Family calls 911 for help with special needs daughter, cops show up & shoot her dead

[Sal]

Re: Family calls 911 for help with special needs daughter, cops show up & shoot her d

Rubber bullets, maybe. Shooting in the arm? No. I know very little about guns and hitting targets, but I do know that is not realistic as a plan of action.




See I can't throw all the blame on the police officer here, if, as the article states, she came at deputies with a knife then in that situation he was justified in defending his life and the lives of others.

But I do agree that there needs to be more thought and planning into how to deal with mentally ill individuals before the 911 call comes in.

This is how I look at it. An individual who is not mentally ill can also be in an agitated state and potentially dangerous but they can, possibly, still be reasoned with. So a threat of force from police, stated or simply implied by their presence is often enough to get through to said individual. Sometimes not, but then they are making that choice of their own volition. Someone who is mentally ill probably can not be reasoned with. But at the end of the day someone coming at an officer with a knife or other weapon is still just as much of a threat, irrespective of whether they are mentally ill or not. Knowing ahead of time that a potentially mentally ill individual may need to be confronted and having some kind of plan in place to try to subdue such individuals without deadly force is the best that can be done.

But whatever that plan is, it still may come down to someone being shot and killed.

exactly right...a knife from the kitchen depending upon what type of knife can do a lot of damage quite quickly...once someone moves in on another with a knife it could be difficult to intervene depending upon their mental state.

BlackLeaf posted a BBC program...Madness in the Fast Lane...it was amazing to see two slender woman (who had been hit by cars) with the physical ability to take on multiple police and still escape. It was almost unbelieveable to watch what focused determination can do. One of the women did eventually days later stab a man to death. It was an eye opener.

So once this young woman produced the knife she was a danger to everyone certainly. BUT there are other ways to deal with this other than gun fire if one is trained.

de-escalating someone who is mentally ill...takes a certain approach...you need the training to call upon to do this because once the situation occurs you have to go on instinct and with no skills that could be a disaster as it was here...anyone can do it if they approach it correctly but there are ways to handle such occurrences and some just don't work. It certainly didn't here.

 

[SLM]

Re: Family calls 911 for help with special needs daughter, cops show up & shoot her d

de-escalating someone who is mentally ill...takes a certain approach...you need the training to call upon to do this because once the situation occurs you have to go on instinct and with no skills that could be a disaster as it was here...anyone can do it if they approach it correctly but there are ways to handle such occurrences and some just don't work. It certainly didn't here.

This is exactly what I've been saying for a long time now. In reference to my post yesterday, at one time police did not really have knowledge and skills to deal with domestic situations, but now they do. Knowledge and skill set for dealing with mentally ill individuals can be set up, pre-planning for certain situations and eventualities can be put in place. It won't mean the outcome will be guaranteed, it never is, and deadly force may still need to be used at some times, but a thought out, well planned effort can save some lives, I'm sure of it.

 

[Sal]

Re: Family calls 911 for help with special needs daughter, cops show up & shoot her d

This is exactly what I've been saying for a long time now. In reference to my post yesterday, at one time police did not really have knowledge and skills to deal with domestic situations, but now they do. Knowledge and skill set for dealing with mentally ill individuals can be set up, pre-planning for certain situations and eventualities can be put in place. It won't mean the outcome will be guaranteed, it never is, and deadly force may still need to be used at some times, but a thought out, well planned effort can save some lives, I'm sure of it.

yes, social workers/mental health workers are trained in such ways...even if they had a number of officers trained for that particular type of situation that could go out on such calls it would help

i know I have had a few situations when I was working in not for profit and encountering on a daily basis people with extreme mental health issues and it becomes second nature...you quickly learn what subtle body movements and eye movements indicate. ( and I was in no way deeply trained) You have staff who you can call who know exactly what to do for high de-escalations...and there's a code you can call and all staff come from everywhere in the building in under a minute usually.

