If you could have chosen your religion ?


L Gilbert
#61
Quote: Originally Posted by Bar SinisterView Post

I did choose; by rejecting the religion I was born into, and every other religion as well.

That's a giant step forward.
 
L Gilbert
#62
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

I was fortunate enough that my parents did not force any religion on me. They were from different protestant religions, not sure which. But being raised in a logging camp we didn't get to a church very often. There was a group that came to camp every sunday to do a church thing for the adults and a sunday school for us that we were forced to go to. As a result I chose not to have any religion. I can't even really be called an atheist because I simply don't care if there is a god or not, and if all the preachers that diddle little kids and kill those who have other beliefs are an example of religious behaviour and gods messengers then I don't want any part of it.

Agnostic is the term used these days.
Quote:

This way I cannot be called a hypocrite.

At least not for that aspect of life.
 
earth_as_one
#63
Quote: Originally Posted by selinView Post

i am happy with the way i am because i am free to believe what religion i want and i can pick the wisdom of my religion without any pressure on me , but if i were in the other countries who experience İslam , i'm sure i would be an atheist...

Atheists and people who have a religion aren't that different. Both have to make a leap of faith. In the case of Jews, Christians and Muslims, they believe there is a god, even though they can't prove it. Atheists believe there is no god, even though they can't prove it either.

That's why I'm agnostic. Until I see proof one way or the other, I refuse to commit myself. In the meantime, I try others as I'd have them treat me. We are all brothers and sisters of a very large extended family. Which is why I see the earth_as_one.
Last edited by earth_as_one; Feb 15th, 2010 at 11:49 PM..
 
L Gilbert
#64
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

Atheists and people who have a religion aren't that different. Both have to make a leap of faith. In the case of Jews, Christians and Muslims, they believe there is a god, even though they can't prove it. Atheists believe there is no god, even though the can't prove it. That's why I'm agnostic. Until I see proof one way or the other, I refuse to commit myself. In the meantime, I try others as I'd have them treat me. We are all brothers and sisters of a very large extended family. Which is why I see the earth_as_one.

What leap of faith do I have concerning this issue? Why would I need a leap of faith? If I can't see an apple growing on the end of one of my fingers, why would I need a leap of faith deciding that there isn't one there? Leaps of faith require assumptions.
 
earth_as_one
#65
Just because you cannot detect an apple growing on the end of one of your fingers, doesn't prove its non-existance. Maybe one is there, but you lack the ability to detect it. I admit the chances are unlikely or even beyond a reasonable doubt, but they aren't zero. Proving the non-existance of something, is a logical impossibility. Just like you can't prove the non-existance of leprechauns, bigfoot and Saddam Hussein's WMD stockpiles.

For the same reason, you can't prove God's non-existance. Therefore atheists have to believe there is no god. Atheism is a belief based system.

In your opinion, that there is no God, may be beyond a reasonable doubt. Human beings have a primitive understanding of the Universe. God could be a reasonable approximation of the truth about the nature of the universe and its creation and you can't prove I'm wrong...
 
bobnoorduyn
#66
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

It believes in artificial deities, artificial ways of relating to creation. That is why I have such a strong affinity to the ancient traditions of the aboriginal peoples. I have lived as they did, with creation, not in opposition to it.

I don't like delving into these kind of threads because they end up being dominated by extremists, however, I will add this; you and I seem to have experienced an extreme difference in aboriginal beliefs. My experince has been with those whose are very close to the beliefs of the the OT; mainly, there is one deity, the Creator, the Great Spirit, and as it was put to me, the Bible was written for those who had fallen out of favour with Him. The native tribes had not yet suffered this fate, but soon would, as we all would or did. The use of the masculine in written or oral history is used the same as it is in contracts, but male and female is a mortal experience, it is non existant in the spirit world, for that reason God cannot be a "she" either.
 
L Gilbert
#67
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

Just because you cannot detect an apple growing on the end of one of your fingers, doesn't prove its non-existance. Maybe one is there, but you lack the ability to detect it. I admit the chances are unlikely or even beyond a reasonable doubt, but they aren't zero. Proving the non-existance of something, is a logical impossibility. Just like you can't prove the non-existance of leprechauns, bigfoot and Saddam Hussein's WMD stockpiles.

For the same reason, you can't prove God's non-existance. Therefore atheists have to believe there is no god. Atheism is a belief based system. Like I said, leaps of faith rely upon assumptions.

