When did we abandon the death penalty? 1972? When were women let into universities? When were Aboriginal people given the vote? When did they close the last of the residential schools? Are we talking a matter of degrees of barbarism here? What I'm talking about is it will take 50 - 60 years for them to get to where we are - perhaps kicking and screaming but, none the less, they will get here. The whole world will eventually catch up to us and then the whole world will one big homogenous happy dysfunctional family, so bland we will pray for the good old days.
Iran Renders Verdict on US Hikers.
- Thread starter Ocean Breeze
- Start date
I THINK it was 1976, Cliff as I can remember what I was doing at the time it was announced.
Jeezuz! You are older than me and I can't remember what I did yesterday!
Funny how that works, I have a hard time remembering what I did this morning but have vivid recollection of my first day in school in 1949!
I suppose that means something to you but it is lost on me. I can't for the life of me figure out what that comment means or has to do with what I said.
Greed and selfishness will be the end of us and no doubt toward the end we'll be very dysfunctional and as we get fatter and fatter there will be standing room only in the hospitals.
Only those who have experienced an "N.D.P. wet dream" would! :lol:
When Obama tried to bring them into trials within the States certain right wingers objected because they felt it violated everyone's safety. As always he knuckles under to everything that the right wingers want.
What fair trial did these kids get?
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Unless you do it.
You meant US society right?
But not state policy.
Can you show me where the state has sanctioned lynchings please.
You would be a stellar example.
Those kids were at Gitmo?
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If you want to hear maracas, this would be more entertaining...
Maracas Llaneras Venezolanas (english) - YouTube
Back on topic...
This story and people's reactions is a good litmus test to determine who can and can't think independently. If the US arrested three Iranians near a remote section of the US/Mexico border, how many people here would believe their claims that they were just tourists who accidentally crossed into the US while hiking?
The facts in this case as near as I can determine are:
Iranian authorities arrested three Americans in a remote area along the Iraq/Iran border. They claimed to be hikers who wandered across the border from Iraq accidentally. Iran initially charged them with entering Iran illegally and later charged them with espionage after finding some "compelling evidence". Recently two of the three were convicted of all charges after what AI describes as a "grossly unfair" trial. Their lawyer never had a chance to see or challenge the "compelling evidence" which resulted in their conviction for espionage.
Which side of the unmarked border they were on at the time of the arrest is unclear. Most likely they were a few meters on the Iraqi side, when an Iranian border guard motioned or ordered them onto the Iranian side and arrested them. Its possible they were on either side of the border of the time of their arrest.
All three are Jewish and graduates of University of California Berkley. One has some limited experience as a freelance journalist. Their links to humanitarian organizations are extremely superficial. They participated in some anti-war protests and expressed sentiment against the Afghan and Iraq wars. Two of the three were living in Damascus, Syria. They had no obvious permanent employment, but had money to travel and somehow posted a $500,000 bail for the women, who immediately fled the country and will be tried in absentia.
I am only certain they didn't get a fair trial since they never had a chance to see or challenge the "compelling evidence" against them. Based on the facts, I can't determine the full truth here and I doubt any one else can either.
Moving on to speculation... Iraq's back country is dangerous and not a popular destination for American hikers. Although these people fit the profile of new spooks, the circumstances of their capture indicates its unlikely they were on a spy mission at time. I suspect the Iranians have no proof these three are spies, and their conviction is 100% political. They will be used to bargain for the release Iranian spies detained in the US. The US could get these people released, but they'll have to cut a deal with the Iranians.
However, I don't see the US as having the moral high ground when it comes to treatment of accused spies. People the US has alleged committed acts of terrorism or espionage get the same treatment or worse in the US or at any of the various "black ops" around the world. These people also don't have the right to see and therefore challenge the evidence against them, because it could compromise intelligence gathering. In many cases they are held for years without trial and subjected to torture.
Regarding the way the US treats Iranians accused of spying, consider this case of this Iranian:
Tehran Raps Washington for Depriving Jailed Iranian Woman of Rights
Source: Fars News Agency, TEhran
A senior Iranian Foreign Ministry official called on Washington to issue entry visas for the family of Shahrzad Mir-Qolikhan, an innocent Iranian woman held in the US jails for the last three years, to let them have a meeting with her, and lambasted the US authorities for depriving Shahrzad of her Vienna Convention rights.
