Faith coerced is not faith its tyranny

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Faith coerced is not faith its tyranny

Im watching Meet the Press and this man that's on there now......sorry no name just said that.

Talk about a clue by four.......WOW

Sunday, Dec. 24

Rick Warren, Jon Meacham


View related photos


NBC News

Exclusive! In a special holiday edition, Dr. Rick Warren, author of the international best-seller "The Purpose Driven Life," and Jon Meacham, Newsweek's Editor and author of "American Gospel," discuss Faith in America: Can religion unite the country for the greater good and what role will God and values play in the 2008 presidential election?
Then, two "Meet the Press" holiday traditions -- our "Meet the Press Minute" with famed poet Robert Frost from Christmas weekend 51 years ago and a special performance of holiday music from the United States Navy Band Brass Quartet.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3898804/
 
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CDNBear

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Im watching Meet the Press and this man that's on there now......sorry no name just said that.

Talk about a clue by four.......WOW
Yes I would concure.

If you take a quick trip through the sin thread and others here you will see comments such as this...

The church community in its ideal form would be a protective milieu...into which we are baptised. The extent to which we all fail to live lives of holiness is in part due to the ongoing effects of original sin and the failure of the church community to guard us from the sin of the world.

Posted by m_levesque

If you read it quickly, you may miss the meaning of it and the depths of its rather telling context.

"The churches failure"

In this the poster sees that the church has failed to protect us from our sin.

"to quard us from sin"

Once again, now it has failed to guard us from sin.

If either comment were to be addressed and a "guard" or a "protective" action taken, what would happen to religiou freedoms?

This smacks of singularism and is symptomatice of not just the Catholic faith, but most faiths based on the Old Testaments.

This is where I draw my disrespect for organized religion and its effects on rights and freedoms.

I can not even remember howmany times a Christian, has asked me about my medicine pouch, I explain, then the resulting conversation turns to either my salvation or my condamnation.

I fear if all organized religions were not bound by constitutions of some sort, we would have the same sort of Fundamental states we see in the ME.
 

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My shrink says dont go looking for trouble when you have an (admitted) big mouth ;) LOL

When he said it I emmideatly thought of the ME but more the "Mid-Evil" times. Same situation though dont you think? This guys really smart and has a gentle way about him. He talks about Non christians having a sense of history. And a sense of Civility. With that we are armed and aware. They were talking about 2.3 billion christions "on the march" And Jon Meacham, Newsweek's Editor and author of "American Gospel said well thats all well and good but the thought of it makes me wince.......Im sitting there yelling "Wince my arse it scares the HELL outta me!"

I want Peace. Peace of heart but I KNOW by history that when christians gather to do "good" works MY People get BURNED! Literly.
 

CDNBear

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I want Peace. Peace of heart but I KNOW by history that when christians gather to do "good" works MY People get BURNED! Literly.
Oddly, we get it figuratively here, lol.

I have a friend that discusses the Catholic church with me from time to time. He told me once that he prays for me when he goes to Mass, but always aprehensively, he's afraid the mere mention of my name may garner the retrobution of God. I told him I appreciated that. He does not try to convert me, he sees my faith as simular to his, and agrees that if we all followed our faithes and stopped trying to categorize others or convert each other, the world would likely be a better place.

He also agrees that the Catholic church as do others, spend far to much time, preaching on the sins and wrongs of others, then it really should. Preach to the choir, he says. Preach to those that will listen, stop being high handed and brow beating anyone, does not generally produce the desired effects.
 

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Me and the church have issues. HUGE issues. When I light a candle for someone I ask first. Its candle magic and in my belief it says "Do no harm" Ive seen peoples faces when the know Im Pagan and I offer to say intentions......Its harmful. So I dont. I smile and say "ok" and we change the subject. Last night I did a healing at the Bistro and the girl was so thankful. It was just a cut but it was bothering her. BUT there are some that FREAK and I really get scared for my well being! Its crazy. I dont postualize. I dont shove my thoughts about Goddess and God down peoples throats. I LOVE talking with you because you dont judge my faith. You listen and we have an open dialog. Do you have ANY idea how I crave REAL conversation of faith? Im prolly a pest but WADO!

