The ten commandments

JLM
#121
Quote: Originally Posted by AnnaGView Post

Yes, it would be silly. But I bet there are people that think that. Probably related to those that think Earth and the universe it is in are only 6000 years old, too. lol
BTW, the only evidence that this Christ charact4er existed is hearsay, last I heard. Hubby and I dug fairly deeply into it for a while.

"Years" can be a pretty nebulous quantity in the Bible. Methuselah lived to be 969 of those "years". It says somewhere probably in Genesis that "1000 years is to a day as a day is to 1000 years"- so the word has to be considered in the context it's used.
 
Downhome_Woman
#122
Quote: Originally Posted by AnnaGView Post

Yes, it would be silly. But I bet there are people that think that. Probably related to those that think Earth and the universe it is in are only 6000 years old, too. lol
BTW, the only evidence that this Christ charact4er existed is hearsay, last I heard. Hubby and I dug fairly deeply into it for a while.

I dunno - Flavius Josephus mentioned him in his writings - he wasn't Christian, he was a Romanized Jew - and he never became a Christian. I think he existed as a man - do I think he was the Messiah? No - the whole christian concept of Messiah stems from the Jewish prophesy. but as any Jewish scholar. The Messiah isn't an actual physical, warrior messiah - not a 'you might die but your souls are saved' messiah..
 
Downhome_Woman
#123
Quote: Originally Posted by Downhome_WomanView Post

I dunno - Flavius Josephus mentioned him in his writings - he wasn't Christian, he was a Romanized Jew - and he never became a Christian. I think he existed as a man - do I think he was the Messiah? No - the whole christian concept of Messiah stems from the Jewish prophesy. but as any Jewish scholar. The Messiah isn't an actual physical, warrior messiah - not a 'you might die but your souls are saved' messiah..

And that should read 'IS' an actual physical warrior' messiah.
Lesson? Don't type by the glow of the monitor - turn on the lights ...
LOL!!
 
MHz
#124
Quote: Originally Posted by Downhome_WomanView Post

Maybe you should have just replied to my post? If you want to make a statement fine - go down and write a comment - but if you are replying to my post, then reply. and please - don't 'E.I. Nassir' your posts - there can be such a thing as an overload of quotes - Koranic or Biblical.

Feel free to comment on anything the verses actually say.
Maybe I did and you just don't like the answer. Another person who want to rip the Bible apart with the stipulation that any 'defense' cannot use quotes from the Book. lol Too much

Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorterView Post

That really summarizes it rather nicely. I have always felt that Christian God (and Muslim God) comes across as a tin pot dictator, like Pinochet or Mugabe, threatening to torture and kill you if you don’t obey him.

God is actually even worse than Pinochet or Mugabe. Pinochet or Mugabe would torture you until you die. With death, you escape their torture. But with God, you never die, you are tortured for eternity.

It's fine that you have that opinion but why do you need to increase the punishment for 'sinners' above what the Bible actually says? If you want to hate Him for His 'ways of doing things' you can do it for what the Bible actually says, rather than what you need it to say to support your dislike of God (which will get you chastised but not thrown into hell). Hell is a small scale version of the Lake but anybody alive in hell for the 1,000 years is also alive in Heaven at Judgment Day. God even considers it as being sent to a place for what is a period of time that God calls 'one day', so far we have been waiting twice that long for a period of thime that will be half that . Having a 'parent' who sends a young child to his room for a day (as a punishment) is not as 'bad' as the one who makes it impossible not break the rules and once the punishment begins they throw away the key so the door can never be opened. God doesn't throw away the key, sooner or later you are going to have to accept that if that is what the Bible promotes.
On earth these days, who is 'tortured more' the ones who die as children (including some 26,000 that die daily from lack of food) or the ones that live to be 100 in a world that just doesn't work quite right, various pains in life caused by other people (and material items like hammer meeting thumb) and the bodies own natural failings.

Quote: Originally Posted by Downhome_WomanView Post

Well that would be silly, wouldn't it? They world certainly didn't start with Judaism, but Judaism is the bedrock of Christianity and Islam. Jesus was born a Jew and died a Jew. He didn't go out to start a new religion - he never 'preached' any new, revolutionary doctrine.His followers started Christianity.

Actually He did change the OT traditions, forgiveness of sin without any 'payment in blood' as in the woman who was not stoned for adultery. Threshing grain for food (rather than profit) and healing the injured on the Sabbath was also 'frowned upon' by the ones making policy, the Temple leaders. He changed who belonged to the term 'my people', Gentiles came under the Royal Law but none of the other ones are 'mandatory'. Remembrance of Jesus comes through reading the Bible, the last supper was the beginning of the change, the physical Temple became obsolete at the cross, that is more than a minor change and the Temple leaders rejected that change.