I left the company and have done a few call-backs as a favour and first day on the desk a few years ago I had a street person approach me for paper....I asked him if he needed good paper or just some scrap paper...he went off like a rocket...did he look like fuking scrap to me he screamed...he came right at me...it threw me off completely for a few seconds...it's weird how your brain literally scrambles to assess what is happening and it quickly finds the door in the brain to access your training...you conclude super quickly...possible schizophrenic and respond calmly and according to how you have been trained...I thought my fuking heart would come through my chest, your ears literally ring from the adrenaline buzz...lol... if I had been working there daily, it would have ramped up the pulse to alert for danger but I would not have had the type of adrenaline rush I had

so these guys(cops) are trained much more intensely than that for a number of years...which makes me wonder what happened in that situation...is it total panic? I don't quite get it...

I sympathize but it is puzzling.

 

[IdRatherBeSkiing]

Re: Family calls 911 for help with special needs daughter, cops show up & shoot her d

A little more info..

Teen fatally shot in Half Moon Bay by deputy had knife | www.ktvu.com

She had a knife and if the call mentioned that then dispatching police instead of ambulance made perfect sense. But there should be another method for stopping someone with a knife. Rubber bullets? Shoot her in the arm? You would think they train these officers to shoot without killing as a means to subdue ....no?

It is my understanding that this type of situation is what they given tazers for. The least amount of force required to contain the situation. Negotiation by a trained individual may have also diffused the situation.

 

[Sal]

Re: Family calls 911 for help with special needs daughter, cops show up & shoot her d

It is my understanding that this type of situation is what they given tazers for. The least amount of force required to contain the situation. Negotiation by a trained individual may have also diffused the situation.

it is confusing how this could occur

 

[QuebecCanadian]

Re: Family calls 911 for help with special needs daughter, cops show up & shoot her d

Rubber bullets, maybe. Shooting in the arm? No. I know very little about guns and hitting targets, but I do know that is not realistic as a plan of action.

You would think those trained to use firearms for their occupation would be trained on where is NOT a kill zone. It seems to me that there are a lot more of those than fatal areas like head and heart. In fact I think you'd have to be pretty precise to get vital organs. Hell anywhere below the waist. Do they all just go right for the easier head shot?I'm not talking your average Joe. I'm talking professionals trained in firearms. I dunno, seems common sense against a knife.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Re: Family calls 911 for help with special needs daughter, cops show up & shoot her d

It is my understanding that this type of situation is what they given tazers for. The least amount of force required to contain the situation. Negotiation by a trained individual may have also diffused the situation.

Tasers, batons, tiger nets. Shotguns, by the way. QC is right, the "shoot him in the arm" thing is a fantasy and bad doctrine, but shotguns can be loaded with light shot or rubber bullets. We (the U.S. and Canada) seem to have abandoned "minimum force necessary to subdue" in favour of cops fearing for their lives.

 

[SLM]

Re: Family calls 911 for help with special needs daughter, cops show up & shoot her d

You would think those trained to use firearms for their occupation would be trained on where is NOT a kill zone. It seems to me that there are a lot more of those than fatal areas like head and heart. In fact I think you'd have to be pretty precise to get vital organs. Hell anywhere below the waist. Do they all just go right for the easier head shot?I'm not talking your average Joe. I'm talking professionals trained in firearms. I dunno, seems common sense against a knife.

I've never fired a gun, never even held one and am in no way a professional trained in firearms. But it seems to me that hitting a smaller target like legs or arms becomes a very difficult thing to do when they are flailing about as they come directly at you with a knife. Which is why, I believe, the training is to shoot at center mass, not the head but the body.

Also, if you stop and think about it, chances of missing a smaller target like arms is greater because it's small which would then mean bullets are traveling to places where you don't want them too. Such as through walls into the next room/apartments etc and potentially hitting completely innocent people. Stray bullets are exceedingly dangerous and I for one do not want them coming out of police officer's guns.

 

[Sal]

Re: Family calls 911 for help with special needs daughter, cops show up & shoot her d

yeah I would guess center mass is also to protect those around the perp...even if you hit someone it can exit and travel further

not even to mention a shot in some body parts will not stop someone...people can keep going for a long time after being shot

 

[SLM]

Re: Family calls 911 for help with special needs daughter, cops show up & shoot her d

Tasers, batons, tiger nets. Shotguns, by the way. QC is right, the "shoot him in the arm" thing is a fantasy and bad doctrine, but shotguns can be loaded with light shot or rubber bullets. We (the U.S. and Canada) seem to have abandoned "minimum force necessary to subdue" in favour of cops fearing for their lives.