In your opinion, that there is no God, may be beyond a reasonable doubt. Human beings have a primitive understanding of the Universe. God could be a reasonable approximation of the truth about the nature of the universe and its creation and you can't prove I'm wrong...

I don't have to. I am atheist because I simply accept that there are no gods because I accept there is not a shred of evidence for them. I don't even have to prove anything to myself, let alone anyone else. It isn't a matter of belief or disbelief with me anymore.
Like I said, I don't need a leap of faith to tell me there's no apple there. If you want me to prove there's no apple there, I will call 911 for the guys with extra long arms on their white PJs and direct them to you. Simple, neh? IOW, just because I cannot prove there are no gods doesn't mean there are gods nor does it mean that you can prove there are.
Last edited by L Gilbert; Feb 16th, 2010 at 12:15 AM..
 
earth_as_one
#68
Its a philosophical dilema Les. The question of God's existance is non-sensical or not a logical question, since it can't be disproven. It could be proven, but it hasn't. So it remains an unanswered question. Both atheists and theist believe they know the answer but they can't support their believe with conclusive evidence.

That's why Agnosticism is the only logical position regarding this question:

ag·nos·tic (g-nstk)n.1. a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
 
L Gilbert
#69
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

Its a philosophical dilema Les. The question of God's existance is non-sensical or not a logical question, since it can't be disproven. It could be proven, but it hasn't. So it remains an unanswered question. Both atheists and theist believe they know the answer but they can't support their believe with conclusive evidence.

That's why Agnosticism is the only logical position regarding this question:

ag·nos·tic (g-nstk)n.1. a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

There isn't one religion that's been able to use logic to point out that gods exist in the parameters they have described for themselves and logic has been used to wind these religions into knots. That's close enough for me.
BTW, there is more than one definition for "agnosticism". For instance, my wife's brand of agnosticism: she doesn't care whether there are gods or not because they have no bearing on how she conducts her life. They are irrelevant.
 
talloola
#70
Quote: Originally Posted by L GilbertView Post

I don't have to. I am atheist because I simply accept that there are no gods because I accept there is not a shred of evidence for them. I don't even have to prove anything to myself, let alone anyone else. It isn't a matter of belief or disbelief with me anymore.
Like I said, I don't need a leap of faith to tell me there's no apple there. If you want me to prove there's no apple there, I will call 911 for the guys with extra long arms on their white PJs and direct them to you. Simple, neh? IOW, just because I cannot prove there are no gods doesn't mean there are gods nor does it mean that you can prove there are.

An atheist doesn't have to prove 'anything'.No one has
ever seen any god, but the believers say there are gods,
so it is they who need to prove it, if they want to, I
really don't care if they do or not, I don't decide there
are gods when one has never been seen, in many thousands
of years, I will put my energy in reality and what we
know, here on our earth.
Things that a flitting around, but are invisible, are just
that, invisible, so no one has ever seen them, I don't
relate to things like that, they are only in the heads of
those who believe something invisible is there, so it
really has nothing to do with atheists, we just don't
think the same.
 
Cliffy
#71
Quote: Originally Posted by bobnoorduynView Post

I don't like delving into these kind of threads because they end up being dominated by extremists, however, I will add this; you and I seem to have experienced an extreme difference in aboriginal beliefs. My experince has been with those whose are very close to the beliefs of the the OT; mainly, there is one deity, the Creator, the Great Spirit, and as it was put to me, the Bible was written for those who had fallen out of favour with Him. The native tribes had not yet suffered this fate, but soon would, as we all would or did. The use of the masculine in written or oral history is used the same as it is in contracts, but male and female is a mortal experience, it is non existant in the spirit world, for that reason God cannot be a "she" either.

The aboriginal people believe in an anthropomorphous creator but they alsobelieve the Earth is our mother, that she is the origin of life and the provider of all they need. In that way they view her as a goddess and cohort of the Creator as symbolized by the sun.They also recognized the influence of the moon on the cycles of life, referring to her as Grandmother Moon. So although they believed in the one creator, they also had lesser deities.

They also believed in the power of animal and plant spirits to help them navigate through life. Every animal has a set of characteristics that correspond to various human traits and virtues. Thus a bear represent inner strength, coyote is cunning, deer is beauty and innocence, wolf is wisdom, etc. Animals can help a person know themselves better and help through trying times.

