New Quebec group takes militant stance on sovereignty

[s_lone]

Both separatist movements stem from a belief that they are "culturally distinct" from the rest of Canada. Which is a really dumb reason. So is Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Newfoundland and Labrador, Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan, British Columbia, Northwest Territories, Yukon, and Nunavut.

Heck, there's cultural differences between Cape Breton and Southwest Nova Scotia, between Grand Manan and Moncton, between Newfoundland and Labrador. There`s cultural differences between cities, within cities.

Separatists are just whiny little brats, that can`t stand it when things don`t go there own way.

Of all people (I have no doubts about the quality of your intelligence), I'm surprised even you fall for this type of gross generalization. Do you realize how easy it is to mirror back insults to the rest of Canada? Especially if I base myself on the comments of this thread.

Perhaps when even the best of you stop viewing the separatist movement in Quebec as a kindergarden whining session, the best of Quebec nationalists will stop viewing Canada as an outside ruler and threat.

The separatist movement doesn't stem from a ''belief'' about cultural distinctness. It stems from deep historical reasons. The original ''Canadiens'' were a conquered people and for a bunch of complex reasons, their annexation to British rule was a half failure or success depending on how you want to see it. Failure because nearly half of Quebecers wanted to leave in 1995... Success because well... we're still here aren't we?

All I'm saying is that it's a complex issue and name calling and generalizations usually don't help in creating a positive dialogue.

 

[Tonington]

Perhaps when even the best of you stop viewing the separatist movement in Quebec as a kindergarden whining session, the best of Quebec nationalists will stop viewing Canada as an outside ruler and threat.

Well when they stop whining about things not going their way, then I'll stop referring to them as whiners. Democracy doesn't mean that every identifiable group gets everything they want.

The separatist movement doesn't stem from a ''belief'' about cultural distinctness.

Whatever. At every single step the separatists have emphasized the cultural distinctions between Quebec and the rest of Canada.
Insisting on being called a distinct society/nation within Canada...that's quite explicit. You can dress it up by calling it historical reasons, but those historical reasons still stem from cultural differences.

The nutbars on FreeAlberta.com make the same arguments, that they are culturally distinct from the rest of Canada. They even emphasize the history of settlement in Alberta.

All I'm saying is that it's a complex issue and name calling and generalizations usually don't help in creating a positive dialogue.

What is positive about causing rifts between Canadians by threatening to leave if demands are not met? What is positive about emphasizing differences first, and ignoring commonalities?

Where I come from, a spade is called a spade.

 

[wulfie68]

OK Tonington, you got me there: I forgot Kessler was as a protest vote, elected in a by-election at the time when ant-Ottawa sentiment was at its highest, thanks to Trudeau and the NEP. That's only one of the litany of actions, a minor one, that Quebec has inflicted on the rest of the country, in contrast to El Barto's statement about the number of radicals in other parts of the country. We could point to Newfoundland's seperatist sentiment as well, after all their premier, Danny Williams, publicly mused about the possibility at one time, but the reality is no where else in Canada has tried to put as much strain on the federation as Quebecers. I really wonder if we'd all be better off if the Brits had taken a harder line after Wolfe defeated Montcalm...

 

[s_lone]

Well when they stop whining about things not going their way, then I'll stop referring to them as whiners. Democracy doesn't mean that every identifiable group gets everything they want.

Fair enough. I guess you should also be calling Liberals and NPD supporters whiners too since they're obviously not getting everything they want with the Harper government these days... It seems to me that democracy means that every group gets to at least express what they want. I don't see any difference between a vocal separatist and a vocal ecologist. Both are fighting for a cause they believe in. You don't have to agree with everyone. But you also don't have to condescend them.

Whatever. At every single step the separatists have emphasized the cultural distinctions between Quebec and the rest of Canada.
Insisting on being called a distinct society/nation within Canada...that's quite explicit. You can dress it up by calling it historical reasons, but those historical reasons still stem from cultural differences.

There's no dressing up. Things are as they are and it's a fact that Quebecers have a problem with identifying to Canada. Manitoba may be culturally different from Saskatchewan, but last thing I heard, both don't question their identification to the country of Canada.

The nutbars on FreeAlberta.com make the same arguments, that they are culturally distinct from the rest of Canada. They even emphasize the history of settlement in Alberta.

And because they are separatists, they are automatically nutbars? How does that follow? Are you so fanatical about Canada as to believe it should be left intact no matter what?