"Based on the Vienna Convention, Mrs. Mir-Qolikhan is entitled to certain rights (to have consulate access and meetings with her family), but none of them have yet been materialized," Director-General of the Iranian Foreign Ministry for Iranian Expatriates Nasrollah Tajik told FNA on Saturday.
Tajik referred to the proper behavior Iranian authorities have had with the three US nationals who were arrested by Iran in July 2009 after crossing Iran-Iraq borders illegally, the freedom of Sarah Emily Shourd, one of these three American nationals, and their meetings with their families in Iran, and lamented that the US has failed to provide such facilities for Shahrzad Mir-Qolikhan.
The efforts made by the Iranian foreign ministry officials have just led to the transfer of Shahrzad to another prison after her improper and hard conditions in her previous jail, he explained.
Shahrzad's father told FNA last week that his daughter was sent to a prison in the US state of Oklahoma after more than a month of aggravating conditions in her solitary confinement.
"My daughter had been threatened to death in her former prison several times and suffered from respiratory diseases due to the lack of hygiene and good healthcare," Mir-Qolikhan complained at the time.
Shahrzad was detained in the US in December 2007. Her ex-husband, Mahmoud Seif, had allegedly tried to export night-vision goggles to Iran from Austria.
She was sentenced to five years of imprisonment by a Florida federal court in absentia.
Also earlier, Shahrzad's mother unveiled new details about abuse, torture and cruel treatment of her daughter by the US prison guards and jailors, and stressed that her daughter is held against the law since her retrial in the US violated the international and US laws.
Belqeis Rowshan said in an interview with FNA at the time that her daughter was initially sentenced to 52 days of imprisonment by an Austrian court in 2005 and her case was closed after she served her prison term.
"Again and after a short period, a US court sentenced Shahrzad to five years of imprisonment for the same case, while based on the international laws courts are not allowed to issue two (consecutive) rulings for a single case," Rowshan stated.
"That means that the US action on the case was wrong in essence and they know this," she stressed, reminding that her family attorney also confirm her words.
"Therefore, Shahrzad's detention has been an illegal move and it is now three years that my daughter has been in jail for her attempt to buy a single pair of night-vision goggles," Rowshan explained.
Rowshan further noted the US prison guards' mistreatment of Shahrzad, and said whenever her daughter is allowed to contact the family from the jail, she complains about her jailors' physical and mental tortures and mistreatment.
Also in March, Rowshan said that Shahrzad is suffering from respiratory problems due to the bad healthcare and sanitary conditions at the prison, expressing deep concern about the fate of her daughter.
"Shahrzad, who is suffers respiratory problems as a result of the lack of hygiene and sanitation in the jail was transferred to the prison's clinic last night after her conditions deteriorated," Rowshan told FNA at the time.
The prison accommodating Shahrzad was built in 1938 and is in a very undesirable condition, she mentioned, adding that the molds on prison walls and ceiling have caused respiratory problems for her daughter.
Rowshan also complained about the US officials' indifference to her family's repeated demands for a meeting with Shahrzad at the jail, yet she said that her family members have, nevertheless, sent their passports and related documents to the US authorities to receive a visa for travelling to the US, reiterating that the family would spare no effort to help Shahrzad in any possible way.
In September former Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki said that Tehran has prepared a list of Iranian nationals who are in US jails for false charges, and added that he is closely pursuing the issue.
Speaking to reporters on the sidelines of the 65th session of the UN General Assembly, Mottaki said that the issue of the Iranian captives would be one of the main topics that he would discuss with the UN chief, Ban Ki-moon, during his visit to the UN headquarters.
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad also said in September that the US has recently detained and held eight Iranian nationals illegally and based on false allegations.
President Ahmadinejad said in an interview with the Russian TV that the Iranian captives were arrested in third countries by US agents under "false accusations" and transferred here to US jails.
"This is abduction and does not fit in with any legal system. They (Iranians) had traveled to other countries with official visas but were arrested by Americans," Ahmadinejad stated at the time.