I don't think your understanding is different than mine but you may not have delved into it to the extent that I have.
 
L Gilbert
#72
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

The aboriginal people believe in an anthropomorphous creator but they alsobelieve the Earth is our mother, that she is the origin of life and the provider of all they need. In that way they view her as a goddess and cohort of the Creator as symbolized by the sun.They also recognized the influence of the moon on the cycles of life, referring to her as Grandmother Moon. So although they believed in the one creator, they also had lesser deities. ..........

Which is fine until we found out that the building blocks for the beginning of life might have come from off-planet. lol
Still, it all seems more natural than having some god invent itself in order to invent a universe, etc. That's just stretching the rubber band of reason til it breaks.
 
Cliffy
#73
Quote: Originally Posted by L GilbertView Post

Which is fine until we found out that the building blocks for the beginning of life might have come from off-planet. lol
Still, it all seems more natural than having some god invent itself in order to invent a universe, etc. That's just stretching the rubber band of reason til it breaks.

Kinda like the Genesis bomb on Startrek. But the qualifier is the "might" have.

gods tend to get in the way of reasonable thought and personal responsibility.
 
L Gilbert
#74
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

Kinda like the Genesis bomb on Startrek. But the qualifier is the "might" have.

I have no doubt we will find a reasonable description eventually. And it won't be that something created itself from nothing in order to create a universe containing a pretty screwed up experiment like a human being.

Quote:

gods tend to get in the way of reasonable thought and personal responsibility.

That they do.
 
Francis2004
#75
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

gods tend to get in the way of reasonable thought and personal responsibility.

Do they..

Or is it that many people let them ?
 
Francis2004
#76
Quote: Originally Posted by Francis2004View Post

Do they..

Or is it that many people let them ?

Or should I say, most people are brain washed into believing so..
 
Cliffy
#77
Quote: Originally Posted by Francis2004View Post

Or should I say, most people are brain washed into believing so..

either way, responsibility is not needed when you can blame gods and demons for your actions.
 
Francis2004
#78
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

either way, responsibility is not needed when you can blame gods and demons for your actions.

The beauty in never saying it's my fault.. Us humans have a great way to wash away "sin"..
 
L Gilbert
#79
Quote: Originally Posted by Francis2004View Post

The beauty in never saying it's my fault.. Us humans have a great way to wash away "sin"..

.... instead of actually working to be better humans. Yup.
 
gerryh
#80
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

either way, responsibility is not needed when you can blame gods and demons for your actions.

Quote: Originally Posted by Francis2004View Post

The beauty in never saying it's my fault.. Us humans have a great way to wash away "sin"..

Quote: Originally Posted by L GilbertView Post

.... instead of actually working to be better humans. Yup.


A prime example of 3 men that don't have a clue what they are talking about.
Last edited by Ron in Regina; Feb 20th, 2010 at 10:29 AM..
 
El Barto
#81
I 'd go for Satanist, from what I've read it makes sense , but so far I rather go with out any .
 
Cliffy
#82
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

A prime example of 3 men that don't have a clue what they are talking about.

Good evening gerryh. I was brought up catholic so I know a little bit about that institution. I have also spent most of my adult life studying comparative religions and philosophies, so I do know something about that. Any yes, I have a lot of strong opinions about the subject, some of them almost as strong as your own, though I doubt we would agree much on the subject. None the less, I do respect your right to believe what you want but I was hoping that you would at least have a counter argument to the views expressed. Please take into consideration, the those views that I express are only my opinion and in no way reflect upon your belief system, just mine. I am open to be proven wrong.
Last edited by Ron in Regina; Feb 20th, 2010 at 10:26 AM..
 
gerryh
#83
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

Good evening gerryh. I was brought up catholic so I know a little bit about that institution. I have also spent most of my adult life studying comparative religions and philosophies, so I do know something about that. Any yes, I have a lot of strong opinions about the subject, some of them almost as strong as your own, though I doubt we would agree much on the subject. None the less, I do respect your right to believe what you want but I was hoping that you would at least have a counter argument to the views expressed. Please take into consideration, the those views that I express are only my opinion and in no way reflect upon your belief system, just mine. I am open to be proven wrong.


Sorry.... been through these threads and have already seen what you and your buddies do when it comes to discussion, as a matter of fact, my comments above are right in line with how you guys "discuss" things in the spirituality threads when it comes to Christianity, Islam, and Catholicism in particular.
 
