What is your religion?

October 13th, 2004, 07:08 PM

No, I am not now and have never been a prof. But thanks for thinking I might be.

No, the Ten Commandments are not concepts that generate religious opinions about humanity and our place in the world.

And no, no modern legal system is based on the Ten Commandments.

The Ten Commandments are just 10 of something over 600 prescriptions for correct behaviour we find in the Old Testament, mostly in Leviticus and Deuteronomy, and if you actually tried to live by them, you'd be in jail. What I meant by concepts are things like the existence of God, and what his supposed characteristics are, and ideas like these, just for example:

1. there are supernatural forces that will protect us if we follow the proper rituals.
2. some part of your personality survives the death of your body.
3. the universe has some purpose
4. humans have some special role in the universe's purpose.
5. people have special, untapped powers that will enable them to get something for nothing.

There's no evidence that any of those are true statements, but most people at most times in history have believed at least two of them.

The first four of the Ten Commandments are the prohibition of the worship of any deity but God, prohibition of idolatry, prohibition of taking God's name in vain, and the requirement to observe the Sabbath. Nowhere in the world are those enforced in any modern legal system, they'll exist only in feudal theocracies. The other six, to honour your parents and the prohibitions against murder, adultery, stealing, lying, and coveting all the cool stuff your neighbour owns, are just common sense rules necessary for any ordered society. You'll find them in some form in any civilization. The Bible provides both a religious and a humanitarian justification for them, but they're not unique to or even original in the Old Testament.

I never suggested religious opinions are created by potheads, all I'm suggesting is that they're very likely wrong. It's true they'll endure longer than most scientific explanations, but an idea's longevity or the number of people who believe it has nothing to do with its truth content. Scientific explanations get modified as new information emerges, which rarely happens with religious opinions. Science has been wrong many times, about many things, and makes no claims to absolute knowledge the way religions tend to. The essence of the scientific enterprise is that it's self-correcting in a way religious belief can never be.

I rather resent being called closed-minded. My conclusions are the result of about 30 years of study, reflection, and analysis of these issues, and I suggest I've thought about them a lot more, and a lot more deeply, than you have. I went where the evidence took me, and if you have some good evidence that'll take me somewhere else, I'll cheerfully change my mind and thank you for enlightening me.

As for what started the Big Bang, the only honest scientific answer is that we don't know. Is there a Greater Force--I presume that's a euphemism for God--that started it? Possibly; we don't know that either, but the evidence doesn't particularly point that way. You're invoking what's called the God of the Gaps argument: anything we don't understand, God must have done it. That's not an explanation, it's just avoiding an explanation. The argument turns around nicely too: if God did it, then where did he come from? Invoking a deity as an explanation for anything is the death of rational investigation.

Dex

October 13th, 2004, 08:21 PM

I think you need to go back and re-read whatever reference you got that first idea from. That's not even close to what science says. If that's what your book says, you should use it for kindling and replace it with a legitimate reference, like Brian Greene's "The Elegant Universe."

And for the second point, science has no such agenda, and that's a very inaccurate and unfair characterization of what science is about. Science looks for naturalistic explanations of the way things are, and doesn't invoke God simply because that's self-defeating. If you assume there's a supernatural being around who can change the rules at anytime, there's no point in trying to figure out what the game's about. Science has to assume the universe is consistent, orderly, and knowable in order to proceed at all, and really has nothing to say about whether some god is behind it all.

October 13th, 2004, 09:53 PM

I'm a Christian, but I'm not a very good one...I rarely go to Church or read the Bible, but still, I totally believe in God and I enjoy hearing the stories and watching films about him.

October 14th, 2004, 12:06 AM

Welcome HockeyBabe. Are you suffering as I am with the NHL strike/lockout/whatever it is? I presume with a user name like that you're a fan of the Great Game.

I wouldn't worry about not going to church or reading the Bible much, that's not what makes a good Christian. Some of the nastiest people I've ever met were regular church goers and Bible readers. Self-righteous sanctimonious morons... It's not enough to just go through the motions, you have to live it. I'd say it's how you live, how you treat the people around you, the respect and courtesy and love that informs and guides you in your daily life, that matters. I'm not Christian myself, in fact I'm a fairly hard-nosed atheist, as should be clear from what I've posted in here, but if you find Christianity provides you with things you need and improves your life and the lives of the people around you, good for you, and Christianity.

October 14th, 2004, 04:09 PM

well thanks Dexter...I think I'm gonna tell my mother that, because I am VERY nice to everyone around me, including the people that make me angry. I've lied a lot though but I don't really wanna talk about it. But I'm sure that God has forgiving me, because I've confessed to just about all of my sins, I think. I'm not really a big social person, but I'm involved with 2 activities in my school. Hockey Club (in which I missed the tryouts yesterday ) and I'm in my school choir. I have a concert tonight in about 4 hours...wish me luck everyone!! tata!

October 14th, 2004, 04:11 PM

ehh good luck!