"Americans have not observed the international law. They should review their conduct and allow the detainees to return home."
eao: Although I disagree with the way the US and Iran both treat each other's citizens, I fail to see why Iran should have to meet a higher standard than the US regarding fairness, transparency, treatment or conditions. I expect the US and Iran will cut a deal to release the three American hikers in exchange for the release of Iranian nationals held in US prisons. (which is the most likely reason why these Americans were convicted)
This story and people's reactions is a good litmus test to determine who can and can't think independently. If the US arrested three Iranians near a remote section of the US/Mexico border, how many people here would believe their claims that they were just tourists who accidentally crossed into the US while hiking?
The facts in this case as near as I can determine are:
Iranian authorities arrested three Americans in a remote area along the Iraq/Iran border. They claimed to be hikers who wandered across the border from Iraq accidentally. Iran initially charged them with entering Iran illegally and later charged them with espionage after finding some "compelling evidence". Recently two of the three were convicted of all charges after what AI describes as a "grossly unfair" trial. Their lawyer never had a chance to see or challenge the "compelling evidence" which resulted in their conviction for espionage.
Which side of the unmarked border they were on at the time of the arrest is unclear. Most likely they were a few meters on the Iraqi side, when an Iranian border guard motioned or ordered them onto the Iranian side and arrested them. Its possible they were on either side of the border of the time of their arrest.
All three are Jewish and graduates of University of California Berkley. One has some limited experience as a freelance journalist. Their links to humanitarian organizations are extremely superficial. They participated in some anti-war protests and expressed sentiment against the Afghan and Iraq wars. Two of the three were living in Damascus, Syria. They had no obvious permanent employment, but had money to travel and somehow posted a $500,000 bail for the women, who immediately fled the country and will be tried in absentia.
I am only certain they didn't get a fair trial since they never had a chance to see or challenge the "compelling evidence" against them. Based on the facts, I can't determine the full truth here and I doubt any one else can either.
Moving on to speculation... Iraq's back country is dangerous and not a popular destination for American hikers. Although these people fit the profile of new spooks, the circumstances of their capture indicates its unlikely they were on a spy mission at time. I suspect the Iranians have no proof these three are spies, and their conviction is 100% political. They will be used to bargain for the release Iranian spies detained in the US. The US could get these people released, but they'll have to cut a deal with the Iranians.
However, I don't see the US as having the moral high ground when it comes to treatment of accused spies. People the US has alleged committed acts of terrorism or espionage get the same treatment or worse in the US or at any of the various "black ops" around the world. These people also don't have the right to see and therefore challenge the evidence against them, because it could compromise intelligence gathering. In many cases they are held for years without trial and subjected to torture.
Regarding the way the US treats Iranians accused of spying, consider this case of this Iranian:
Tehran Raps Washington for Depriving Jailed Iranian Woman of Rights
Source: Fars News Agency, TEhran
A senior Iranian Foreign Ministry official called on Washington to issue entry visas for the family of Shahrzad Mir-Qolikhan, an innocent Iranian woman held in the US jails for the last three years, to let them have a meeting with her, and lambasted the US authorities for depriving Shahrzad of her Vienna Convention rights.
"Based on the Vienna Convention, Mrs. Mir-Qolikhan is entitled to certain rights (to have consulate access and meetings with her family), but none of them have yet been materialized," Director-General of the Iranian Foreign Ministry for Iranian Expatriates Nasrollah Tajik told FNA on Saturday.
Tajik referred to the proper behavior Iranian authorities have had with the three US nationals who were arrested by Iran in July 2009 after crossing Iran-Iraq borders illegally, the freedom of Sarah Emily Shourd, one of these three American nationals, and their meetings with their families in Iran, and lamented that the US has failed to provide such facilities for Shahrzad Mir-Qolikhan.
The efforts made by the Iranian foreign ministry officials have just led to the transfer of Shahrzad to another prison after her improper and hard conditions in her previous jail, he explained.
Shahrzad's father told FNA last week that his daughter was sent to a prison in the US state of Oklahoma after more than a month of aggravating conditions in her solitary confinement.