SirJosephPorter
#84
Quote: Originally Posted by earth_as_oneView Post

For the same reason, you can't prove God's non-existance. Therefore atheists have to believe there is no god. Atheism is a belief based system.

In your opinion, that there is no God, may be beyond a reasonable doubt. Human beings have a primitive understanding of the Universe. God could be a reasonable approximation of the truth about the nature of the universe and its creation and you can't prove I'm wrong...

This is the same old argument; I don’t have to prove you wrong. When somebody makes a positive statement (e.g. there is a God), it is up to him to prove the statement. The burden of proof is upon him, not me.

The positive and negative side in an argument are not on the same footing, as you seem to think. The fact that you cannot prove that God exists and I cannot prove that he doesn’t exist, does not put us on equal footing. Responsibility exists with you to put forth evidence; I only have to shoot it down.

Suppose I tell you that I believe in anthropomorphic God, a God who looks just like me. I cannot prove that statement, you cannot disprove it. Does that mean that we are on equal footing, that a God who look just like me may exist (since we cannot prove one way or other)?

Or let me give the example I gave a while ago. I say that on the dark side of moon, the side we cannot see, there is a three bedroom house made of gingerbread and Swiss cheese, with a pool filled with maple syrup in the backyard (all hermetically sealed).

Now, you cannot disprove that statement, I cannot prove it. Does that put us on equal footing? Does that mean that we just don’t know, such a house may or may not exist?

Noting of the sort, the statement is assumed to be false until I can prove it to be true. It is the same with God. If somebody makes a statement that God exists, it is up to him to prove it; I don’t have to prove that God doesn’t exist. Burden of proof rests with the one who makes a positive statement.
 
darkbeaver
#85
Wasp Climatoligist or Black Hole Relativist and only if I could be a marrying bishop or pope.
 
Francis2004
#86
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

Sorry.... been through these threads and have already seen what you and your buddies do when it comes to discussion, as a matter of fact, my comments above are right in line with how you guys "discuss" things in the spirituality threads when it comes to Christianity, Islam, and Catholicism in particular.

Pretty big brush your using gerryh.. Care to elaborate a bit on that "buddies" and "discuss" subject a bit for all of us so "WE" know we what we all think?

I sure would love to see what I have in my mind lately..
 
VanIsle
#87
Quote: Originally Posted by darkbeaverView Post

Wasp Climatoligist or Black Hole Relativist and only if I could be a marrying bishop or pope.

DB, believe it or not, for anyone on here who actually knows me, this statement is quite funny. No - I won't explain it, but, it's still quite funny.
 
darkbeaver
#88
Quote: Originally Posted by VanIsleView Post

DB, believe it or not, for anyone on here who actually knows me, this statement is quite funny. No - I won't explain it, but, it's still quite funny.

Whatever tickles you is OK with me VanIsle.
 
TenPenny
#89
Quote: Originally Posted by VanIsleView Post

DB, believe it or not, for anyone on here who actually knows me, this statement is quite funny. No - I won't explain it, but, it's still quite funny.

Oh I know; I thought of you the moment I read it.
 
bobnoorduyn
#90
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

The aboriginal people believe in an anthropomorphous creator but they alsobelieve the Earth is our mother, that she is the origin of life and the provider of all they need. In that way they view her as a goddess and cohort of the Creator as symbolized by the sun.They also recognized the influence of the moon on the cycles of life, referring to her as Grandmother Moon. So although they believed in the one creator, they also had lesser deities.

They also believed in the power of animal and plant spirits to help them navigate through life. Every animal has a set of characteristics that correspond to various human traits and virtues. Thus a bear represent inner strength, coyote is cunning, deer is beauty and innocence, wolf is wisdom, etc. Animals can help a person know themselves better and help through trying times.

I don't think your understanding is different than mine but you may not have delved into it to the extent that I have.

Not all aboriginals had the same beliefs, nor did they all behave civil or humanely. They were as diverse then as we all are now. Our beliefs may not differ that much but I still belive in one Creator who has dominion over "His" creations and delgates dominion in a descending order, (and yes, through spirits or angels), where we as humans, are the lowest order of sentient beings. Just as in the bible there are interpretations, though only through spirituality comes the realisation of what is right and just.

You and I may not be that far apart, but it seems you trust more in what the eye can see than what the heart can feel.
 

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