I still think in addition to the equipment a lot of education and work developing skills for verbally subduing individuals would go a long way. Not suggesting that alone would always do the trick but you start with that, you have non lethal equipment to back it up and, in the end, you use lethal force when that doesn't work and it becomes necessary.

 

[JLM]

Re: Family calls 911 for help with special needs daughter, cops show up & shoot her d

the tragic and senseless death of 3 RCMP officers does not white-wash all police

they should not be used as examples of average police, each cop is an individual...some are amazing at their job others not so much and the reasons for that are varied

As in any occupation.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Re: Family calls 911 for help with special needs daughter, cops show up & shoot her d

I still think in addition to the equipment a lot of education and work developing skills for verbally subduing individuals would go a long way. Not suggesting that alone would always do the trick but you start with that, you have non lethal equipment to back it up and, in the end, you use lethal force when that doesn't work and it becomes necessary.

Of course. I was only talking about the "force" part. People trained to defuse situations can do so in many, maybe most of these incidents. Here in D.C. we have Gallaudet University, the world's only uni for the deaf. It took decades of "excessive force" incidents before the MPD finally had a brainwave and trained the officers at the local substation in American Sign Language.

Duh.

 

[Sal]

Re: Family calls 911 for help with special needs daughter, cops show up & shoot her d

As in any occupation.

exactly right!

 

[grumpydigger]

Re: Family calls 911 for help with special needs daughter, cops show up & shoot her d

I would've thought, that a single shot of pepper spray on a small mentally challenged child would have neutralized the situation immediately.
deadly force seems to be used quite often against the mentally disabled as an easy way out. Because the police officer knows any object spoon and fork, staple gun even a small penknife will be accepted as a reasonable grounds for killing the suspect.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Re: Family calls 911 for help with special needs daughter, cops show up & shoot her d

"I hated having to fire, sir. But. . . he had a spoon."

 

[lone wolf]

Re: Family calls 911 for help with special needs daughter, cops show up & shoot her d

Tasers, batons, tiger nets. Shotguns, by the way. QC is right, the "shoot him in the arm" thing is a fantasy and bad doctrine, but shotguns can be loaded with light shot or rubber bullets. We (the U.S. and Canada) seem to have abandoned "minimum force necessary to subdue" in favour of cops fearing for their lives.

You-lie-and-I'll-swear-to-it absolves a lot of wrong-doing

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Re: Family calls 911 for help with special needs daughter, cops show up & shoot her d

You-lie-and-I'll-swear-to-it absolves a lot of wrong-doing

So does having prosecutors who never, ever prosecute killer cops.

 

[lone wolf]

Re: Family calls 911 for help with special needs daughter, cops show up & shoot her d

So does having prosecutors who never, ever prosecute killer cops.

I firmly believe the Church too easily overlooks the fact that one bad cop paints a target on ten good ones

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Re: Family calls 911 for help with special needs daughter, cops show up & shoot her d

I firmly believe the Church too easily overlooks the fact that one bad cop paints a target on ten good ones

Kinda like lawyers. The reputation of all of us is ruined by the 97% who are bad.

 

[SLM]

Re: Family calls 911 for help with special needs daughter, cops show up & shoot her d

I firmly believe the Church too easily overlooks the fact that one bad cop paints a target on ten good ones

It feeds people's prejudices and bias. You know, everyone always says they want the good cops to separate themselves from the bad ones and point to the lack of that as more justification for their prejudices and bias. Honestly, sometimes I look at what people say, the reactions they have and frankly I can't blame them for being on the defensive. Public sentiment particularly after an "incident" is not exactly warm and fuzzy. So you have not only ten good ones with a target but ten good ones with a target and no support except for internally. And round it goes.

Kinda like lawyers. The reputation of all of us is ruined by the 97% who are bad.

There's that sarcasm again, lol.

Do love a good bad lawyer joke though. They're just funny.