Afghan election hypocrisy

[earth_as_one]

Anyone else notice this hypocrisy?

Recent Afghan elections have been exposed as fraudulent. That's a fact not a suspicion.

No Western fudge can fix the mounting Afghanistan election crisis - Times Online

Where is all the twitter buzz? Where are all the calls for sanctions?

Not so long ago, western leaders condemned Iran for holding allegedly fraudulent elections, which were never backed up by any evidence. Western media and states hostile to Iran used the internet and other means to generate internal dissent and encourage protests. As a result, hundreds of people were killed and injured. I've still never seen any conclusive evidence that Iran's elections were fraudulent, unlike Afghanistan where the evidence is pretty overwhelming.

Not saying Iran's elections were free or fair, but the way the world's leaders and our media have acted exposes our blatant hypocrisy.

 

[Lou Garu]

Hiya Earth,
Keep in mind though, that the Iranians kept very close control on the media , I believe even the BBC was tossed out. The world was pretty much reduced to faceboot/twitter/u-tube reports by people with sporadic internet connections.Kinda hard to draw a impartial conclusion.

 

[earth_as_one]

Fair criticism. But please explain the difference in levels of media hype. My point was to point out that most news isn't in fact news, but biased manipulative misinformation.

In the case of Iran, unproven news/media allegations regarding their suspicious elections were intended to destabilize Iran and create a perception that Iran's democracy is fixed and corrupt. That perception may or may not be true.

In the case of Afghanistan, the election has been proven a sham. A small number of Afghans participated and the election was compromised by ballot box stuffing, ballot box swapping, ineligible voters and many other irregularities in support of the West's favored candidate. Yet besides a few initial stories, hardly a peep from our "news".

Canada's main purpose in Afghanistan was to help turn this country into a stable democracy. How does not properly reporting Afghanistan's election fraud contribute toward our goals?

 

[Lou Garu]

Fair criticism. But please explain the difference in levels of media hype. My point was to point out that most news isn't in fact news, but biased manipulative misinformation.

This is news?

In the case of Iran, unproven news/media allegations regarding their suspicious elections were intended to destabilize Iran and create a perception that Iran's democracy is fixed and corrupt. That perception may or may not be true.

I'm biased on this one,I knew too many people from Iran. And most of the reports I heard where of the "he said they said " variety , so I tend to believe the worst of the political/religious bunch there,( and how do you think the Boston Tea Party was reported?)

In the case of Afghanistan, the election has been proven a sham. A small number of Afghans participated and the election was compromised by ballot box stuffing, ballot box swapping, ineligible voters and many other irregularities in support of the West's favored candidate. Yet besides a few initial stories, hardly a peep from our "news".

Different situation , Lots of reporters ,that way spin can be managed by both sides
You see a sham, I see a small step to democracy, and until education is higher ( by both genders ) and it will stay like that until the Govt is stronger ,till tribelism is weakened.

Canada's main purpose in Afghanistan was to help turn this country into a stable democracy. How does not properly reporting Afghanistan's election fraud contribute toward our goals?

Come, come , you've been in the forum as long ( if not longer ) than I have. Has pointing out other peoples at the top of their lungs aided THIS place?

This isn't intended to be negative Earth, just different perspectives

 

[Downhome_Woman]

Anyone else notice this hypocrisy?

Recent Afghan elections have been exposed as fraudulent. That's a fact not a suspicion.

No Western fudge can fix the mounting Afghanistan election crisis - Times Online

Where is all the twitter buzz? Where are all the calls for sanctions?

Not so long ago, western leaders condemned Iran for holding allegedly fraudulent elections, which were never backed up by any evidence. Western media and states hostile to Iran used the internet and other means to generate internal dissent and encourage protests. As a result, hundreds of people were killed and injured. I've still never seen any conclusive evidence that Iran's elections were fraudulent, unlike Afghanistan where the evidence is pretty overwhelming.

Not saying Iran's elections were free or fair, but the way the world's leaders and our media have acted exposes our blatant hypocrisy.

So let me get this right - all those people who were protesting were mindless automatons. They were merely reacting to what they were told on YouTube and the Internet and nothing else. the ones who were in the closet (oops! Iran says that they have absolutely NO homosexuals!!) weren't protesting in their own way. the women who wanted to live their lives without a government telling them what they have to wear or do - weren't protesting. No. All those thousands of people were a great gathering of village idiots, brought together by some freakish subliminal message sent by the American Frankenstein. Yup. that's what it has to be.
sorry - Afghanistan elections? Corruption - no doubt. but if you want to believe that the Iranian elections were any more 'honest'? You're just as delusional as the protesting Iranians you complain about.

