13
Re: RE: Does Israel have a right to exist?
Apr 21st, 2006Quote: Originally Posted by Crusader
agreedQuote: Originally Posted by cortezzzWait a minute. If the argument for a Jewish state is that the Jews were persecuted by Germans, then would it not have been more logical to have given the Jews a part of German territory to build their state, rather than to involve the Palestinians who had nothing to do with it?The strongest argument, in my view, that supports isreals right to exist--
is the viscious, perseqution of the jewish people, by mostly europeans---
obviously-- the nazis, but also others--
i try not to take sides in the isreali-palestinian conflict--- i see both sides as victims
isreal has a right to exist
but so does palestine
but that wasnt going to happen
in fact no one wanted those jewish refugees
the argument was
that history would repeat itself
ie jews persequted
flee to other host nation
which is initaily tolerant
but then--perhaps several generations later
becomes intolerant of them
then forced to flee again
etc
#14
Re: RE: Does Israel have a right to exist?
Apr 21st, 2006Quote: Originally Posted by Jay
britain made it happenJews had lots of options...but their goal for the last 2000 years has been a state in palistine. Britian made it happen for them, so did the UN.
partially because they didnt want all those jewish refugees coming to britain
#15
Re: Does Israel have a right to exist?
Apr 21st, 2006
Hmmmmmmmmm
I guess Jews aren't included in "hate speech" in Canada?
Or bigotry is ok when it concerns the hated Jews?
I guess Jews aren't included in "hate speech" in Canada?
Or bigotry is ok when it concerns the hated Jews?
#16
Re: Does Israel have a right to exist?
Apr 21st, 2006Quote: Originally Posted by Wednesday's Child
What?Hmmmmmmmmm
I guess Jews aren't included in "hate speech" in Canada?
Or bigotry is ok when it concerns the hated Jews?
#17
RE: Does Israel have a right to exist?
Apr 21st, 2006
i dont think my post could be interpreted as hate against jews
i was trying to convey the opposite
that they were the unfair victims of hate
i was trying to convey the opposite
that they were the unfair victims of hate
#18
Re: Does Israel have a right to exist?
Apr 21st, 2006Quote: Originally Posted by Wednesday's Child
could you explain this pleaseHmmmmmmmmm
I guess Jews aren't included in "hate speech" in Canada?
Or bigotry is ok when it concerns the hated Jews?
#19
Re: Does Israel have a right to exist?
Apr 21st, 2006
amazing how Europe now sticks up for the jewish people when we murdered them the whole time they were in Europe from the middle ages on. When you also take into consideration that most Jewish people in Isreal are Zionists as well, White Northern Europeans who claim to be Jewish, but look nothing like someone from the middle east. When you also consider they get all there support from people who look like them, North America and Europe, you kind to have to wonder if this isn't just some sort of new European imperialism on the region. Arab Jewish people lived in peace and harmoney in that area of Palistine before the creation of Isreal and the arrival of Northern European pasty white peoples who brought the violance to the region to set up a homeland in somebody elses homeland. Of course this is going to make conflic, xp when the leaders of this state arn't really the Jewish people of the middle east but those of Northern Europe and later Eastern Europe.
Does Isreal have the right to exist, yes and so does Palistine. Can they live together in peace.... No because they claime the same land and neither side are willing to give up much of it. While Isreal trys to make it look as if they are trying they are not. They give so little and use a heavy hand in dealings with the Palistinians as well as treating them as if they have no rights to the land as well. Of course Palistine is not a nation of angles and there support for terrorism has eruded their support from much of the west and the left across the world and really have shoot themselves in the foot countless of times.
As soon as both sides and even outsiders who are evolved in this conflic relieze the facts behind Isreal and Palistine, then perhaps we can move forward, but if we are going to blindly, or at least be colour blind in our dealings here and to the fact of history and the creation of Isreal and Palistine I do not think we stand much of a chance.
Does Isreal have the right to exist, yes and so does Palistine. Can they live together in peace.... No because they claime the same land and neither side are willing to give up much of it. While Isreal trys to make it look as if they are trying they are not. They give so little and use a heavy hand in dealings with the Palistinians as well as treating them as if they have no rights to the land as well. Of course Palistine is not a nation of angles and there support for terrorism has eruded their support from much of the west and the left across the world and really have shoot themselves in the foot countless of times.
As soon as both sides and even outsiders who are evolved in this conflic relieze the facts behind Isreal and Palistine, then perhaps we can move forward, but if we are going to blindly, or at least be colour blind in our dealings here and to the fact of history and the creation of Isreal and Palistine I do not think we stand much of a chance.
#21
Re: Does Israel have a right to exist?
Apr 21st, 2006
perhaps in a sence but they tend to see themselfs as Jewish people and I tend to go along with that, as long as they know they are a Zionist. *shrugs*
Hell you can call yourself anything and I wouldn't care but Isreal was more or less created by Northern Europeans and still by in large ran by Northern Europeans. (With some eceptiuon to Northern Europeans and the few Arab/middle eastern jewish people left and largely disenfranchised African Jewish peoples)
Hell you can call yourself anything and I wouldn't care but Isreal was more or less created by Northern Europeans and still by in large ran by Northern Europeans. (With some eceptiuon to Northern Europeans and the few Arab/middle eastern jewish people left and largely disenfranchised African Jewish peoples)
#22
Re: Does Israel have a right to exist?
Apr 21st, 2006
To all the "what's and why's" of my comment...