My ideas arent always as structured as everyone elses but I hope I made sense
 

AmberEyes

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And here I thought I was the only one with pagan beliefs. :) Glad to know I'm not!

I haven't been here for very long, and I really haven't had the time to read any of the longer threads just yet. So in response to that, I'll respond to the title of this thread.

My family, or I should say my extended family and friends, are all Christian. My sister has decided she is Catholic. This leaves my me, my mother, and my father as the only members of the family with pagan/wiccan beliefs. It pains me to say this, but because of such a difference in ideas, the family has been split into two. Year after year, this season has been a painful reminder of that split. Where the entire christian family will gather and praise Jesus on Christmas day, my small little family sits off to the side and celebrates on our own, both christmas and the solstice. We have been "cast aside" by the others because we are not the same.

Now I know you're wondering what this has to do with faith being forced on others. When I was still growing up, before my family came out of the closet with our pagan ideals, we went to church every sunday, went to christian schools, and hung out with christian people. I couldn't help but notice that we were constantly being barraged with this talk of sin and pain and wrong-doing. I became confused - my parents told me of the God and Goddess, of their love for all living creatures and the planet we all inhabit. Yet my cousins, aunts, uncles, grandparents, friends and other family were telling me of how Christ was the only way, and that if I didn't do everything they told me I would burn in hell. We stopped going to church, I lost contact with most of my family, and we all went our seperate ways. Years later, I start work with my Uncle who owns a painting business. I begin to talk religion with my cousins (usually pretty friendly discussions) and began to learn a lot more about their ideas.

It soon became clear that I did not belong. Constantly I heard of Jesus, of salvation and sin, of how my beliefs in the God and Goddess were beliefs in false gods and false hope. I heard of how everything I did was in worship of Satan, and that if I didn't change my ways before the end of this lifetime, I would die forever. Soon they began to invite me to church and to youth groups, and I accepted. Not because I thought I was wrong, nor because I was confused, I went because I wanted to know more about these people and why they made me feel so horrible. It was all very unpleasant - more bickering and arguing, nothing really all that constructive. Eventually I asked my cousins, if I lie to you and tell you I believe in your God and I praise Jesus in your own way, in your church, will you be happy with me? Do you want me to lie about it, or do you want it to be true? I cannot change my ideas because I do not want to, and you cannot force me to follow your path unless I want to - and I don't!

This post is already far too long - sorry, I've got lots of stories and much to tell, but I'm probably not making my point very clear... hmm, maybe I'll try again later.
 

selfactivated

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Merry Meet Sister

Your story is a great deal like mine. I was raised catholic and my shrink calls it a disassiative episode LOL Call it what you like but the softer side of Goddess was made known to me at age six. Long story short and many years later my sister, still catholic and a ccd teacher......the whole 9 yards........is my best advocate. In the past 5 years shes sen the growth in my health and heart. She sees the glow in my face when I talk of Fae and Pan. My Bro in Law is a closet Zen Budist LOL shhhh ;) We hide because we dont conform. Its crazy. Im a practicing Solitary Wiccan AND I practice Shamanism. Sis calls it "Tamism" LOL and I agree. Im so glad you found this thread and Bear and I keep the fire lit so please do return. It nice to have quiet conversation and open hearts.