October 14th, 2004, 05:11 PM

thanks

October 14th, 2004, 05:56 PM

I was raised atheist.

However, as somebody said neither side can prove anything and nobody really knows for sure, so I would probably say I am an agnostic.

One thing I believe is that there is a reasonable explanation for everything, even for what we'd normally consider a Greater Power, we just may not be able to grasp it yet.

I don't believe you need religion or its commandments to be a good person, I think we have built-in mechanisam to distinguish right from wrong, and we have a free choice to do one or the other.

October 15th, 2004, 02:04 AM

Eh, we all lie a lot, don't worry about it. Sometimes it's just not kind or necessary to tell the truth, so we tell little lies to keep the peace. Suppose, for instance, that your best friend shows up with a hideous new hairstyle and an outfit that makes her look like a cross between a huge hairy insect and some mutant freak made of nothing but boobs, and wants to know what you think of it. What are you going to say? Of course you're going to lie. "Interesting effect," you'll say, or "Wow, what an incredible outfit," or something like that. You're not going to tell her that she looks like the boob that ate Las Vegas.

Or maybe you would, I dunno...

October 15th, 2004, 02:08 AM

Hey, I'd vote for you. My sentiments exactly.

October 15th, 2004, 08:13 AM

It's interesting though how people we'd actually gladly vote for would never do politics.

October 15th, 2004, 08:38 AM

Looking at the poll I would have expected more Protestants ... as Canada being a predominantly Protestant country right? ... oh wait it seems Canada is 46% Roman Catholic, and 36% Protestant (CIA Yearbook) ... that clears alot.

October 15th, 2004, 09:07 AM

Dex, it seems that you and I will have to agree to disagree on this topic. I am sorry for calling you closed-minded, my bad.
But I want ot relpy on one of the tings that you said,
Regarding number four, I think that everyone has a purpose in this world. I think that it is naive to think that people do not. It is important that everyone believes that they have a purpose, hey, it is what everyone is always tyring to figure out. Whether it is ture or not, that is not the point, the point is that if no one thought they had a purpose in thier life, we would have a bunch of lazy bums. People need that something to reach for, to believe that they are the only one who can do it...I don't think that even you could honestly say that you disagree with me on this one. I bet that you think you have a purpose, maybe it is to raise two beautiful children, or to stand up for animal rights (these are just off the top of my head), but no matter what it is you think that there is a reason for you to be alive to live another day...

October 15th, 2004, 01:51 PM

Sure, I have no problem with that. If we agreed on everything, what would we have to talk about? And thanks for the apology; very gracious of you, so let's just put that behind us.

And on your main point, I'd agree on one level that we all have a purpose, but we'd probably disagree on the source of the purpose. I think we have to make our own purposes and create our own meanings. As I've said somewhere else, I think the meaning of life is to be found in our relationships with other people, in what we can do to, with, for, and sometimes in spite of, those we love best. That's all there is, as far as I can tell, so my family and friends I cherish beyond measure.

And how did you know I have two beautiful children?

October 15th, 2004, 02:00 PM

That's really far too small a sample to be significant, we'd need about a thousand responses before the results would mean anything, but I'm a little surprised that the total of the agnostic/atheist/no religion groups has fluctuated between about 45 and 50%. Seems way too high to me, I'd have guessed it at about 10% in the general population. I wouldn't put much stock in the CIA Yearbook though. I've read the bits of it that describe how Canada's government works, and it has almost nothing to do with how things really are.

October 15th, 2004, 02:08 PM

That's the CIA in a nutshell. Why worry about the facts when a perfectly good manipulative fiction will do?

October 15th, 2004, 02:53 PM

Yes I know that I need to have thousands of responses before I can get a good structure in this, but I was a bit influenced by a lesson of sociology I had ... it seems that Protestants more than Catholics have the chance to abandon their faith (if not they themselves, their children and grandchildren) ... for example, 100 years ago approximately 60% of all Dutchmen were Protestant and 40% Catholic ... nowadays, about 35% of all Dutch are Catholic (relatively stable), while only 25% of all Dutchmen are Protestant (large decrease) ... one of the reasons mentioned was the fact that not-so-religious Protestants, or "mainstream" (not Orthodox) Protestants are less focused on their own religious group compared to Roman Catholics ... thus you will find more people among mainstream Protestants who themselves, or else their offspring, abandon their faith and join the unaffiliated crowd, because they have no bond anymore with their religious group... I realize now that has little to do with the poll ... though it does make me wonder: what is the background of the people who voted for agnostic, or atheist?

October 15th, 2004, 03:26 PM

If you think as I do that organized religion (raised protestant sort of)is the bane of most of the worlds problems George Carlin puts it best, language aside - at least as far as Christianity is concerned:


When it comes to bulls**t, big-time, major league bulls**t, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims,religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bulls**t story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bulls**t story. Holy s**t!
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I have a question for Hollabak. Do you as a Christian think that only the Christian God is the correct God and that all other religions are comprised of heathens?