 

[Lou Garu]

Hi DownHome
Actually , Earth and I were comparing the news coverage of events in Iran with the news coverage in Afganistan and commenting on the apparent causes of the muted response of either events.
The media *was* managed (the Iranians do enjoy a technical/educational unmatched by their closest neighbors, they are not backwoods people) sat links were down ,stations controlled, internet was largely blocked ,so it's not inconceivable that they *did* manage some sort of communication (hackers are everywhere ).

As far as the rest.....the events moved too quickly and the repression severe and until the mullas and the politicians lose their stranglehold ,this kind of situation will continue.

shalom shalom

 

[einmensch]

Hiya Earth,
Keep in mind though, that the Iranians kept very close control on the media , I believe even the BBC was tossed out. The world was pretty much reduced to faceboot/twitter/u-tube reports by people with sporadic internet connections.Kinda hard to draw a impartial conclusion.

Now here is a guy that doesn't even know what election ---GIVE him a recommend

 

[earth_as_one]

So let me get this right - all those people who were protesting were mindless automatons. They were merely reacting to what they were told on YouTube and the Internet and nothing else. the ones who were in the closet (oops! Iran says that they have absolutely NO homosexuals!!) weren't protesting in their own way. the women who wanted to live their lives without a government telling them what they have to wear or do - weren't protesting. No. All those thousands of people were a great gathering of village idiots, brought together by some freakish subliminal message sent by the American Frankenstein. Yup. that's what it has to be.
sorry - Afghanistan elections? Corruption - no doubt. but if you want to believe that the Iranian elections were any more 'honest'? You're just as delusional as the protesting Iranians you complain about.

That's not what I said. Lots of Iranians have good reasons to protest Iran's elections and/or their oppressive government. But unlike the Afghan elections, there's no conclusive proof the Iran's elections were fraudulent, just highly suspicious circumstancial evidence.

My point was to point out how differently our news leaders have reacted to these two "questionable" elections .

I believe that western media and intelligence services exploited Iran's suspicious election results in an effort to destabilize Iran. As a result lots of people died and were jailed and nothing changed as a result. Seems rather pointless. I have no problem with our news reporting the suspicious results, but I completely disagree with western news and spy agencies attempting to incite revolt by flooding Iran with destabilizing propaganda.

The evidence for this accusation is summarized here:
 Are the Iranian Election Protests Another US Orchestrated ‘Color Revolution’?     : Information Clearing House - ICH

Meanwhile, our news and leaders remain pretty tight lipped about clear and convincing evidence of election fraud in Afghanistan.
New evidence of widespread fraud in Afghanistan election uncovered | World news | The Guardian

We aren't talking about suspicions like Iran's elections. Aren't allegations and evidence of Afghanistan election fraud equally deserving of the same level of media coverage as Iran's suspicious elections?

It looks like Karzai will win Afghanistan's blatantly fraudulent election. I don't see how this helps our cause in Afghanistan. The Afghan people might not be as sophisticated as we are, but I bet they are sophisicated enough to recognize election fraud. If Canada doesn't use our influence and presence in Afghanistan to push for free and fair elections, then we are hypocrites.

Why are we in Afghanistan again? Is it to help fix their elections in favor of candidates we like are are we truly interested in Afghanistan becoming a stable democracy?

 

[Lou Garu]

Now here is a guy that doesn't even know what election ---GIVE him a recommend

Please continue

 

[EagleSmack]

Not so long ago, western leaders condemned Iran for holding allegedly fraudulent elections, which were never backed up by any evidence. .

Sure it was but the evidence that was brought forward was probably viewed by you as CIA propaganda.

Hypocrites you say?

 

[earth_as_one]

Are you going to tell me the case for election fraud is the same for Iran as it is for Afghanistan?

Evidence that Iran's elections results were fraudulent:

1) Election results varied significantly from pre-election polls by a statistically significant amount. (similar to the American Dewey vs Truman election.)
2) Handcounted elections results which came faster than expected.
3) Results showed unusual uniformity across provinces rather than the usual statistical variations according to western experts.
4) Election counts lacked randomness and exhibited patterns associated with human generated random numbers according to western experts.

I would categorize the above as highly suspicious and circumstancial, but not conclusive.

Evidence I saw that Afghanistan's elections were fraudulent

1) Large numbers of underage children registered as voters
2) Evidence of ballot box stuffing and tampering.
3) Evidence of ballot box swapping.
4) Ballot boxes filled with identical ballots all voting for the same candidate
5) Ballot sheets still stuck together the same way they were printed all marked for the same candidate exactly the same way.
6) Ballots found dumped on the side of the road.
7) Photographic evidence of people filling out multiple ballots
8) Photographic evidence of people with multiple election id cards
9) People bragging they voted dozens and hundreds of times
10) Evidence of vote buying, and bidding wars for votes
and so on.

I'd rate the above evidence as conclusive.

But ES, if you have some conclusive evidence that Iran's elections were fraudulent, please share...

