Childhood Gender Segregation


karrie
#1
I've recently faced some wrath from friends over my views on a gender segregated play group. I'm curious to know what other peoples' views are on the issue. Should gender division be allowed? Are there certain times/places/instances where it is okay? Times when it's not?
 
L Gilbert
#2
About the only gender segregation I experienced as a yardape was in school washrooms, my sister's bedroom, and mine. Never would have thought it would have been needed.
 
karrie
#3
Quote: Originally Posted by L GilbertView Post

About the only gender segregation I experienced as a yardape was in school washrooms, my sister's bedroom, and mine. Never would have thought it would have been needed.

Really? No boyscouts, boy's hockey team? Nothing?
 
Tonington
#4
When I was Scouts there were girl scouts, there were girls who played on my baseball teams, hockey teams and soccer teams. If I had grown up in a large city it probably would have been much different. I think socializing in mixed gender groups is good.
 
karrie
#5
Quote: Originally Posted by ToningtonView Post

When I was Scouts there were girl scouts, there were girls who played on my baseball teams, hockey teams and soccer teams. If I had grown up in a large city it probably would have been much different. I think socializing in mixed gender groups is good.

scouts were co-ed when you were growing up? I thought they had only recently gone co-ed. Both my son and daughter attend beaverscouts, so I am aware they are currently co-ed, which I like. But, I'm not so sure that making every last activity co-ed all the time is necessary.
 
L Gilbert
#6
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

Really? No boyscouts, boy's hockey team? Nothing?

Forgot about boy/girlscouts. We did a lotta stuff together, though.
lol
When I played hockey we were lucky to get two actual teams so you couldn't be picky as to what gender the players were.
 
Tonington
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

scouts were co-ed when you were growing up? I thought they had only recently gone co-ed. Both my son and daughter attend beaverscouts, so I am aware they are currently co-ed, which I like. But, I'm not so sure that making every last activity co-ed all the time is necessary.

I don't think it's necessary either, but I also don't think segregation is needed, reminds me too much of the days when home economics for girls and shop class for the boys was the norm, not that I was around for that. As far as sports go, if there are enough participants to have a competitive girl team by all means I think it's good. I know when I was pitching in minor baseball, my worst inning of pitching ever I plunked two girls in the same inning. Felt kinda bad, but not so much once I thought about it some more.
 
karrie
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by ToningtonView Post

I don't think it's necessary either, but I also don't think segregation is needed, reminds me too much of the days when home economics for girls and shop class for the boys was the norm, not that I was around for that. As far as sports go, if there are enough participants to have a competitive girl team by all means I think it's good. I know when I was pitching in minor baseball, my worst inning of pitching ever I plunked two girls in the same inning. Felt kinda bad, but not so much once I thought about it some more.

Well, what I'm noticing is a definite gap between what girls are allowed, and what boys are allowed to do. Even you right away started talking about girls being allowed to have their own team. Here, there's a girls' club that meets after school, and the girlguides/brownies/sparks program still runs. The girls push to be allowed to play on the boy's teams, yet keep a strictly girl's team as well. Yet there's no boy's club, because that would be descriminitive, and Boy Scouts no longer exists. Instead, it's simply Scouts, and it's co-ed.

What I've gotten my **** chewed out for by friends, is taking my son to a 'stuff for boys' class at the cultural center. boy oriented arts and crafts, with no expectation that they sit still for more than three minutes at a time. *lol* I thought it was great.... apparently, I am in a minority.
 
talloola
#9
I had four daughters, who all were athletically gifted, and just loved sports, and rose to a very high
level in more than one sport.

They all participated with the boys on many occasions, which was good for them, as they needed to
be where the competition was equal to theirs, or higher. They didn't "PUSH" to go there, it was just a
natural move, as they were just too much for the girls in their class or age group. And, it wasn't just
my daughters, there were many girls who excelled at sports, who did that, nobody PUSHED.

I have never seen an occasion where any boy's wanted to (as they would say) go down to the level
of a regular girls team, they would hate that, it would humiliate them, and embarass them in front
of their friends.
 
