The Man who said NO to Europe


Ocean Breeze
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#1
The Man Who Said No to Europe

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Quote:

DPA
Great Britain is more isolated than ever in the EU.
British Prime Minister David Cameron has completely isolated his country on the European stage -- and many in his country applaud him for it. But he will soon have to prove that London still has clout in the EU, and that his no to fiscal union wasn't just a bone thrown to euroskeptic conservatives.


....this is a political biggie . Game,set ,????

Hope this strategy works for the UK....with minimal consequences ( forseen and unforseen. ).

Quote:

"I said before I came to Brussels that if I couldn't get adequate safeguards for Britain in a new European treaty, then I wouldn't agree to it. What is on offer isn't in Britain's interests, so I didn't agree to it," he said. "We're not in the euro and I'm glad we're not in the euro."

Cameron: UK.

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Most helpful post: The members here have rated this post as best reply.
taxslave
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#2  Top Rated Post
Many so called experts predicted dire consequences when England backed out of the Euro. In hindsight which is often 20/20 it looks like it was a very smart move. England has more than enough of its own monetary problems without having to finance the economic basket cases of Europe.
 
Ocean Breeze
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#3
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

Many so called experts predicted dire consequences when England backed out of the Euro. In hindsight which is often 20/20 it looks like it was a very smart move. England has more than enough of its own monetary problems without having to finance the economic basket cases of Europe.

How "isolating" do you think this will be for the UK?? And how would this actually affect things over all??

thx.
 
taxslave
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#4
Quote: Originally Posted by Ocean BreezeView Post

How "isolating" do you think this will be for the UK?? And how would this actually affect things over all??

thx.

I doubt that it will make any real difference for GB. Business will carry on regardless of what the political class does or says. France and Germany will be choked since they will be footing the bills for the rest of the EU or else the whole thing will implode.
 
Cliffy
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#5
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

I doubt that it will make any real difference for GB. Business will carry on regardless of what the political class does or says. France and Germany will be choked since they will be footing the bills for the rest of the EU or else the whole thing will implode.

And the North American Union is still on track with the same inevitable implosion if they continue down that path.
 
damngrumpy
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#6
Britain is not getting involved because Europe has never really been stable anyway.
Cameron will be gone like a gust of wind in the next election anyway and even he
knows it. Liberal Democrats will go back under the rock they crawled out of and they
made a bad deal, to gain some measure of power. Labour will be back in a new role
with a new attitude. Cameron is no Thatcher and he can't hold onto the British people
in the way she could.
 
Spade
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#7
And, Britain pines for lost empire and because of diminished prestige. In part, why it joined Bush as a member of the Axis of the Eager.
Last edited by Spade; Dec 9th, 2011 at 10:57 PM..
 
Cliffy
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#8
Quote: Originally Posted by SpadeView Post

And, Britain pines for lost empire and because of diminished prestige. In part, why it joined Bush as a member of the Axis of the Eager.

Like an old washed up boxer who climbs back into the ring one last time to relive the glory, only to have his head pounded to a pulp. Britons are in for a rude awakening but their ruling class will make out like bandits as usual.
 
Blackleaf
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#9
It's now time for the Government to give the British people the referendum on Britain's membership of the EU and give us the chance to leave the monstrosity.

Britain should have no place in the EU and now needs to join the 87% of the world's countries who are outside it.

It may sound quaint to those swivel-eyed, mouth-foaming Europhiles, but I actually want Britain to be run by the British.
Last edited by Blackleaf; Dec 10th, 2011 at 07:41 AM..
 
Colpy
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#10
Quote: Originally Posted by BlackleafView Post

It's now time for the Government to give the British people the referendum on Britain's membership of the EU and give us the chance to leave the monstrosity.

Britain should have no place in the EU and now needs to join the 87% of the world's countries who are outside it.

It may sound quaint to those swivel-eyed, mouth-foaming Europhiles, but I actually want Britain to be run by the British.

Personally, I think what is needed is a close economic and military alliance of the English-speaking democracies.

A leader with vision would promote a new future, one which ties together nations that share language, a love for liberty, and a common political heritage.

