Why The Towers Fell

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quandary121

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That is your opinion, we’re trying to have a conversation to figure this out.



The photo “evidence” you have presented is definitely not immediately after the collapse. For two days there was debris in the air that darkened the sunlight over Ground Zero, as you can see in your photos, the sun is shining. What is the exact date of the photos you presented? Is it the day after? Is it 3 months later? We need some sort of timeline otherwise it the pictures could have been taken 6 months later for all we know. Firefighters were there up until 11 months later.


Yes, you have to substantiate this claim. Dogs sniffing explosives was a daily event at the WTC since 1993. Security patrolling the towers was evident up until 3 days earlier when I had breakfast in the promenade. Please elaborate.



You need to elaborate on this one fairly well because I tell you they did not fall at near free fall speed.



Show me another building that had the same exo skeletal design that the WTC had, and caught fire since. You are comparing apples to oranges when you are not taking under consideration similar design methods.



They were big enough for people to plunge to their deaths rather than face the fire within, and fires were raging from impact to collapse.



That’s an outright lie. I was part of the cleanup effort days after the events. Truckloads of steel was hauled off by trucks, taken to a nearby pier on the west side where they were loade don barges and shipped to Staten Island, JFK airport hangars and in New Jersey. Nobody touched anything until 18 months later, and still, much of it remains in hangars.



Tell me how much thermite is needed to cause such an explosion/cut. Your answer has to be in TONS and VOLUME.

Yes, you have to substantiate this claim. Dogs sniffing explosives was a daily event at the WTC since 1993. Security patrolling the towers was evident up until 3 days earlier when I had breakfast in the promenade. Please elaborate.

your word again why should i believe you you have no proof i only have YOUR WORD which count for very little

Tell me how much thermite is needed to cause such an explosion/cut. Your answer has to be in TONS and VOLUME.
[/QUOTE]

Assume 3000 lbs of aluminum fell from the towers. If it had been molten iron produced by thermite, then 6*3000 = 18,000 lbs of thermite reactants would have been required to produce that same volume of falling mass.

Show me another building that had the same exo skeletal design that the WTC had, and caught fire since. You are comparing apples to oranges when you are not taking under consideration similar design methods.

And you expect me to show you proof while showing none yourself expecting me to be an explosives expert an aviation fuel expert an architect,

That’s an outright lie. I was part of the cleanup effort days after the events. Truckloads of steel was hauled off by trucks, taken to a nearby pier on the west side where they were loade don barges and shipped to Staten Island, JFK airport hangars and in New Jersey. Nobody touched anything until 18 months later, and still, much of it remains in hangars.

Once again says you you show no proof but expect lots from me
 

CDNBear

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most of the aviation fuel would have been burnt up within minutes of the hit dark clouds prove the fact, as footage of the planes indicates that it did so


Have you ever seen aviation fuel burn? I guess not, or wouldn't have said such a stupid thing. It's almost impossible to see the flame of aviation fuel and the smoke plume is not black. The initial fire ball, is what happens when you vapourise aviation fuel into an oxygen rich atmosphere, complete with other quick ignite combustibles such as paper products. Unfortunately, it isn't completely burned off and has been prove as such in this case. But even if it had, the damage would have already been done and the floors set a blaze.

this is six weeks later. As we get closer to the center of this it gets hotter and hotter - it's probably 1500 degrees."
In perfect conditions the maximum temperature that can be reached by hydrocarbons such as jet fuel burning in air is 1520 F (825 C). When the World Trade Center collapsed the deeply buried fires would have been deprived of oxygen and their temperatures would have significantly decreased.
Really? This must be news to air tight wood burning stove manufacturers???!!!
Why was the temperature at the core of "the pile" nearly 5000 F hotter than the maximum burning temperature of jet fuel a full seven days after the collapses?
5000 F? That's a new hight in the temp crap shoot for me. Where did you get the data on that?

Assume 3000 lbs of aluminum fell from the towers. If it had been molten iron produced by thermite, then 6*3000 = 18,000 lbs of thermite reactants would have been required to produce that same volume of falling mass.
Despite the incoherent nature of that statement of claim, there is still no impurical data showing any Thermite residue in the pit. And you think out of 18,000lbs of Thermite, not only would there be some residue as there is in any controlled demo, but more importantly, some would have noticed them trucking it up 100 floors of the WTC. Considering it's never empty. I find that hard to believe.
 