"My daughter had been threatened to death in her former prison several times and suffered from respiratory diseases due to the lack of hygiene and good healthcare," Mir-Qolikhan complained at the time.
Shahrzad was detained in the US in December 2007. Her ex-husband, Mahmoud Seif, had allegedly tried to export night-vision goggles to Iran from Austria.
She was sentenced to five years of imprisonment by a Florida federal court in absentia.
Also earlier, Shahrzad's mother unveiled new details about abuse, torture and cruel treatment of her daughter by the US prison guards and jailors, and stressed that her daughter is held against the law since her retrial in the US violated the international and US laws.
Belqeis Rowshan said in an interview with FNA at the time that her daughter was initially sentenced to 52 days of imprisonment by an Austrian court in 2005 and her case was closed after she served her prison term.
"Again and after a short period, a US court sentenced Shahrzad to five years of imprisonment for the same case, while based on the international laws courts are not allowed to issue two (consecutive) rulings for a single case," Rowshan stated.
"That means that the US action on the case was wrong in essence and they know this," she stressed, reminding that her family attorney also confirm her words.
"Therefore, Shahrzad's detention has been an illegal move and it is now three years that my daughter has been in jail for her attempt to buy a single pair of night-vision goggles," Rowshan explained.
Rowshan further noted the US prison guards' mistreatment of Shahrzad, and said whenever her daughter is allowed to contact the family from the jail, she complains about her jailors' physical and mental tortures and mistreatment.
Also in March, Rowshan said that Shahrzad is suffering from respiratory problems due to the bad healthcare and sanitary conditions at the prison, expressing deep concern about the fate of her daughter.
"Shahrzad, who is suffers respiratory problems as a result of the lack of hygiene and sanitation in the jail was transferred to the prison's clinic last night after her conditions deteriorated," Rowshan told FNA at the time.
The prison accommodating Shahrzad was built in 1938 and is in a very undesirable condition, she mentioned, adding that the molds on prison walls and ceiling have caused respiratory problems for her daughter.
Rowshan also complained about the US officials' indifference to her family's repeated demands for a meeting with Shahrzad at the jail, yet she said that her family members have, nevertheless, sent their passports and related documents to the US authorities to receive a visa for travelling to the US, reiterating that the family would spare no effort to help Shahrzad in any possible way.
In September former Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki said that Tehran has prepared a list of Iranian nationals who are in US jails for false charges, and added that he is closely pursuing the issue.
Speaking to reporters on the sidelines of the 65th session of the UN General Assembly, Mottaki said that the issue of the Iranian captives would be one of the main topics that he would discuss with the UN chief, Ban Ki-moon, during his visit to the UN headquarters.
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad also said in September that the US has recently detained and held eight Iranian nationals illegally and based on false allegations.
President Ahmadinejad said in an interview with the Russian TV that the Iranian captives were arrested in third countries by US agents under "false accusations" and transferred here to US jails.
"This is abduction and does not fit in with any legal system. They (Iranians) had traveled to other countries with official visas but were arrested by Americans," Ahmadinejad stated at the time.
"Americans have not observed the international law. They should review their conduct and allow the detainees to return home."
eao: Although I disagree with the way the US and Iran both treat each other's citizens, I fail to see why Iran should have to meet a higher standard than the US regarding fairness, transparency, treatment or conditions. I expect the US and Iran will cut a deal to release the three American hikers in exchange for the release of Iranian nationals held in US prisons. (which is the most likely reason why these Americans were convicted)
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Being from the University of California Berkley campus says a lot of why these morons chose to hike in Iraq near the Iranian border. I think it is important for them to spend a good deal of time in Iran then go back to Berkley.
Isn't he the President? He had two years to close it down without any GOP interference. He can STILL close it down. Where is the US Liberal outrage? What happened to the order he signed?
There is a difference in trying to export 3500 sets of night vision goggles to Iran and just crossing a border>>>>
The Iranian government thinks otherwise.
These Americans got 3 years for entering the country illegally and 5 years for espionage.