Canada, the USA, Australia, New Zealand, Great Britain, and India should come together, leaving behind NATO and the diseased EU.

Not only would there be economic advantages to all involved, the alliance would also present a united front to the Chinese.


Very much to the good.
 
JLM
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#11
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

Personally, I think what is needed is a close economic and military alliance of the English-speaking democracies.

A leader with vision would promote a new future, one which ties together nations that share language, a love for liberty, and a common political heritage.

Canada, the USA, Australia, New Zealand, Great Britain, and India should come together, leaving behind NATO and the diseased EU.

Not only would there be economic advantages to all involved, the alliance would also present a united front to the Chinese.


Very much to the good.

Would India be necessary?
 
Machjo
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#12
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

Personally, I think what is needed is a close economic and military alliance of the English-speaking democracies.

A leader with vision would promote a new future, one which ties together nations that share language, a love for liberty, and a common political heritage.

Canada, the USA, Australia, New Zealand, Great Britain, and India should come together, leaving behind NATO and the diseased EU.

Not only would there be economic advantages to all involved, the alliance would also present a united front to the Chinese.


Very much to the good.

I'm more of a world federalist myself, but if it has to start off with an English-Speaking Union, I'd be all for it.

First off, one single military force shared by all of these countries would cut back on administrative duplication, triplication, nay, multiplication. Big savings there. Also, if we established a maximum of 100,000 well trained and equipped men, big savings there too. A common language would save on interpretation and language-training costs too (though we'd likely have to establish some kind of equivalent union with French-speaking countries or alternatively allow Quebec to separate on amicable terms while still possibly sharing a common citizenship and passport or interchangeable passports or something of the sort).

A common passport across an English-speaking union would expand our labour markets in a big way, also helping to keep emplayment rates up and correcting labour shortages too.

Those would be just some of the advantages of such a union.

Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

Would India be necessary?

India is not really an English-speaking country except officially. According to a study by Pattanayak in 1984, only about 4% of India's population is truly functional in English.

One problem I could see with an English-speaking Union is the issue of republic vs. monarchy, unless some kind of compromise could be established along the lines of some kind of elective constitutional monarchy.
 
Ocean Breeze
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#13
US Joint Chiefs of Staff general worried about Europe

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Blackleaf
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#14
Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

Personally, I think what is needed is a close economic and military alliance of the English-speaking democracies.

A leader with vision would promote a new future, one which ties together nations that share language, a love for liberty, and a common political heritage.

Canada, the USA, Australia, New Zealand, Great Britain, and India should come together, leaving behind NATO and the diseased EU.

Not only would there be economic advantages to all involved, the alliance would also present a united front to the Chinese.


Very much to the good.

Those countries, except the USA, already are together - we're together in the Commonwealth.

And I prefer the Commonwealth - a loose collection of sovereign states working together on various projects, such as the promotion of democracy and human rights, but which aren't giving up their sovereignties and have no aspirations of becoming a country - rather than the EU, an actual, proper political union of countries which are giving up their sovereignty, with its own currency, capital city, parliament and unelected president, which has aspirations of becoming a country.

Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

Would India be necessary?

I don't see why not.

India is a Commonwealth nation and is a big ally of Britain. It fought alongside Britain in both world wars and is, of course, the world's largest democracy.
 
Spade
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#15
Quote: Originally Posted by BlackleafView Post


India is a Commonwealth nation and is a big ally of Britain. It fought alongside Britain in both world wars and is, of course, the world's largest democracy.