Blessed Be
Merry Part and Merry Meet again
Tam
 

Dexter Sinister

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This post is already far too long - sorry, I've got lots of stories and much to tell, but I'm probably not making my point very clear... hmm, maybe I'll try again later.
Seemed perfectly clear to me, and it's a story I've heard many times with only slightly different details about the intolerance and bigotry of certain people who call themselves Christians. Smug, self-righteous little fascists... :pukeright:

No post is too long if it's an interesting story well told. Please do try again later, you'll find many here are sympathetic to your views without necessarily sharing them. Like me, for instance. I'm neither Christian nor pagan, though selfactivated keeps trying to tell me I am (pagan I mean). And of course there are a few who'll condemn you for your beliefs, but you've dealt with people like that before.
 

CDNBear

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Seemed perfectly clear to me, and it's a story I've heard many times with only slightly different details about the intolerance and bigotry of certain people who call themselves Christians. Smug, self-righteous little fascists... :pukeright:

No post is too long if it's an interesting story well told. Please do try again later, you'll find many here are sympathetic to your views without necessarily sharing them. Like me, for instance. I'm neither Christian nor pagan, though selfactivated keeps trying to tell me I am (pagan I mean). And of course there are a few who'll condemn you for your beliefs, but you've dealt with people like that before.
Wow Dex, you almost sound like me, when talking to sanctus,lol. Well in the past anyways. A history, I'm moving away from.

To AmberEyes...

Welcome and your post was a wonderful contribution, thanx.
 

Curiosity

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Can I ask a question here? It has to do with the wording of the title of this topic:

Faith coerced is not faith - it's tyranny


What about a traditional family religion wherein the children of that family are educated in that one religion until they are of questioning age (often in the teen years), and they choose to break away.

If the parents have their lives built around that one church (probably from their own childhood), and
they prefer the children follow in their footsteps is this considered tyranny?

Should parents introduce other religions to their children or leave it up the child when of age?
 

CDNBear

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If the parents have their lives built around that one church (probably from their own childhood), and they prefer the children follow in their footsteps is this considered tyranny?
In my opinion? Yes.

Should parents introduce other religions to their children or leave it up the child when of age?
In my opinion? Yes.

I have done the latter myself, I of course teach the old ways of respect for nature and its bountiful providings. I have tought them about the Great Spirit, but... I have always felt it was important to show them other forms of belief systems. They have been to Mass, seen Buddist Monks pray(they loved that, they absolutely loved the chanting), They have been to a Shinto temple, they have been to a Mosque during prayer, they have gone to Temple with Jewish friends.

I believe in the exposure to all the differing religious aspects of life, they will one day pick their own faith and follow it dearly and passionately, while respecting the rights of others to follow suit in their own respective beliefs, without annomousity or distain.
 
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L Gilbert

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I think coercion is for the most part to be avoided. As a parent, one periodically has to exercise authority, but I prefer to leave the coercion to times when it would prevent serious harm. The rest of the time I think it's just misuse and abuse of authority and we have no end of that to deal with in society now. I prefer to explain to, and if I can, show kids what can happen if they perform harmful (to them or others) activities. I do not need a faith to be able to follow a decent existence, nor do I need one to raise kids to have decent existences, so I will not inflict a faith on them. If they wish to go see, no problem.
 

Curiosity

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Thanks for the answer Bear

My parents never said anything but I was invited by my childhood friends to attend their Temple and Church services and found them extremely interesting except for being embarrassed at not knowing
the rituals and all the thing people say out loud....

Conversely some of the parents of my friends I thought were too pushy indicating I could be "converted to their
more religious ways rather than the religion I practiced with my family". Some people are really stupid about
something as personal as religion - even to children.

As an adult I have attended many kinds of religious services but have a strange attachment to the
religion in which I was raised - which feels like "home base" or something.

At the point in my life overt religious attendance is taking a secondary role - but as I get older I will no
doubt find the need and time to go home. I don't feel very "pushed" to do so right now.

I adore the music of the churches however and especially one Temple choir who all had perfect pitch and needed no musical instrument to keep them on track.... some times I'll visit a church because someone has recommended their choir or organist or music director - for no other reason than that. When I was in college one of the Catholic Churches held a Jazz Celebration later on Sunday nights and I enjoyed that as well.