While I have doubts as to whether these three were spies, there can be no doubt the US has conducted covert operations against Iran:
Also there can be no doubt that some of these operations were directed at civilians with lethal consequences:
Like I said I have no idea whether these three were spies or not. But the Iranian government and their criminal justice system, flawed as it is, officially decided they are spies. If they thought these three had anything to do with the above murders and sabotage, they'd be facing the death penalty. Instead one was allowed free on bail and fled while the other two got 8 years. I'm fairly certain that if the US government was willing to cut a deal with their counterparts in Iran, these two would be released.
BTW, the conditions of the Iranian prison and treatment of alleged/convicted spies by Iranian authorities is far better than those suffered by alleged/convicted Iranian spies held by US authorities in the dungeons around the world.
These three all said they have been well treated. The woman changed her story once she got back to the US. I listened to her description of ill treatment and it sounded like one guard was an idiot and assaulted one of the men causing a laceration. But their treatment did not include sleep deprivation, mind altering drugs, repeated beatings, water boarding or being shackled in painful positions for days at a time, as has been reported by detainees at Gitmo, Bagram and other black op detention facilities.
These Americans got 3 years for entering the country illegally and 5 years for espionage.
While I have doubts as to whether these three were spies, there can be no doubt the US has conducted covert operations against Iran:
Read more The Bush Administration’s operations in Iran : The New Yorker
Also there can be no doubt that some of these operations were directed at civilians with lethal consequences:
Attack on Iranian nuclear scientists prompts hit squad claims | World news | The Guardian
Like I said I have no idea whether these three were spies or not. But the Iranian government and their criminal justice system, flawed as it is, officially decided they are spies. If they thought these three had anything to do with the above murders and sabotage, they'd be facing the death penalty. Instead one was allowed free on bail and fled while the other two got 8 years. I'm fairly certain that if the US government was willing to cut a deal with their counterparts in Iran, these two would be released.
BTW, the conditions of the Iranian prison and treatment of alleged/convicted spies by Iranian authorities is far better than those suffered by alleged/convicted Iranian spies held by US authorities in the dungeons around the world.
These three all said they have been well treated. The woman changed her story once she got back to the US. I listened to her description of ill treatment and it sounded like one guard was an idiot and assaulted one of the men causing a laceration. But their treatment did not include sleep deprivation, mind altering drugs, repeated beatings, water boarding or being shackled in painful positions for days at a time, as has been reported by detainees at Gitmo, Bagram and other black op detention facilities.
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That's why you have me, RCS and DaS pointing at you.
Why do you cry about personalizations in posts? You doing it to, makes you an incredible hypocrite.
You should probably read up on that, using something other than wiki. That way your posts wouldn't look so stupid.
Here, contact these anti free speech types. You and them have a lot in common.
There you go assuming again.
And here comes the excuses...
What does their religion have to do with anything?
They didn't post the bail, her parents did.
Fattal, Worked for the International Honors Program, an educational group. He specialized in health.
Bauer, Is a free lance journalist/photographer, who contributes regularly to three left leaning publications.
Stop making things up to support your excuses for the ignorance of Islamic nations.
It was easy. But I don't have a biased agenda.
Moving on? Your whole post so far has been nothing but.
It's a listed tourist destination. The Iraq Kurdish area in question has no reports of violence.
You base that on what? The fact that they were jewish, or the rest of the lies you posted?
The get jailed, then deported, after a fair trial.
Excuses excuses excuses. I thought you just simply condemned wrong doings?
This post is fill with your usual falsehoods and excuses for bad behavior.
You won't get both sides of the story by listening to one side. I pay attention to Fox and Sun and just like Fars, Pravda, Xinhua, I consider the source.
For journalistic integrity I'd rate al Jazeera as similar to the BBC and the radio version of CBC news and documentaries. Al Jazeera's coverage of the events in Tahrir Square during the Egyptian uprising was second to none for real time accuracy. Even Barak Obama followed the revolt on al Jazeera.
Al Jazeera On Obama White House TV
Back on subject... The US now has to either cut a deal with the Iranians to release these Americans or let them continue living as guests of the Iranian penal system. My money is riding on a deal with a year.
If you're so objective and well informed. How come I found and pointed out so many errors in your conclusions?