Got your attention did I?
Good.
You were speaking of the Jewish people as if they were chunks of meat.
These are people with rights and the desire to have a place on earth in which to live - whether assigned to them or not - and
the pontificating here as if they were some idiot tribe wandering the earth creating disease makes me wonder if you realize how close you are in disregarding them as humans.
Got your attention did I?
Good.
You were speaking of the Jewish people as if they were chunks of meat.
These are people with rights and the desire to have a place on earth in which to live - whether assigned to them or not - and
the pontificating here as if they were some idiot tribe wandering the earth creating disease makes me wonder if you realize how close you are in disregarding them as humans.
#23
RE: Does Israel have a right to exist?
Apr 21st, 2006
you must be joking
chunks of meat
because i empathize with their plight
talk about turning truth on its head!!!
chunks of meat
because i empathize with their plight
talk about turning truth on its head!!!
#24
Re: Does Israel have a right to exist?
Apr 21st, 2006Quote: Originally Posted by Wednesday's Child
To all the "what's and why's" of my comment...
Got your attention did I?
Good.
You were speaking of the Jewish people as if they were chunks of meat.
These are people with rights and the desire to have a place on earth in which to live - whether assigned to them or not - and
the pontificating here as if they were some idiot tribe wandering the earth creating disease makes me wonder if you realize how close you are in disregarding them as humans.
Wednesday's Child, with all due respect, so are the Palistinian peoples, and they live under much more harsh conditions then the Isrealies and are pretty much at the mercy of the Isrealies so well of course I'm going to highlight that the Zionists who control Isreal arn't even from the middle east (or are now only 2nd or 3rd gen). Of course they are there now and have rights to share the land but they do not see these rights they only see their soul rights to these lands. Of course so does the Palistinians unfortunitly.
Isrealies and Palistinians are both Human beings and if anything i said says antyhing else I would like to clear it up now that I believe both sides should consider human rights and persicute those who ignore them.
#25
Re: RE: Does Israel have a right to exist?
Apr 21st, 2006Quote: Originally Posted by cortezzz
I agree.The strongest argument, in my view, that supports isreals right to exist--
is the viscious, perseqution of the jewish people, by mostly europeans---
obviously-- the nazis, but also others--
i try not to take sides in the isreali-palestinian conflict--- i see both sides as victims
isreal has a right to exist
but so does palestine
#26
Re: Does Israel have a right to exist?
Apr 21st, 2006
Cortezzz
Stop taking things personally as if directed at you.
If you haven't said anything you feel you need to defend....don't look for things....I read no bigotry in your posts .... was there???
And as you and Toro both wrote....I also agree.....both the States of Israel and Palestine have every right to exist - in peace.
It does nothing to promote this peaceful coexistence if people are constantly erupting about how at fault either side is....in this topic it was apparently the Jews ... in others ...the Palestinians....
It does not solve the problem. But then perhaps nobody wants to.
Again I repeat - I often read about Canadian "hate laws" and then read posts such as this demeaning the people of Israel - whether they are right or wrong in their assumed land grabbing..... there are far worse human rights abuses going on in this world and we rarely see them discussed with such venom as is directed at Jews.
I repeat - is there bigotry against Jews here?
Stop taking things personally as if directed at you.
If you haven't said anything you feel you need to defend....don't look for things....I read no bigotry in your posts .... was there???
And as you and Toro both wrote....I also agree.....both the States of Israel and Palestine have every right to exist - in peace.
It does nothing to promote this peaceful coexistence if people are constantly erupting about how at fault either side is....in this topic it was apparently the Jews ... in others ...the Palestinians....
It does not solve the problem. But then perhaps nobody wants to.
Again I repeat - I often read about Canadian "hate laws" and then read posts such as this demeaning the people of Israel - whether they are right or wrong in their assumed land grabbing..... there are far worse human rights abuses going on in this world and we rarely see them discussed with such venom as is directed at Jews.
I repeat - is there bigotry against Jews here?
#27
Re: Does Israel have a right to exist?
Apr 21st, 2006
Wednesday's Child I feel the same way, I often feel that the slant always points to "It's Israel's fault". It's a two way street and both sides need to find a resolution, there is enough anger on both sides and it not helping the situation.
#28
Re: Does Israel have a right to exist?
Apr 21st, 2006
Israel has a right to exist and defend itself when attacked. The Palestinians have a right to their own state, but as long as Terrorist groups Hamas, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad launch attack against Israel from within Palestinian areas a Palestine State will never be.
Republican
#29
RE: Does Israel have a ri
Apr 21st, 2006
Isreal and the US have consistantly blocked and tharwted
negotiations to arrive at a diplomatic settlement, Isreal has ignored with impunity many UN resolutions, the relationship between the two peoples is one sided and rigged against the aspirations of the Palestinians, still the answer to the threads question is yes, Isreal has a right to exist but when will palistine have that same right, I side with the Palistinians they are the underdogs, I have little sympathy for Isrealies.If you want to **** on someone try the Godwhack that originated this thread.
negotiations to arrive at a diplomatic settlement, Isreal has ignored with impunity many UN resolutions, the relationship between the two peoples is one sided and rigged against the aspirations of the Palestinians, still the answer to the threads question is yes, Isreal has a right to exist but when will palistine have that same right, I side with the Palistinians they are the underdogs, I have little sympathy for Isrealies.If you want to **** on someone try the Godwhack that originated this thread.
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