"I have alluded somewhat vaguely to the merits of democracy. One of them is quite obvious: it is, perhaps, the most charming form of government ever devised by man. The reason is not far to seek. It is based upon propositions that are palpably not true and what is not true, as everyone knows, is always immensely more fascinating and satisfying to the vast majority of men than what is true. Truth has a harshness that alarms them, and an air of finality that collides with their incurable romanticism. They turn, in all the great emergencies of life, to the ancient promises, transparently false but immensely comforting, and of all those ancient promises there is none more comforting than the one to the effect that the lowly shall inherit the earth. It is at the bottom of the dominant religious system of the modern world, and it is at the bottom of the dominant political system. The latter, which is democracy, gives it an even higher credit and authority than the former, which is Christianity. More, democracy gives it a certain appearance of objective and demonstrable truth. The mob man, functioning as citizen, gets a feeling that he is really important to the world - that he is genuinely running things. Out of his maudlin herding after rogues and mountebanks there comes to him a sense of vast and mysterious power—which is what makes archbishops, police sergeants, the grand goblins of the Ku Klux and other such magnificoes happy. And out of it there comes, too, a conviction that he is somehow wise, that his views are taken seriously by his betters - which is what makes United States Senators, fortune tellers and Young Intellectuals happy. Finally, there comes out of it a glowing consciousness of a high duty triumphantly done which is what makes hangmen and husbands happy."
H. L. Mencken, 1926
 
darkbeaver
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#16
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

I doubt that it will make any real difference for GB. Business will carry on regardless of what the political class does or says. France and Germany will be choked since they will be footing the bills for the rest of the EU or else the whole thing will implode.

All the UK banks are flat as pancakes and they have enough gold left only for a good bye party, that's the whole thing, except for the cannon fodder which of course they now how to spend. The weather is killing them anyway.

Quote: Originally Posted by ColpyView Post

Personally, I think what is needed is a close economic and military alliance of the English-speaking democracies.

A leader with vision would promote a new future, one which ties together nations that share language, a love for liberty, and a common political heritage.

Canada, the USA, Australia, New Zealand, Great Britain, and India should come together, leaving behind NATO and the diseased EU.

Not only would there be economic advantages to all involved, the alliance would also present a united front to the Chinese.


Very much to the good.

Wait wait I think I know an economic answer, we could start WW 3, and lower the unemployment by twenty percent in one year. You would be affront enough for China all by yourself.
 
Machjo
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#17
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaverView Post

All the UK banks are flat as pancakes and they have enough gold left only for a good bye party, that's the whole thing, except for the cannon fodder which of course they now how to spend. The weather is killing them anyway.

Wait wait I think I know an economic answer, we could start WW 3, and lower the unemployment by twenty percent in one year. You would be affront enough for China all by yourself.

War may create jobs, but destroys wealth. Seeing that the purpose of work is to produce wealth, work that destroys wealth is pointless.
 
darkbeaver
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#18
Quote: Originally Posted by MachjoView Post

War may create jobs, but destroys wealth. Seeing that the purpose of work is to produce wealth, work that destroys wealth is pointless.

That's why we use someone elses wealth Machjo. Entrenched wealth does not use it's own unless it is an emergency. When were taxes invented? Still of course I know you are right because it is a bloody waste.
 
Blackleaf
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#19
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaverView Post

All the UK banks are flat as pancakes

Absolute tosh. British banks were rescued by two government rescue packages totalling £100 billion. These stabilised British banks.

Quote:

and they have enough gold left only for a good bye party

We would have had more gold in reserve had a certain Scotsman not sold 400 tons (60%) of it between 1999 and 2002 when gold was at its cheapest in 20 years.
 
Machjo
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#20
Quote: Originally Posted by BlackleafView Post

Absolute tosh. British banks were rescued by two government rescue packages totalling £100 billion. These stabilised British banks.

Dark Beaver's gross exaggeration aside, bailing out banks is still a sign of weakness, just as we'd had to bail out the auto industry. We can't pretend the North American auto industry is on solid ground when it needs a bailout in hard times. Just wait till next recession. I say if they're a burden on the economy, then let them fall and make room for new growing industries.

We should put an end to corporate welfare. The only welfare we really need is quality education. Teach a man to fish... as they say.



Quote:

We would have had more gold in reserve had a certain Scotsman not sold 400 tons (60%) of it between 1999 and 2002 when gold was at its cheapest in 20 years.

What does his being a Scotsman have to do with it? Let bygones be bygones.
 
Niflmir
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#21
I'm not exactly sure what Cameron thought was so unacceptable about a tax on financial transactions. The idea was to separate financial transactions into a class of trades (high frequency) and investments, and tax the trades. Since the income from financial transactions is already highly subsidized (it is taxed at 1/10th of the typical tax rate) this seems more than fair.