L Gilbert
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by karrieView Post

Well, what I'm noticing is a definite gap between what girls are allowed, and what boys are allowed to do. Even you right away started talking about girls being allowed to have their own team. Here, there's a girls' club that meets after school, and the girlguides/brownies/sparks program still runs. The girls push to be allowed to play on the boy's teams, yet keep a strictly girl's team as well. Yet there's no boy's club, because that would be descriminitive, and Boy Scouts no longer exists. Instead, it's simply Scouts, and it's co-ed.

What I've gotten my **** chewed out for by friends, is taking my son to a 'stuff for boys' class at the cultural center. boy oriented arts and crafts, with no expectation that they sit still for more than three minutes at a time. *lol* I thought it was great.... apparently, I am in a minority.

Geeeeeeeeeez. More PCness at work.
 
L Gilbert
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by talloolaView Post

I had four daughters, who all were athletically gifted, and just loved sports, and rose to a very high
level in more than one sport.

They all participated with the boys on many occasions, which was good for them, as they needed to
be where the competition was equal to theirs, or higher. They didn't "PUSH" to go there, it was just a
natural move, as they were just too much for the girls in their class or age group. And, it wasn't just
my daughters, there were many girls who excelled at sports, who did that, nobody PUSHED.

I have never seen an occasion where any boy's wanted to (as they would say) go down to the level
of a regular girls team, they would hate that, it would humiliate them, and embarass them in front
of their friends.

Hey, I had a couple buddies that went to Home Ec and typing just because the classes were mostly girls. Thought about it myself. I should have. Maybe I could type better now.
 
talloola
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by L GilbertView Post

Hey, I had a couple buddies that went to Home Ec and typing just because the classes were mostly girls. Thought about it myself. I should have. Maybe I could type better now.

yeah, typing would fit that scenario, my husband, (in grade eight,) handed in a typing assignment that
a girl in the class had offered to do "for him". Of course they didn't realize that her typewriter didn't
type the same as his, so --- oops!
 
Vereya
#13
I think that gender segregation is a good thing. If we take sports, I don't think that girls and boys should be on a same team, or should compete with each other. Boys are stronger than girls, physically, so the competion between boys and girls won't be fair.
And I like the idea of boys' schools and girls' schools. I think that separate schools can help boys become men and girls become women in a better way, than co-ed schools.
 
Niflmir
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by VereyaView Post

I think that gender segregation is a good thing. If we take sports, I don't think that girls and boys should be on a same team, or should compete with each other. Boys are stronger than girls, physically, so the competion between boys and girls won't be fair.
And I like the idea of boys' schools and girls' schools. I think that separate schools can help boys become men and girls become women in a better way, than co-ed schools.

I think eventually segregation will die out. Sure, you can make arguments for team sports, but even then, I can find professional players that are men that are worse than female professional players. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with it though.

Anyways, the reason I think it has to die out is because of extremity. What are the reasons why male and female washrooms are seperated? I assume it has something to do with sexuality. Well, by that reasons we should have seperate washrooms for homosexuals as well. Then, we might as well just have single occupancy washrooms which are unisexual.
 
mapleleafgirl
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

I think eventually segregation will die out. Sure, you can make arguments for team sports, but even then, I can find professional players that are men that are worse than female professional players. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with it though.

Anyways, the reason I think it has to die out is because of extremity. What are the reasons why male and female washrooms are seperated? I assume it has something to do with sexuality. Well, by that reasons we should have seperate washrooms for homosexuals as well. Then, we might as well just have single occupancy washrooms which are unisexual.

thats stupid, homosexuals are still male and female. why are you all getting into washrooms as proof of your points? anyway, guys and girls are not the same.even though in school in lots of places were made to do things together, when left to ourselves guys naturally hang with guys and do guy things and so do the girls. anyway, youre behind the times cos lots of things in highs chool are just guys-like phys ed for example, we have guys phys ed and girls phys ed, not together.
 
Niflmir
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by mapleleafgirlView Post

thats stupid, homosexuals are still male and female. why are you all getting into washrooms as proof of your points? anyway, guys and girls are not the same.even though in school in lots of places were made to do things together, when left to ourselves guys naturally hang with guys and do guy things and so do the girls. anyway, youre behind the times cos lots of things in highs chool are just guys-like phys ed for example, we have guys phys ed and girls phys ed, not together.