What is positive about causing rifts between Canadians by threatening to leave if demands are not met? What is positive about emphasizing differences first, and ignoring commonalities?

In the end, there have been two attempts at separation. And both failed and were democratic. Is that what you base yourself on to say that Quebecers are always threatening to leave?

Emphasizing differences need not be to the expense of commonalities. Does one ignore commonalities when one say it would be a bad idea to annex Canada to the US?

Where I come from, a spade is called a spade.

A spade is a spade where I come from too. And a nationalist movement is a nationalist movement (not a bunch of whiny obsessed radicals), with all the complexity that goes with the description of such a social phenomenon.

 

[lone wolf]

The separatist movement doesn't stem from a ''belief'' about cultural distinctness. It stems from deep historical reasons. The original ''Canadiens'' were a conquered people and for a bunch of complex reasons, their annexation to British rule was a half failure or success depending on how you want to see it. Failure because nearly half of Quebecers wanted to leave in 1995... Success because well... we're still here aren't we?

All I'm saying is that it's a complex issue and name calling and generalizations usually don't help in creating a positive dialogue.

Conquered just doesn't cut it. If Quebec was treated like other British war trophies, Quebec would be English-speaking and worshiping in an Anglican Church. Sometimes, one just can't be nice.

 

[s_lone]

Conquered just doesn't cut it. If Quebec was treated like other British war trophies, Quebec would be English-speaking and worshiping in an Anglican Church. Sometimes, one just can't be nice.

You think the English were nice to the Canadiens out of good nature? That they arbitrarily decided to be nice to the Canadiens while being asses to the Acadians a few years before or to the Irish in Ireland?

The Canadiens were conquered but the English strategically chose to be ''nice'' out of necessity.

 

[lone wolf]

You think the English were nice to the Canadiens out of good nature? That they arbitrarily decided to be nice to the Canadiens while being asses to the Acadians a few years before or to the Irish in Ireland?

The Canadiens were conquered but the English strategically chose to be ''nice'' out of necessity.

From what I understand, it was more of gratitude than good nature. With some folks, the more they get, the more they demand.

 

[Tonington]

Fair enough. I guess you should also be calling Liberals and NPD supporters whiners too since they're obviously not getting everything they want with the Harper government these days.

Well, the definition of whine is to complain in a childish fashion. NDP, Liberal, Conservatives, they don't threaten to leave and never come back if the rest in the sand box don't play as they wish.

There's no dressing up. Things are as they are and it's a fact that Quebecers have a problem with identifying to Canada.

Yes, that was my point. You're affirming that separatism is based in cultural distinctions. Which we all have, intra-country, intra-province, intra-region even...

And because they are separatists, they are automatically nutbars?

No, they're nutbars because of the things they write. Go have a look at their website, read what they have published.

In the end, there have been two attempts at separation. And both failed and were democratic. Is that what you base yourself on to say that Quebecers are always threatening to leave?

The Bloc hand doesn't move far from the big red button on the console.

Emphasizing differences need not be to the expense of commonalities.

I know that...tell it to the separatists.

A spade is a spade where I come from too. And a nationalist movement is a nationalist movement (not a bunch of whiny obsessed radicals), with all the complexity that goes with the description of such a social phenomenon.

As I think I've made clear, I'm not calling them whiners because they are a Nationalist movement. It's the manner in which they choose to operate that to me makes them worthy of the moniker.

 

[DaSleeper]

I keep hearing that nearly half of the population in Quebec wanted to separate in '95....
Since only 41% of those of age to vote did in fact vote.....
The politically correct;-) way to term it would be that that nearly half of those who went to vote did....cause I have little doubt that the "Separatists" voted en masse while on the other side there were a few more who didn't because they were simply complacent and didn't bother...
I'm sure they wouldn't be so complacent to-day.

 

[s_lone]

I keep hearing that nearly half of the population in Quebec wanted to separate in '95....
Since only 41% of those of age to vote did in fact vote.....
The politically correct;-) way to term it would be that that nearly half of those who went to vote did....cause I have little doubt that the "Separatists" voted en masse while on the other side there were a few more who didn't because they were simply complacent and didn't bother...
I'm sure they wouldn't be so complacent to-day.

Where do you get your numbers?

The participation rate of the 1995 referendum was 93,52%.