I have gone to an African-American based Pentacostal church with my girlfriend who is an active member and the energy there is mesmerizing - you just cannot lose your contact with the services - almost hypnotic...and they have a great time too - sometimes religious services are way too sad and boring.
 
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selfactivated

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Can I ask a question here? It has to do with the wording of the title of this topic:

Faith coerced is not faith - it's tyranny

The title was from a quote by Jon Meacham, Newsweek's Editor and author of "American Gospel," I was watchin meet the press this morning and he is a brilliant speaker.

What about a traditional family religion wherein the children of that family are educated in that one religion until they are of questioning age (often in the teen years), and they choose to break away.


If the parents have their lives built around that one church (probably from their own childhood), and
they prefer the children follow in their footsteps is this considered tyranny?

Should parents introduce other religions to their children or leave it up the child when of age?

As I was raising my children I had worries about them being left out if I didnt choose a religion for them. I chose Salvation Army because it was nondenominational and it was basically a washed down version of christianity. They also based their beliefs on "works" THAT resonated with me. So I was the sunbeam teacher and we were all in plays and choirs I was In "Home Leage" and we went to family camp every year. As the kids grew older , In their teens it wasnt them that made the break it was me. LOL I tried Johovah witness mostly to piss the inlaws off. and when I got divorced and left Texas I started back to the beliefs I had as a child. I returned to the beginning


As a child I was a catholic because my step father was. Mom converted from Baptist to catholocism when I was 5. I took all the sacraments except marrage and death. I went to confession and begged for God to help me AND the preist. I was told at 10 to stop tempting my step father. Noone helped. My childhood in private revolved around Shamanism and Goddess and magicians. I read everything. And when I was "found out" I was beat. So, my entire life until the kids were born I was a closet Pagan. Literly. So to answer your question in my case yes it was tyrany. But for my children it was choice.

My youngest wants to be a Salvation Army Minister. She takes after her mother ;) I recently have been made Pagan Clergy for the hospital.

I hope I answered that fairly coherently.
 

CDNBear

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Thanks for the answer Bear

My parents never said anything but I was invited by my childhood friends to attend their Temple and Church services and found them extremely interesting except for being embarrassed at not knowing
the rituals and all the thing people say out loud....

Conversely some of the parents of my friends I thought were too pushy indicating I could be "converted to their
more religious ways rather than the religion I practiced with my family". Some people are really stupid about
something as personal as religion - even to children.

As an adult I have attended many kinds of religious services but have a strange attachment to the
religion in which I was raised - which feels like "home base" or something.

At the point in my life overt religious attendance is taking a secondary role - but as I get older I will no
doubt find the need and time to go home. I don't feel very "pushed" to do so right now.
As is your right, a right I would die to uphold.

My greatest concern is that, the rights of others, may at sometime be subjugated to an extent reminisent of the ME, in order to keep us all sin free. Because some evanglist asshat gets in his/her head that we all need it.

There in lies my rather fevered distain of the religious zealots that profes they preach or belong to the one true religion, or as m_levesque put it... the church has failed to impose it.

Imposing anything on anyone that is not in accordance with the rights and freedoms of the Charter is criminal and repugnant. Let freedom reign and be happy within your faith. Find the security of self of belief and leave all else alone. That is my mantra, lol.
 

Curiosity

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Thanks to all...as I was adding a few floating thoughts to my original post....there was some other great answers.....

Pushing a child will create resistance - questions again should be given answers and if insufficient perhaps parents will have a "look see" with the child at different religions for comparison and discussion. My parents never did but I think they trusted my friends' parents not to push.
 

selfactivated

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Can I ask a question here? It has to do with the wording of the title of this topic:

Faith coerced is not faith - it's tyranny

What about a traditional family religion wherein the children of that family are educated in that one religion until they are of questioning age (often in the teen years), and they choose to break away.