Colpy

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they used explosives dogs used before 9/11 to sniff out explosives were withdrawn upto 2 months earlier

The suggestion appears to be that the WTC was running at below normal security levels immediately before the attacks,. Here's the beginning of the Newsday.com story that forms the basis for this claim.
The World Trade Center was destroyed just days after a heightened security alert was lifted at the landmark 110-story towers, security personnel said yesterday.

Daria Coard, 37, a guard at Tower One, said the security detail had been working 12-hour shifts for the past two weeks because of numerous phone threats. But on Thursday, bomb-sniffing dogs were abruptly removed.

"Today was the first day there was not the extra security," Coard said. "We were protecting below. We had the ground covered. We didn't figure they would do it with planes. There is no way anyone could have stopped that."

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/ny-nyaler122362178sep12,0,1255660.story
Note that the story talks of a "heightened security alert" being lifted, and "extra security" being taken away. So the security levels weren't weakened compared to usual, they were just returning to normal levels.

What's more, the idea that all bomb-sniffing dogs were removed appears to be incorrect. Consider this.
Police K9 Sirius... ...was an Explosive Detection Dog with the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey Police Department. Sirius, along with his partner, Police Officer David Lim, were assigned to the World Trade Center in New York, where their primary duty was to check vehicles entering the Complex, clear unattended bags and sweep areas for VIP safety...
On the morning of September 11, 2001, Sirius and Officer Lim were at their Station located in the basement of Tower Two...
http://www.novareinna.com/bridge/sirius.html
Presumably there would have been at least one other dog in tower one, perhaps others working different shifts. It looks like these at least were fixed and not wandering the building, but this would still pose a problem for vehicles bringing explosives. Maybe the WTC wasn't quite so insecure, after all.

http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc_bomb_sniffing_dogs.html
 

quandary121

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Dead link dude.

regardless of that as i did not make the link only submited it thinking it would have worked the evedence that Molten steel was found "three, four, and five weeks later, when the rubble was being removed [from WTCs 1 & 2]," Loizeaux said. He said molten steel was also found at 7 WTC, which collapsed mysteriously in the late afternoon. still applys

Dr. Frank Gayle, Metals Expert, on the jet fuel fires which burned in the WTC buildings:"Your gut reaction would be the jet fuel is what made the fire so very intense, a lot of people figured that's what melted the steel. Indeed it didn't, the steel did not melt." [Firehouse.com]
 

quandary121

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"Anyone who has ever watched a building being demolished on purpose knows that if you're going to do this you have to get at the under-infrastructure of the building to bring it down"Peter Jennings, ABC News 9/11/2001.
WMV video download (171kB).


"If I were to bring the towers down, I would put explosives in the basement to get the weight of the building to help collapse the structure"
Mark Loizeaux, president,
Controlled Demolition Inc.
 

quandary121

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"I guess about three minutes later you just heard explosions coming from building two, the south tower. It seemed like it took forever, but there were about ten explosions." [Craig Carlsen -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)]
Video documenting explosions at the base of WTC 2 prior to its collapse.
WMV video dowenload (2.8 MB)
When the rescue team reached an area directly in front of Tower Two, Antonio said he'd take over the equipment cart Will had pushed from Building 5. ... The team moved ahead. ... Suddenly the hallway began to shudder as a terrible deafening roar swept over them. That's when Will saw the giant fireball explode in the street. [bowhunter.com]
As Ron DiFrancesco ran away [from WTC 2] he was hit by a fireball ... he was probably the last person out alive. "I saw the fireball and heard a loud noise. That's all I remember..."WMV video download (291kB)
"All of a sudden I heard a roar and I saw one of the towers blow ... I saw from street level as though it exploded up, a giant rolling ball of flame..."WMV video download (392kB)
Same reporter: "I hear simultaneously this roar and see what appears to be a gigantic fireball rising up at ground level . . . I remember seeing this giant ball of fire come out of the earth as I heard this roar" [Running Toward Danger: Stories Behind the Breaking News of 9/11 - P 239]​
Survivor in WTC 1 stairwell during WTC 2 collapse: "...and all of a sudden this huge cloud of dark grey smoke comes shooting up the stairway ... and it was hot - very, very hot."WMV video download (201kB)
White smoke emerging from the dust cloud of the collapsing WTC 2.
WMV video download (341kB)
"We start walking back there and then I heard a ground level explosion and I'm like holy ****, and then you heard that twisting metal wreckage again." [James McKinley - E.M.T. (E.M.S.)]"I was standing next to 1 World Trade Center and then all of a sudden I heard rumbling and we all started running away from it. The glass like blew out and threw me onto the sidewalk ... and I couldn't see for like twenty seconds..."WMV video download (513kB)