Oh right... the LSE is the only thing allowing Britain to hang onto its dwindling influence.
 
Tonington
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

Oh right... the LSE is the only thing allowing Britain to hang onto its dwindling influence.

Is that the London Stock Exchange or London School of Economics?
 
Blackleaf
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#23
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

I'm not exactly sure what Cameron thought was so unacceptable about a tax on financial transactions.

He thought, quite rightly, that such a tax would destroy the City of London, the world's financial powerhouse, which makes up 10% of the British economy (and over half of the EU's entire financial services sector). And, because of Britain's large financial sector, Britain would have had to pay a whopping 80% of an EU financial transactions tax.

I know the EU is set up only for the advantage of France and Germany and the French and Germans would like all member states to do things that favour only France and Germany, but I'm afraid Britain is different. Cameron was standing up for British interests - which is what the British people pay him to do - and not the interests of France and Germany. He also has the support of the British people - 62% support what he did with only 19% against what he did.

Basically, the French and Germans are jealous of the City of London's worldwide power and influence and want some of that for Paris and Frankfurt. They are trying to do everything that can to take power away from the City of London - which makes up a tenth of the British economy - to hand over to Paris and Frankfurt. The French and Germans thought the City of London would lose its influence when Britain declined to join the Euro. They were hoping that Paris and Frankfurt would therefore overtake London. This never happened and London merely pulled further ahead of Paris and Frankfurt and still has a bigger financial services sector than both of those pygmies put together. Now they are coming up with every trick in the book to take power off London to give to Paris and Frankfurt. Frankly, that's disgraceful and Britain showed them what for.

Britain's Chancellor, George Osborne, recently said something along the lines of: "Having the British accept a financial transactions tax would be like having the French accept a tax on cheese."

Quote:

Oh right... the LSE is the only thing allowing Britain to hang onto its dwindling influence.

I would wager £100 that Britain is far more influential in the world than Germany is. Not only does it export more goods and services to the vast world outside the EU than Germany does (and Britain has a trade surplus with the EU but doesn't with the rest of the world) but Britain has played a leading role in bringing democracy to Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya. Where was Germany in those countries? It did zilch in Iraq and Libya. In Afghanistan it has troops but, whereas the British are fighting the Taliban and being killed and maimed, the German soldiers (who aren't allowed out at night) sit on their arses in their base all day drinking beer, watching TV and playing table football. It's no accident that Britain has lost more troops in Afghanistan than the other 26 nations of the EU COMBINED.

Not only that, but whereas Britain's population is rapidly growing (it is expected to be ten million people bigger in about 15 years' time than it is now) Germany's is rapidly shrinking and, in the not-too-distant future, Britain will overtake Germany as the largest nation in Western Europe and, therefore, most likely , as Western Europe's largest economy. (It must horrify the Germans to think that Britain is on its way to becoming the EU's largest member state and economy).

Yet, despite all this, you have a cheek to that that it is Britain with a dwindling influence in the world.
Last edited by Blackleaf; Dec 14th, 2011 at 05:32 AM..
 
JLM
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#24
Quote: Originally Posted by BlackleafView Post


but Britain has played a leading role in bringing democracy to Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya. Where was Germany in those countries? It did zilch in Iraq and Libya. In Afghanistan it has troops but, whereas the British are fighting the Taliban and being killed and maimed, the German soldiers (who aren't allowed out at night) sit on their arses in their base all day drinking beer, watching TV and playing table football. It's no accident that Britain has lost more troops in Afghanistan than the other 26 nations of the EU COMBINED.

Not only that, but whereas Britain's population is rapidly growing (it is expected to be ten million people bigger in about 15 years' time than it is now) Germany's is rapidly shrinking and, in the not-too-distant future, Britain will overtake Germany as the largest nation in Western Europe and, therefore, most likely , as Western Europe's largest economy. (It must horrify the Germans to think that Britain is on its way to becoming the EU's largest member state and economy).