Well its just that washrooms are the most obvious place where it seems necessary. The reason why it is not stupid is that if the only reason that we have two types of washrooms is because men and women are physiologically different, it is identical reasoning to segregating washrooms by color. I am appealing to the idea that the reason why there are two different washrooms is that there are valid fear of perverts. This is also a reason why there are women only gyms.

After appealing to that reason, which I think is the only valid reason for having two washrooms, I point out that I know of men who have been assaulted by homosexual men, and so that the fear that maybe a person of the same sex will assault you in a washroom is just as valid as the notion that a person of the opposite sex will, regardless of frequency of incidence.

To me the reason for having seperate washrooms being a phallus/vulva distinction is simply sexist.
 
marygaspe
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

Well its just that washrooms are the most obvious place where it seems necessary. The reason why it is not stupid is that if the only reason that we have two types of washrooms is because men and women are physiologically different, it is identical reasoning to segregating washrooms by color. I am appealing to the idea that the reason why there are two different washrooms is that there are valid fear of perverts. This is also a reason why there are women only gyms.

After appealing to that reason, which I think is the only valid reason for having two washrooms, I point out that I know of men who have been assaulted by homosexual men, and so that the fear that maybe a person of the same sex will assault you in a washroom is just as valid as the notion that a person of the opposite sex will, regardless of frequency of incidence.

To me the reason for having seperate washrooms being a phallus/vulva distinction is simply sexist.

I agree with maple, your premise is, to be honest, silly. Men and men and women are women. They need seperate washrooms not for sexist reasons, but because it would be inappropriate otherwise.

Trying to make things co-ed fail, in my opinion. Anyone with children would know this. Watch kids at play, boys gravitate to other boys and girls to other girls. I'm talking about outside scheduled sports, or whatever, activities.

This whole idea of girls being allowed into boys clubs when they still have girls only clubs is truly reverse sexism.

Nothing wrong with boys being with just boys, for that is how they learn how to socialize as males.

Maple is further right that in some ways you're behind the times, for most Ontario high school systems have gone back to boys and girls only gym classes.

I think we can put out all the PC words we want to, and yet the fact remains that boys and girls are different and operate differently from one another.
 
marygaspe
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

I think eventually segregation will die out. Sure, you can make arguments for team sports, but even then, I can find professional players that are men that are worse than female professional players. I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with it though.
l.


No, it will not, not as long as they have *****es and we do not.I think one of the problems with younger men is that they have been forced to do co-ed things and as a result, lack proper understanding of what being a man should be. Boys learn from their fathers, brothers and peers how to be male. That does not mean they are better then us, but they are different and there is nothing wrong with that.
 
Niflmir
#19
Quote: Originally Posted by marygaspeView Post

I agree with maple, your premise is, to be honest, silly. Men and men and women are women. They need seperate washrooms not for sexist reasons, but because it would be inappropriate otherwise.

Trying to make things co-ed fail, in my opinion. Anyone with children would know this. Watch kids at play, boys gravitate to other boys and girls to other girls. I'm talking about outside scheduled sports, or whatever, activities.

This whole idea of girls being allowed into boys clubs when they still have girls only clubs is truly reverse sexism.

Nothing wrong with boys being with just boys, for that is how they learn how to socialize as males.

Maple is further right that in some ways you're behind the times, for most Ontario high school systems have gone back to boys and girls only gym classes.

I think we can put out all the PC words we want to, and yet the fact remains that boys and girls are different and operate differently from one another.

Ok, you have two points there.

Why would it be inappropriate? Because of gender identity issues or because of biological sex? I think if you try to formulate an explanation for me instead of simply asserting its inappropriateness you will need to use ideas about human sexuality and not just physical biology. A reasoning for this segregation, in my opinion, rests solely on antiquated gender theory which equates physical sexuality and gender identitiy. I don't think we should have a segregation at all, I think that there should be private washrooms, period. Please don't believe that I am suggesting we segregate on the notions of gender identity.

The idea that we can learn about our own nature by observing children is problematic because we are never sure at what point they become indoctrinated with our own cultural biases. But nevertheless I do agree with you, there is a certain amount of natural seperation, but what I rebel against is any sort of enforced seperation which has no reasonable distinction.