White smoke at the base of WTC 1 seconds before its collapse.Video with zoom:
582kB wmv download

Video without zoom:
1.4MB wmv download

 

Colpy

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regardless of that as i did not make the link only submited it thinking it would have worked the evedence that Molten steel was found "three, four, and five weeks later, when the rubble was being removed [from WTCs 1 & 2]," Loizeaux said. He said molten steel was also found at 7 WTC, which collapsed mysteriously in the late afternoon. still applys

Dr. Frank Gayle, Metals Expert, on the jet fuel fires which burned in the WTC buildings:"Your gut reaction would be the jet fuel is what made the fire so very intense, a lot of people figured that's what melted the steel. Indeed it didn't, the steel did not melt." [Firehouse.com]

Too long to quote.....have a look.

http://www.debunking911.com/moltensteel.htm
 

quandary121

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Yes ive been there allready today and seen all of what they say to be facts but one page set up to debunk the facts does not prove all the countless others proving it was an inside job ,you have already dismissed the idea in your own head so why try to make me believe what you think to be the truth , as you will not change your mind nomatter how many points i bring to this debate so give up pal as reasoning with you over this will be pointless
 

quandary121

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Funny, we were just thinking the exact same thing.


we were just thinking the exact

Oh i see so this is nolonger a debate its down to how many of your m8s agree with you is it ,ive put many questions to you and you fail time and time again to prove any thing you say i could say any of the things that you have as you dont back up any of your statements but like i said before you expect me to do all the thinking and show times dates photographs ,measurements (in tons please) you have shown nothing zip nill of what you proffer to know how about you showing me some proofs account for something anything apart form your pathetic arguments like i was walking my dog near it when it happen so i know .lmao :?:
 

Colpy

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Yes ive been there allready today and seen all of what they say to be facts but one page set up to debunk the facts does not prove all the countless others proving it was an inside job ,you have already dismissed the idea in your own head so why try to make me believe what you think to be the truth , as you will not change your mind nomatter how many points i bring to this debate so give up pal as reasoning with you over this will be pointless

Yep.

The site deals with 18 different subjects.........each subject with its own "page" which would be several pages long if printed. You really spent a long time looking at it, didn't you?

No, because you've made up your mind, and if 9-11 was really a terrorist attack, your whole belief system comes tumbling down.

You really don't want to be confused with the facts.

This is only one site of two I've posted here. Both go on at great length............

You should actually READ them!
 

#juan

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Yes ive been there allready today and seen all of what they say to be facts but one page set up to debunk the facts does not prove all the countless others proving it was an inside job ,you have already dismissed the idea in your own head so why try to make me believe what you think to be the truth , as you will not change your mind nomatter how many points i bring to this debate so give up pal as reasoning with you over this will be pointless

Quandary you've brought some strong arguments to this topic that can't be put down without equally strong arguments from the other side which have not been forthcoming. I have always hovered a bit ....I mean I watched the aircraft hit the towers on 9/11 maybe fifty seven times. Building 7 went down so smooth it always looked like a professional job to me but I couldn't get my head around the sheer size if the conspiracy required to pull it off. To me, this is the strongest argument against any kind of conspiracy. By now half the conspirators would have written a book about the damn thing.
 

quandary121

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Yep.

The site deals with 18 different subjects.........each subject with its own "page" which would be several pages long if printed. You really spent a long time looking at it, didn't you?

No, because you've made up your mind, and if 9-11 was really a terrorist attack, your whole belief system comes tumbling down.

You really don't want to be confused with the facts.

This is only one site of two I've posted here. Both go on at great length............

You should actually READ them!

if 9-11 was really a terrorist attack

One huge if pal

You really spent a long time looking at it, didn't you?