Yet, despite all this, you have a cheek to that that it is Britain with a dwindling influence in the world.

Not all that surprising really - the last two times Germany tried war they got the sh*t beaten out of them, so it's good to see they are learning.
 
Machjo
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#25
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

Not all that surprising really - the last two times Germany tried war they got the sh*t beaten out of them, so it's good to see they are learning.

They've learnt respect for international law a little better than their British counterparts too with respect to the illegal war in Iraq. And I'm not using the word "illegal" just for effect. It's well documented that according to international law, the Iraq war was illegal.
 
JLM
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#26
Quote: Originally Posted by MachjoView Post

They've learnt respect for international law a little better than their British counterparts too with respect to the illegal war in Iraq. And I'm not using the word "illegal" just for effect. It's well documented that according to international law, the Iraq war was illegal.

But then Saddam was highly illegal too, so one kind of balances out the other. Germany and France were both big disappointments in that war.
 
Machjo
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#27
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

But then Saddam was highly illegal too, so one kind of balances out the other. Germany and France were both big disappointments in that war.

Two wrongs still don't make a right. I'm still undecided about canada's involevement in Afghanistan, though it at least had the advantage of being legal. As for iraq, how can one country preach respect for the law and then not respect it itself. Leadership starts by example.
 
JLM
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#28
Quote: Originally Posted by MachjoView Post

Two wrongs still don't make a right. I'm still undecided about canada's involevement in Afghanistan, though it at least had the advantage of being legal. As for iraq, how can one country preach respect for the law and then not respect it itself. Leadership starts by example.

Actually when the U.S. went to war with Iraq they were very compassionate about it, they concentrated on destroying infrastructure - not lives (except for Saddam and his cronies) Most of the death in Iraq was perpetrated by the insurgents. I'm not sure how much respect I have for International law. That U.N. is THE most useless organization I can imagine. They just stand by while mayhem runs rampant in many third world countries. Canada has the right attitude with Afghanistan, but Afg. takes a little more muscle than we can provide. If every peace loving country in the world got together and made up its mind to beat the Tallyban I'm sure it could be accomplished.
 
Machjo
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#29
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

Actually when the U.S. went to war with Iraq they were very compassionate about it, they concentrated on destroying infrastructure - not lives (except for Saddam and his cronies) Most of the death in Iraq was perpetrated by the insurgents. I'm not sure how much respect I have for International law. That U.N. is THE most useless organization I can imagine. They just stand by while mayhem runs rampant in many third world countries. Canada has the right attitude with Afghanistan, but Afg. takes a little more muscle than we can provide. If every peace loving country in the world got together and made up its mind to beat the Tallyban I'm sure it could be accomplished.

I agree many international laws need to be changed. But it's the principle that I'm getting at. I disagree with laws allowing abortion too but you don't see me running around bombing abortion clinics in a righteous crusade to save the babies.

following the same argument that I think the law is stupid, if we all thought that way we'd soon run into a breakdown of law and order because nobody agrees all of the time with any given law.

in fact, I actually supported the War in iraq until the UN opposed it. i disagreed with the UN's decision, but as a matter of principle opposed Canada's or anyone's military involvement in Iraq from that point forwards while still supporting debating changeing the UN's decision at the UN.

But the principle remains, if you want others to respect the law, you have to resepct it too. That's a basic principle of social organization and stability in any civilization.
 
JLM
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#30
Quote: Originally Posted by MachjoView Post

I agree many international laws need to be changed. But it's the principle that I'm getting at. I disagree with laws allowing abortion too but you don't see me running around bombing abortion clinics in a righteous crusade to save the babies.

following the same argument that I think the law is stupid, if we all thought that way we'd soon run into a breakdown of law and order because nobody agrees all of the time with any given law.

in fact, I actually supported the War in iraq until the UN opposed it. i disagreed with the UN's decision, but as a matter of principle opposed Canada's or anyone's military involvement in Iraq from that point forwards while still supporting debating changeing the UN's decision at the UN.

But the principle remains, if you want others to respect the law, you have to resepct it too. That's a basic principle of social organization and stability in any civilization.

Good points!
 

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