 

[Liberalman]

Canada's soldiers giving their lives for cheaters

 

[earth_as_one]

Not yet Liberalman. No one has won the election yet and a committee is trying to sort the mess out. Personally, I don't think Afghanistan's election is salvageable.

 

[earth_as_one]

Now its over.

Harper congratulates Karzai on controversial election win
http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/article/720027--harper-congratulates-karzai-on-controversial-election-win

President Obama has congratulated Afghan President Hamid Karzai on winning re-election but also called for a “new chapter” to improve Afghan governance and end corruption.
Media-Newswire.com - Press Release Distribution - PR Agency

Nothing controversial about this election. Karzai won by fraud. As a benificiary of election fraud, why would Karzai want to clean up a corrupt system which will always result in his winning fraudulent elections and then having people like Harper and Obama phoning him up and congratulating him?

So why are Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan again?

 

[Spade]

So why are Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan again?

God only knows!

 

[Colpy]

Anyone else notice this hypocrisy?

Recent Afghan elections have been exposed as fraudulent. That's a fact not a suspicion.

No Western fudge can fix the mounting Afghanistan election crisis - Times Online

Where is all the twitter buzz? Where are all the calls for sanctions?

Not so long ago, western leaders condemned Iran for holding allegedly fraudulent elections, which were never backed up by any evidence. Western media and states hostile to Iran used the internet and other means to generate internal dissent and encourage protests. As a result, hundreds of people were killed and injured. I've still never seen any conclusive evidence that Iran's elections were fraudulent, unlike Afghanistan where the evidence is pretty overwhelming.

Not saying Iran's elections were free or fair, but the way the world's leaders and our media have acted exposes our blatant hypocrisy.

Get Real, EAO.....I started this thread expecting to be able to commit to that rarest of occurances....I expected to agree with you.

But NOOOOOOOOOO, you had to go off on some frantic rant about the horrible actions of the west as they lie about nice, sweet, upstanding Iran and their electoral system........

Get it straight....BOTH elections were frauds.

 

[Nuggler]

Anyone else notice this hypocrisy?

Recent Afghan elections have been exposed as fraudulent. That's a fact not a suspicion.

No Western fudge can fix the mounting Afghanistan election crisis - Times Online

Where is all the twitter buzz? Where are all the calls for sanctions?

Not so long ago, western leaders condemned Iran for holding allegedly fraudulent elections, which were never backed up by any evidence. Western media and states hostile to Iran used the internet and other means to generate internal dissent and encourage protests. As a result, hundreds of people were killed and injured. I've still never seen any conclusive evidence that Iran's elections were fraudulent, unlike Afghanistan where the evidence is pretty overwhelming.

Not saying Iran's elections were free or fair, but the way the world's leaders and our media have acted exposes our blatant hypocrisy.

I think most people are aware of the fraud and hypocrisy.

It's what we have come to expect in elections at home and abroad. The winner in the latest Afghanistan Mafia experiment, simply kills any opponents. He wins.

Canadian soldiers dying to protect the opium traffic. Should make us proud. Oh yes.:angryfire:

 

[Spade]

Soldiers should leave Afghanistan now, military journalist says

 

[earth_as_one]

Get Real, EAO.....I started this thread expecting to be able to commit to that rarest of occurances....I expected to agree with you.

But NOOOOOOOOOO, you had to go off on some frantic rant about the horrible actions of the west as they lie about nice, sweet, upstanding Iran and their electoral system........

Get it straight....BOTH elections were frauds.

Previously I challenged you to reference evidence that Iran's elections were fraudulent. I was hoping that your opinion might actually be based on the "evidence" rather that demonizing propaganda. You said this:

Fer Cryin' Out Loud EAO....by definintion Iranian elections are fixed! Every candidate must be vetted by the Guardian Council.....made up of 6 clerics and 6 jurists charged with the enforcement of Sharia law.

No need for stuffed ballot boxes or hanging chads.......

And even AL GORE conceded the US 2000 election.

It is posts like this that truely reveal the depth of your...........the word than insistently springs to mind is insanity. I don't mean to be insulting, but dammit man, your obsession, and your bias, ares simply over the edge.

From you answer, I can't prove conclusively that you know little more than what your idiot box tells you, but it certainly appears that way.

Here is the "evidence" regarding Iran's election:

1) Election results varied significantly from pre-election polls by a statistically significant amount. (similar to the American Dewey vs Truman election.)
2) Handcounted elections results which came faster than expected.
3) Results showed unusual uniformity across provinces rather than the usual statistical variations according to western experts.
4) Election counts lacked randomness and exhibited patterns associated with human generated random numbers according to western experts.

In other words, circumstancial, not conclusive.

Circumstantial evidence is indirect evidence which leads to, but does not prove as specific conclusion.

Conclusive evidence is preponderant evidence that may not be disputed and must be accepted as a definitive proof of a fact.