If the parents have their lives built around that one church (probably from their own childhood), and
they prefer the children follow in their footsteps is this considered tyranny?

Should parents introduce other religions to their children or leave it up the child when of age?

As is your right, a right I would die to uphold.

My greatest concern is that, the rights of others, may at sometime be subjugated to an extent reminisent of the ME, in order to keep us all sin free. Because some evanglist asshat gets in his/her head that we all need it.

There in lies my rather fevered distain of the religious zealots that profes they preach or belong to the one true religion, or as m_levesque put it... the church has failed to impose it.

Imposing anything on anyone that is not in accordance with the rights and freedoms of the Charter is criminal and repugnant. Let freedom reign and be happy within your faith. Find the security of self of belief and leave all else alone. That is my mantra, lol.

On the program this morning they were spouting off a great deal of numbers I cant remember. Christianity carried 1/3 of the world population and well they had it all broken down but it accurred to me that its the non traditional groups that pray for the world and find center. Im not saying this right. All the fighting in ME is the next largest religous grouping.......Has a wiccan ever started a war? Look at Dahli Lahma.........Peace is all that comes from that man. Di the Shamans believe in war? I mean the faiths that find themselves perfect in their own skin dont seem to be warring. Am I making sense?
 

MikeyDB

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Happy Christmas Curio! :)


I'm fairly certain I don't have to tell you (you've left everything but a landmine to tell me how knowledgeable you are regarding psychiatry...;)...

Unfortunately we're all too terribly familiar with the efforts of some, to bludgeon us into "correct" behavior, into "acceptable" beliefs and ideas...

This assault is well recognized in the physical brutality and on-going inhumanity foisted on the innocent and those least able to protect and defend themselves from bullets bombs and missiles...

What is somehow frequently over-looked is the nature of emotional tyranny and abuse. Anyone attempting to force you through physical threat is rightly called a bully and a coward, but we have far greater difficulty recognizing and naming the more subtle elements involved in people manipulating our emotional awareness to achieve exactly the same thing...

"Guilt" has always worked well, as does withholding love accpetance, comfort compassion and so on, and the effort is frequently made to enhance an already present sense of remoteness and lonliness in the universe. The idea that one can be rejected "justifiably" for practicing homosexuality, for asking the "church" to respect the decision that a marriage is disasterously broken and permit these people another 'chance'...etc. etc....

The world has an overabundance of manipulators and "game-players" eager to enlist your enthusiasm through feigned acceptance, an ersatz "love" or prediction of dire consequence for NOT "seeing" some spiritual or philosophical condition/circumstance in the "right" (preferred) light.

What we think and feel is just as vulnerable to manipulation at the hands of emotional tyrants, from birth to grave as we are to the brutality of the fanatic and the zealot.
 

Curiosity

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MikeyDB = A very Merry Christmas to you!!

Good post - I think people raising children get into a pattern without realizing the consequences they are imprinting. Guilt and withholding acceptance are used far too often in our world and unfortunately for
the victims they often work.

Regarding religious belief: I have lived through child acceptance and happiness having a weekly commitment with my parents and siblings and attending many of the church activities. Later in life exploration of other worship services gave me comparisons, and finally a complete break with my childhood religion in a very unhappy situation gave me much anger - which I am still nursing like a split lip! Ah the drama of it. The church isn't going anywhere so I can play the diva until I feel something is missing in my life.... (or not).

BTW - I hope you don't feel I am to overanalytical - I am inclined to be a bore too often. When I write about some things I tend to use language which sounds pontifical...

It is not meant to put down anyone - just my way of communicating. There is a great deal I know nothing about and I would be first in line to admit it.
 
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selfactivated

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Curio

I dont think you over analys at all! I envy all of you so much because your thoughts are so well thought out and logical. Im all emotions and I should be more feelings ......thats another thread LOL Your words are graceful and smart. Never apologise for the way you dance.