Authority

[china]

All authority of any kind, especially in the field of thought and understanding, is the most destructive, evil thing. Leaders destroy the followers and followers destroy the leaders. You have to be your own teacher and your own disciple. You have to question everything that man has accepted as valuable, as necessary ,"distrust them, because it is you yourself who have to find out (the Truth), not according to somebody else

 

[maepaulino]

the point?

 

[hermanntrude]

I see your point that all authority leads to destruction of creativity. But at the same time without authority things tend to descend into chaos, which also results in loss of creativity. You have to find a happy medium i think. Anarchy is all very well but then everyone has to be responsible for themselves and we know that many people are not capable of that. Military discipline is all very well but without some freedom to make your own choices, your own discoveries and yoiur own mistakes there is no love and life in the world

 

[Curiosity]

China

Perhaps it works in China?

 

[humanbeing]

I don't think you are wrong, china...

But the authority should be questioned too, of course. Perhaps there are times when it can be justified, if not only temporarily?

To be sure, I think it would be silly for you or I to ever believe we could pull this off perfectly, let alone expect this of all people. At best, we can set this as a distant, perhaps unreachable personal goal.

 

[humanbeing]

that you believe "all authority of any kind, especially in the field of thought and understanding, is the most destructive, evil thing" makes me wonder if you have even questioned all forms of authority you have encountered. when i question to myself what you have said, a number of things come up.

is it wrong for a parent to use their authority to grab their child before he runs into the middle of a busy street? perhaps that child has not yet learned to question the value of paying attention to the world around them, and their own safety?

perhaps somewhere there is a boudary, or maybe more of a gradient, seperating what you say and what is inherent in the initial state of the mind. the only thing i can agree upon is authority always needs to be questioned, and that this is something all humans ought to strive towards doing. i don't know if this is something inherent in all human beings though.

Of course, who am i to say what other people ought to do?

 

[china]

humanbeing : is it wrong for a parent to use their authority to grab their child before he runs into the middle of a busy street? perhaps that child has not yet learned to question the value of paying attention to the world around them, and their own safety
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Dear humanbeig ,you can use authority (if you have any) to stop the traffic .To protect your child who ... " has not yet learned to question the value of paying attention to the world around them
and their own safety ' , you use common sense ,and alllot of LOVE ,not authority .

humanbeing : Of course, who am i to say what other people ought to do?
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Is that what you would say /do if you would see a stranger's child ,lost on a busy street?, if so ,you "shorre ain't much of a "humanbeing " , brothaa...!

 

[MattUK]

I would rather live with some form of authority than in a world of chaos.

Take away all the authority in the world right now.... what a bloody mess.

Sorry China, I get the point, but its about as realistic as a blue elephant.

 

[tamarin]

Without authority you wouldn't have community. Every child recognizes a bully. And every adult recognizes a predator. Without rules - without authority - it's every person for himself. We are animals and the animal world is survival of the fittest and strongest. But unlike all other animals we've actually tried to control our natural predispositions. Using Authority. The prerequisite of civilization.

 

[Curiosity]

This topic leads me to wonder.....

To avoid chaos we must find those who are willing to take on leadership or at least bring a group together
to gain consensus if not total, some form of compliance for order and the making of society.

What are the attributes of a good leader ?

 

[tamarin]

More importantly, what are the attributes of a good citizen?

 

[china]

mattUK :
I would rather live with some form of authority than in a world of chaos.
Take away all the authority in the world right now.... what a bloody mess.
Sorry China, I get the point, but its about as realistic as a blue elephant.
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No need to be sorry ,this is a forum ,a place where we can chalenge each others points of view and hopefuly find a common denominator .I hope we can do that.
I want to ask you a question;how would you like to live under an authority of Stalin ,Hitler,Sadam or Nicolae Ceausescu ? Do you recall what happen to good ol' Nicolae ?,well people had enough of his authority and Nicolae began his 'spiritual journey' sooner than he has anticipated.We are all created free , the moment we are born ,not as if freedom is something that we have to work for, and "then we are"finaly free".Freedom is at the begining not at the end of our lifes,it is our "inheritance".It is an an entity,like love or happiness .There is no such thing like being free "from someting ". Fredom is "what is", but obviously you are free to choose not to be free ,just like you can choose not to love or be happy. So,to one who understand his freedom ,an authority creates a friction .