On the other hand, the evidence that Afghanistan's elections were fraudulent were conclusive:

1) Large numbers of underage children registered as voters
2) Evidence of ballot box stuffing and tampering.
3) Evidence of ballot box swapping.
4) Ballot boxes filled with identical ballots all voting for the same candidate
5) Ballot sheets still stuck together the same way they were printed all marked for the same candidate exactly the same way.
6) Ballots found dumped on the side of the road.
7) Photographic evidence of people filling out multiple ballots
8 )Photographic evidence of people with multiple election id cards
9) People bragging they voted dozens and hundreds of times
10) Evidence of vote buying, and bidding wars for votes

I'm not saying that Iran's elections were free and fair. The evidence doesn't support that conclusion either. Iran's elections were suspicious and may have been fraudulent. Afghanistan's elections on the other hand were conclusive proven fraudulent.

PM Harper, President Obama and nearly every western leader congratulated Karzai on his fraudulent election victory. What a load of BS! These people just demonstrated their true colors. They don't care about the will of the people. I expected as much from Harper, but I had higher hopes for Obama.

The fraudulent Afghan election was a missed opportunity to prove that Western intervention in Afghanistan is about helping Afghans achieve true democracy. The correct action would have been to say the elections were compromised to the point that no one could be declared a winner, clean up Aghanistan's electoral system and hold another election next spring.

Instead our leaders chose the short term gain for longterm pain.

Karzai was not democratically elected. That makes him a dictator. The only reason why Western Leaders recognize his illegitimate government is that he represents Western interests. In the longterm, this fraud will work against the West.

Most Afghans may be illiterate, but that doesn't mean they are idiots. They know they were cheated by Karzai. Most knew their election was fraudulent at the time it happened, which is why so few of them participated. After seeing how eager the west was to support their puppet dictator, I doubt many will participate in next election. Now these people can only have a voice by picking up a gun or strapping on explosives.

We blew it big time!

I don't see the point in sticking around now. Why are we there? Was this mission really about creating a sham democracy and installing a pro-west dictator?? That's where we are now, which is why this war is a now a lost cause.

How many Canadian soldiers should we sacrifice in support of Dictator Karzai?

At some point, we must cut our losses. I used to support this mission when I truly believed Canada was there to make a difference. Nowits clear our leaders are no more interested in bringing democracy to Afghanistan than the Taliban.

As of now, I no longer support this mission. The sooner we get out, the better.

 

[earth_as_one]

More news:

Afghanistan, Iraq among the world's most corrupt
By KIRSTEN GRIESHABER (AP) – 2 hours ago
BERLIN — Afghanistan and Iraq, countries that receive billions of dollars a year in international support, are among the world's most corrupt nations, a watchdog group said in a report released Tuesday.
Lawless Somalia remained the world's most corrupt country, followed by Afghanistan, Myanmar, Sudan and Iraq, Transparency International said in its annual Corruption Perceptions Index.
Singapore, Denmark and New Zealand were the most principled countries around the globe, it said.
"The results demonstrate that countries which are perceived as the most corrupt are also those plagued by long-standing conflicts, which have torn their governance infrastructure," the report said.
The ranking measures perceived levels of public sector corruption in 180 countries and draws on surveys of businesses and experts.

The Associated Press: Afghanistan, Iraq among the world's most corrupt

Graft watchdog Transparency International hit out at rich countries over shady banking practices on Tuesday as it published its annual rankings naming and shaming the world's most corrupt countries.
"Corrupt money must not find safe haven. It is time to put an end to excuses," said the Berlin-based group's head Huguette Labelle.
"Even industrialised countries cannot be complacent: the supply of bribery and the facilitation of corruption often involve businesses based in their countries," the report said, listing Australia as sharing eighth spot with Canada and Iceland.
In the wake of the financial crisis, the Group of 20 (G20) industrialised countries turned up the heat on tax havens, targeting rich countries with long-held banking secrecy laws like Liechtenstein and Switzerland.
But Labelle said extra efforts were imperative, calling for more bilateral treaties on information exchange in order to "to fully end the secrecy regime".
Overall, the 2009 corruption list is "of great concern", the organisation said, with the majority of countries scoring under five in the ranking, which ranges from zero, highly corrupt and 10, which is very clean.
The bottom five nations - Somalia, Afghanistan, Burma, Sudan and Iraq - show that "countries which are perceived as the most corrupt are also those plagued by long-standing conflicts, which have torn apart their governance infrastructure," TI said.
The five countries seen as least afflicted by corruption were New Zealand, Denmark, Singapore, Sweden and Switzerland.
New Zealand scored 9.4 points whereas Somalia scored 1.0 points.
The score is based on perceptions of the degree of corruption as seen by business people and country analysts.

Watchdog names most corrupt countries