Quote: Originally Posted by marygaspeView Post

No, it will not, not as long as they have *****es and we do not.I think one of the problems with younger men is that they have been forced to do co-ed things and as a result, lack proper understanding of what being a man should be. Boys learn from their fathers, brothers and peers how to be male. That does not mean they are better then us, but they are different and there is nothing wrong with that.

Agreed, but I would like to posit that being a man means something different to everyone, we are slowly coming around to the knowledge of what it means to be a man in the twenty first century.
 
mapleleafgirl
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

O


Agreed, but I would like to posit that being a man means something different to everyone, we are slowly coming around to the knowledge of what it means to be a man in the twenty first century.

okay. im not as old as most of you, but i have an opinion on this. i see a problem from your comment, one allot of us women make...we are trying to tell the men what they need to be now. maybe we should let the men talk for themselves. no way, no matter how much we read about it, will we understand what it is like being a guy and living up to what other guys expect a man to be.only a guy can really know what guys need to be, in my opinion.
 
mapleleafgirl
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

Ok, you have two points there.

Why would it be inappropriate? Because of gender identity issues or because of biological sex? I think if you try to formulate an explanation for me instead of simply asserting its inappropriateness you will need to use ideas about human sexuality and not just physical biology. A reasoning for this segregation, in my opinion, rests solely on antiquated gender theory which equates physical sexuality and gender identitiy. I don't think we should have a segregation at all, I think that there should be private washrooms, period. Please don't believe that I am suggesting we segregate on the notions of gender identity. century.

oh no way, sorry, no way would i or any other girl want guys sharing our bathrooms. its just not right. no point pretending that guys dont want it either i bet. tere ar certain things that are just private, and using a bathroom is one of them. besides, hard to talk about the guys if theyre in there with us

look at it another way. if you had a young daughter, would you let her run around naked in front of the male neighbours? so, if you wouldnt do that, why would you le her in a public bathroom
 
Niflmir
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by mapleleafgirlView Post

okay. im not as old as most of you, but i have an opinion on this. i see a problem from your comment, one allot of us women make...we are trying to tell the men what they need to be now. maybe we should let the men talk for themselves. no way, no matter how much we read about it, will we understand what it is like being a guy and living up to what other guys expect a man to be.only a guy can really know what guys need to be, in my opinion.

I agree with you completely. I just think that my experience will always be a lot different from what men's experience in the past were. I think there is certainly some unattainable "norm", that nobody fits into exactly but describes a lot of our experiences. I think that you can understand a lot from that.

Of course we should never discount empathy and sympathy. To say that someone will never fully understand me is not to say that someone can not understand me partially.

I don't want to ever say what any person should be like. (well maybe that people should not be hateful and mean, but that's it, I swear!) I apologize if I implied that.
 
Niflmir
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by mapleleafgirlView Post

oh no way, sorry, no way would i or any other girl want guys sharing our bathrooms. its just not right. no point pretending that guys dont want it either i bet. tere ar certain things that are just private, and using a bathroom is one of them. besides, hard to talk about the guys if theyre in there with us

look at it another way. if you had a young daughter, would you let her run around naked in front of the male neighbours? so, if you wouldnt do that, why would you le her in a public bathroom

I am not suggesting that. I am in fact suggesting personal bathrooms to avoid an already thorny issue. As to whether you want a guy in your bathroom, what about a transgendered male, would you allow her into your washroom? San Francisco, California and a number of other states say you don't have a choice, when the issue comes up in Canada, I am sure you won't have one here anymore either.

As for the young daughter, depends on her age (there is a window where certainly I should instil a moral view in one direction or the other). It is largely a red herring though, what I am saying is that the male/female distinction is a false dichotomy because male is not the same as man, and female is not the same as woman. We need to embrace a larger picture of human sexuality.
 
mapleleafgirl
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

I am not suggesting that. I am in fact suggesting personal bathrooms to avoid an already thorny issue. As to whether you want a guy in your bathroom, what about a transgendered male, would you allow her into your washroom? San Francisco, California and a number of other states say you don't have a choice, when the issue comes up in Canada, I am sure you won't have one here anymore either.
ty.


you mean "he". guys dressing like women are freaks and should go get counselling. i dont care how much makeup they put on, if they got a *****, theyre guys. being a guy isnt about the clothes you wear, isnt that what we tell guys nowadays? anyway, thats a bad example cos im talking normal people not pyschologicaly ill people.
 