You state that if we take away an authority ,the world would be in a "bloody mess".Well ,there is more and more authority, and the world IS in a bloody mess ,dont you think so?

This is a Spiritual/Philosophy part of our forum ,and the post is aming in that direction .You are free to be free and you are also free to sell your freedom to an authority . Live and let live.( Love the fab four).

PS.In regards to the blue elephants......we are all authors of our reality.Well ..... as long as you dont see more then three pigeons.

 

[MikeyDB]

Plato told us that whomever has the might has the right...

Whomever has the ability the power the money the weapons the means of imposing their authority on others, that's who will decide who has and who doesn't have "authority".

It is a truism not flowery prose or obscure philosophical rumination....

Governments behave this way all the time; the wealthy behave this way all the time; thugs and criminals behave this way all the time....

 

[china]

tamarin :We are animals and the animal world is survival of the fittest and strongest.
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Forgot one word......SOCIAL...animals.(that,s why we put fences around "our " property ,sue are friends and vote liberals.... just good citizens).

 

[tamarin]

There are lots of animals that are social or group animals besides humans.

 

[china]

MikeyDB : Plato told us that whomever has the might has the right...
Whomever has the ability the power the money the weapons the means of imposing their authority on others, that's who will decide who has and who doesn't have "authority".
It is a truism not flowery prose or obscure philosophical rumination....
Governments behave this way all the time; the wealthy behave this way all the time; thugs and criminals behave this way all the time....
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Plato said many things .So did Jesus, Bush ,Kennedy ,Nixon ,Aristotle, Chairman Mao ,they also said many things ...So what? What do YOU say ? ....not to others ...to yourself,because what you say to yourself is what matters.

 

[china]

Tamarin: There are lots of animals that are social or group animals besides humans.
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Yes , and none of them fly to the moon and vote Liberals.

 

[EastSideScotian]

I would rather live with some form of authority than in a world of chaos.

Take away all the authority in the world right now.... what a bloody mess.

Sorry China, I get the point, but its about as realistic as a blue elephant.

I agree.



And I better not see any jackasses with blue spray paint near any elephants...

 

[humanbeing]

Dear humanbeig ,you can use authority (if you have any) to stop the traffic .To protect your child who ... " has not yet learned to question the value of paying attention to the world around them
and their own safety ' , you use common sense ,and alllot of LOVE ,not authority .

A parent and a child love one another, but the fact doesn't change, sometimes a child would rather do something different than what the parent has in mind, like run out into the middle of a street. The parent might not have the authority to stop the traffic, but they have enough to grab the kid or tell them not to go onto the road (with the hopes that the child will respect their wishes or actions). Yes, you are right this comes down to love, and to other things, more than to authority. But it still remains, there is authority.

I disdain unjustified authority, but I would still question and see if there were any justification in it, rather than flat out denounce it as you suggest. Of course, I should just as well question what you say... you come off sounding like an authority yourself (as do I in some cases, perhaps).

 

[Curiosity]

Teaching the young

Children will understand if the message is clear and given with love as China writes.

If an authoritarian style of learning is offered - especially one which involves fear or frightening as to consequences - most children absorb the fear not the lesson therefore making it difficult to bring back the trauma of the moment.

Clearing the path to learning - we have to guide along a comfortable route - a journey which the young remembers with security, fondness and understanding, and later as an adult: "my mother/father taught me that lesson long ago."

That is one example of the use of authority, but I think the topic was directed at an adult society ...?