Yes in fact i did.!!! As i knew this would be the arguments that you and YOUR M8S would use against my arguments,im not so dumb as to see what arguments you would try and use to defend your stance, nor am i that dumb to think that i know all the arguments for and against the facts , nothing any of you have said holds up to the fact that the building was designed to withstand a direct plane hitting it ,also the freefalling of said building ,none of you have explained the SQUIBS and never will !!!!
 

CDNBear

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Oh i see so this is nolonger a debate its down to how many of your m8s agree with you is it ,ive put many questions to you and you fail time and time again to prove any thing you say i could say any of the things that you have as you dont back up any of your statements but like i said before you expect me to do all the thinking and show times dates photographs ,measurements (in tons please) you have shown nothing zip nill of what you proffer to know how about you showing me some proofs account for something anything apart form your pathetic arguments like i was walking my dog near it when it happen so i know .lmao :?:
Look conundrum. You spout off about reason and analytical thought like you have a lock on the market thereof. Let me explain what it is you are missing.
1) The WTC are unlike any other building in the history of the world, save the fact that they are indeed buildings.
2) Eye witnesses, one of which (ITN) is attempting to address some pretty glaring inconsistencies in the whole CT thing you got going on.
3) Whether you wish to accept my word for it or not, I'm Six Nation, related to Mohawk High Steel workers that built the building. I'm also ex Army and have worked in mining. I have an excellent understanding and knowledge of explosives and have worked with them extensively.
4) Again, whether you wish to believe it or not, I am a professional welder/fabricator, I actually have a contract with one of the worlds largest manufacturer of elevators, ThyssenKrupp. They retro'd the elevators in the WTC a few years before 9/11. Not only have I discussed the event at length engineers and architects that know the structure in side and out, I've seen technical computer models, by and for non partisan professionals, who have explained exactly what NIST and the rest of the alaphabet camp have said all along.
5) If you contact your local Fire dept, they will indeed tell that a hydrocarbon fire, will not only weaken any steel structure, it will melt it in the right conditions.
6) This topic has been beaten to death around these parts, so you have to take some ribbing from us Vets when it comes to this silly topic.


3 and 4 are subjective at best, that I understand. None of my credentials make me an expert by any stretch of the imagination. But what you are asserting here is, without a doubt, ridiculous. The monumental scale of an operation of this magnitude would require a great many people to be involved. Would make it inconceivable to maintain secrecy this long without someone breaking ranks. That doesn't even touch on the glaring holes in the theories put for by the people you quote.

Go back and reread the stuff you have posted, then go and read the NIST report or an abbreviation thereof and try to do that with an open mind. You will see, as do most of those that do, that there are far to many variables at play. For it to be an inside job in the sense that you have asserted.

Besides that, Bush is nowhere near smart enough to orchestrate such an complicated event.
 

CDNBear

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the fact that the building was designed to withstand a direct plane hitting it
Umm, yes I did. The building was designed to withstand a hit from a 747, low on fuel, travelling slowly on approach. Not a fully fuelled 737-222, at full speed.

This, if you read the entire statement by the Architectural firm involved in the WTC design, would not be an issue.

also the freefalling of said building ,none of you have explained the SQUIBS and never will !!!!
The SQUIBS? You mean the windows popping out as the floors above forced more air downward as they pancaked over and over? Ya that takes a rocket scientist to fingure out...:roll:

You still don't even know what free falling is, I asked you to explain it, but you can't. You likely won't without a copy and paste job either. Parrot oh bringer of mirth and merriment.
 

quandary121

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BTW, here's a report by experts on controled demolition.......

Simplest, most observable fact about WTC that disproves the controled demolition theory.......

The WTC collapsed from the top down.

Buildings destroyed by controled demolition collapse from the bottom up.


http://www.implosionworld.com/Article-WTC STUDY 8-06 w clarif as of 9-8-06 .pdf


White smoke at the base of WTC 1 seconds before its collapse.VideoVideo with zoom:
wwmvdownload

Video without zoom:
1.4MB wwmvdownload


If you bothered to look at my previous posts (which i doubt you have ) instead of jumping in guns blasting , could you please explain this fact , also eyewitness testify they heard explosions from the BASEMENT before the collapse of the towers.!!! FACT



THIS DOES NOT ACCOUNT FOR THIS IN FACT IT SUPPORTS WHAT IVE SAID THAT THEY START FROM THE GROUND UP
 
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