Niflmir
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by mapleleafgirlView Post

you mean "he". guys dressing like women are freaks and should go get counselling. i dont care how much makeup they put on, if they got a *****, theyre guys. being a guy isnt about the clothes you wear, isnt that what we tell guys nowadays? anyway, thats a bad example cos im talking normal people not pyschologicaly ill people.

Ah, but that's exactly why I picked this example. In fact what we say nowadays is: society does not tell you who you are, biology does not tell you who you are, you tell us who you are. Having a ***** or a ****** is irrelevent to one's identity and modern psychologists recognize that. I don't care how much makeup they wear either, and I am not necessarily talking about transvestites, I am talking about genuine transgendered individuals. It is these people that enforced segregations hurt and antiquated views of gender can't accomodate.
 
m_levesque
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by NiflmirView Post

I agree with you completely. I just think that my experience will always be a lot different from what men's experience in the past were. I think there is certainly some unattainable "norm", that nobody fits into exactly but describes a lot of our experiences. I think that you can understand a lot from that.

Of course we should never discount empathy and sympathy. To say that someone will never fully understand me is not to say that someone can not understand me partially.

I don't want to ever say what any person should be like. (well maybe that people should not be hateful and mean, but that's it, I swear!) I apologize if I implied that.


One of the problems in today's PC world, as Maple hinted at, is a cross sexism against males. We now live in a time when women are trying to tell us how to think and how to behave. In fact, we need to bond with other males as young boys. It is as essential for us as boys as it is for girls.
 
m_levesque
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by mapleleafgirlView Post

oh no way, sorry, no way would i or any other girl want guys sharing our bathrooms. its just not right. no point pretending that guys dont want it either i bet. tere ar certain things that are just private, and using a bathroom is one of them. besides, hard to talk about the guys if theyre in there with us a public bathroom

Quite right. Let's remember we are talking about gender roles for children. That being the case, one of the major reasons for different washrooms for children is the fact that these washrooms include communal showers. It would be most inappropriate, for the sake of decency, to mix the two in one area in such cases. I mean, you wouldn't let your teenage daughter shower with her male friends, would you?
 
hermanntrude
#28
I went to an all-boys boarding school, then went to another all boys school, then went to university. At that stage i was totally unprepared. It made me pretty useless for a good few years. Might not be a bad thing though, but it made me pretty miserable. Imagine a 20 year old who's unable to talk to girls cos he's hardly ever met one.
 
karrie
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by mapleleafgirlView Post

okay. im not as old as most of you, but i have an opinion on this. i see a problem from your comment, one allot of us women make...we are trying to tell the men what they need to be now. maybe we should let the men talk for themselves. no way, no matter how much we read about it, will we understand what it is like being a guy and living up to what other guys expect a man to be.only a guy can really know what guys need to be, in my opinion.

There are simply too many posts since I put this up last night to reply to them all, but this one really caught my eye. I think your observation is a very astute one Maple. At older ages, I don't find this to be such a concern, but right now my son is 5. And he's a hyper 5. He's a true boy... loud, jumpy, and physical. He does well in integrated play groups, and he's adjusting to kindergarten, but he still gets very frustrated, because he constantly has to try to change his behavior from its natural path. There's nothing wrong with who he is normally, but, the girls don't appreciate loud, physical play for the most part. So he has to adjust to fit. not the other way around.

When I saw this boys' class, the idea of a class where he can make messes, run and play with other boys, be rough and tumble if he wants, and not have to apologize for it, I jumped at it. I don't want my son to grow up having to constantly supress and change who he is. I want there to be some areas where he can maintain who he wants to be, rather than being told by others what to become.
 
karrie
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by hermanntrudeView Post

I went to an all-boys boarding school, then went to another all boys school, then went to university. At that stage i was totally unprepared. It made me pretty useless for a good few years. Might not be a bad thing though, but it made me pretty miserable. Imagine a 20 year old who's unable to talk to girls cos he's hardly ever met one.

I wonder where it is exactly that I draw the line.... because I don't find that degree of gender segregation to be acceptable. Like you say, it doesn't prepare you for the real world.
 

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