Quebec independence referendum, 1995 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Well, the definition of whine is to complain in a childish fashion. NDP, Liberal, Conservatives, they don't threaten to leave and never come back if the rest in the sand box don't play as they wish.

Separatists don't ''threaten'' to leave. They WANT to leave. But they want to do it democratically. And as long as they are a part of Canada, they'll be vocal about what they want, as all other Canadian citizens.

Yes, that was my point. You're affirming that separatism is based in cultural distinctions. Which we all have, intra-country, intra-province, intra-region even...

I agree cultural differences are everywhere at every level. But the difference between PEI and Nova Scotia is irrelevant in this debate if the citizens of both provinces don't question their Canadian identity. What I'm saying is that a good portion of Quebecers don't identify to Canada and that is a good part of the explanation as to why there is a separatist movement.

Clearly there are cultural differences between Texas and the state of New York. But so long as Texans and New Yorkers feel ''American'' (in the US meaning of the word), there differences are relatively irrelevant if we're going to discuss national unity.

In Quebec's case, the problem is that the cultural difference goes as far as feeling a different sense of national identity. It's not about believing you're different or not. It's just how it is. You can't convince a Scott to be British. Or a Catalan to be Spanish. Despite the official state of geopolitical affairs.

No, they're nutbars because of the things they write. Go have a look at their website, read what they have published.

I'll have a look when I have a bit more time. Despite them being separatists, what would you say is your biggest issue with let's say the PQ?

The Bloc hand doesn't move far from the big red button on the console.

Yet the Bloc is extremely respectful of Canadian democracy. It has followed all the rules since its beginning.

As I think I've made clear, I'm not calling them whiners because they are a Nationalist movement. It's the manner in which they choose to operate that to me makes them worthy of the moniker.

I can see your point. But I think you're doing yourself a disfavour in putting all separatists in the same basket. It's a complex political issue, and you'll be lucky if you can find two separatists who can agree on how to achieve separation or even agree on basic political issues. The PQ is known in Quebec to be extremely hard to manage (for its leadership) because it is a mix of people from all parts of the political spectrum. What they all have in common is the desire for Quebec to be an independent country, but beyond that is a heck of a lot of quarrelling and disagreement.

 

[CDNBear]

Heh heh I was going to troll this sucker up but damn, no need.

Ditto

 

[DaSleeper]

Where do you get your numbers?

The participation rate of the 1995 referendum was 93,52%.

You're absolutely right.....I misread the 41% voting PQ to mean the percentage of voters, while it meant that adding the no votes and spoiled ballots 41% voted to separate..
Too much nooki Oops I mean Wiki will do that to ya;-)

 

[Ralph B]

Even better if we can put them all on a boat and sail them back to France.

What happens when they get sent back???
They can't even speak the language!! The Queerbec french is a farce of slang. Sorry there are some good people there, but truth is truth! the supposed french spoken in varrious parts of Montreal even the workers say when a Frenchman comes from france they have difficulty communicating. You have a__holes thoughout this country, just there they are louder and get more attention! stop the BS and deal with real issues forget this small distraction from letting the politicians do as they please! JUST ANOTHER SMOKE SCREEN!!

 

[El Barto]

Have you heard the european french lately?
Almost every noun is an english word...... le weekend
le parking.
le pullover
Changing the name to Queerbec shows your ignorance.
Bear when he says Kebec , that he is using the original spelling and the original indian name .

 

[gerryh]

Changing the name to Queerbec shows your ignorance.
.

It not only shows his ignorance and bigotry towards Quebec, it also shows his ignorance, bigotry, and homophobic tendency's towards Gays.

 

[Cannuck]

It not only shows his ignorance and bigotry towards Quebec, it also shows his ignorance, bigotry, and homophobic tendency's towards Gays.

When did the gay community copyright the word queer?

 

[El Barto]

When did the gay community copyright the word queer?

It was implied , the copyright issue is for lawyers,,,

 

[Cannuck]

It was implied

Perhaps it was simply implied that Kweebecers (note Preston Manning stab) are odd. As somebody with lots of family there, I can definitely buy that.

 

[lone wolf]

I thought Porter left....

 

[El Barto]

Perhaps it was simply implied that Kweebecers (note Preston Manning stab) are odd. As somebody with lots of family there, I can definitely buy that.

Then the arguement for them being odd would express that there's a will or a want for conformity with a lack of view of diversity and s piraling path to bigotry...........no?