Col:2:16:
Let no man therefore judge you in meat,
or in drink, or in respect of an holyday,
or of the new moon,
or of the sabbath days:

Quote: Originally Posted by AnnaGView Post

BTW, the only evidence that this Christ charact4er existed is hearsay, last I heard. Hubby and I dug fairly deeply into it for a while.

Let me guess, that didn't even require you getting off your chair. lol

How did that bone dig go in old Jerusalem looking for the bones of the 'unwithered hands' that Jesus healed? You might want to hire Hamas to tunnel in from below rather than try to get a permit from the Gov of blind Jews that actually do not want to hear about Jesus let alone give permission for an endeavor that would prove His existence.

Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

"Years" can be a pretty nebulous quantity in the Bible. Methuselah lived to be 969 of those "years". It says somewhere probably in Genesis that "1000 years is to a day as a day is to 1000 years"- so the word has to be considered in the context it's used.

The 1,000 year is like a day id from Peter in the NT, it references the 1,000 years as Christ's rule as being 'one day' to God and the 'one day being a 1,000 years' is for Judgment Day which lasts 1,000 years our time rather than being just 24 hours long simple because everybody made alive on that day is individually 'chatted to' by God rather than it being a mass event that takes next to no time from start to finish.
Last edited by MHz; May 8th, 2010 at 08:08 AM..
 
Cliffy
#125
Mhz, you are the only person I have ever heard interpreting the bible the way you do. Do you have an in with the big guy. You sound like the biblical version of eanassir.
 
MHz
#126
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

Mhz, you are the only person I have ever heard interpreting the bible the way you do. Do you have an in with the big guy. You sound like the biblical version of eanassir.

Only if you consider opening the book and reading an 'in'.

Slightly different, the Quran supports the NT more that the NT supporting any 'updates' after the last writer of the died. One little verse from Revelation is akin to the staff of Moses where it swallowed up all of Pharaoh's 'staffs'. All of mankind is simply given a 'rating' by God based on the relationships given in Re:2 & 3. Just on that alone it would not be a wise move for a Christian to 'migrate' to another 'version' (Judaism or Muslim) when both of them will becoming members of a 'cleansed Church'. In the very first letter God is threatening to send them to the lake of fire, with that possibility why would anybody want to join that doomed group? Not like there is a big sign above the door to that Church warning of that 'little detail'.

I sometimes wonder why I can bet believers and non-believers to agree on one thing .... that I have no idea what I am talking about as far as the Bible is concerned (for starters).

Perhaps my heritage has something to do with things 50% German, 25% English and, 25% Irish, that is about as conflicting as you can get and still be white. lol

Why I keep reading it is another story.
 
AnnaG
#127
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

"Years" can be a pretty nebulous quantity in the Bible. Methuselah lived to be 969 of those "years". It says somewhere probably in Genesis that "1000 years is to a day as a day is to 1000 years"- so the word has to be considered in the context it's used.

Yeah. Lots of things are open to interpretation. The book is hardly clear on everything it says.
 
AnnaG
#128
Quote: Originally Posted by Downhome_WomanView Post

I dunno - Flavius Josephus mentioned him in his writings - he wasn't Christian, he was a Romanized Jew - and he never became a Christian. I think he existed as a man - do I think he was the Messiah? No - the whole christian concept of Messiah stems from the Jewish prophesy. but as any Jewish scholar. The Messiah isn't an actual physical, warrior messiah - not a 'you might die but your souls are saved' messiah..

And that should read 'IS' an actual physical warrior' messiah.
Lesson? Don't type by the glow of the monitor - turn on the lights ...
LOL!!

I don't know either, but as I said, any evidence has been hearsay. It's kind of strange that we can find stuff belonging to humans from hundreds of thousands of years ago but not a hair, toothbrush, stereo, shoe, chisel, shirt, etc. from someone as well-known as this Jesus was supposed to be.
Besides, there is also evidence that there were about 20 people in that area of the planet with the same name around the same time.
lol about the lights.
 
AnnaG
#129
Quote: Originally Posted by MHzView Post

Feel free to comment on anything the verses actually say.
Maybe I did and you just don't like the answer. Another person who want to rip the Bible apart with the stipulation that any 'defense' cannot use quotes from the Book. lol Too much

Yeah, don't provide any REAL evidence, just hearsay from your book of vagueness.


Quote:

On earth these days, who is 'tortured more' the ones who die as children (including some 26,000 that die daily from lack of food) or the ones that live to be 100 in a world that just doesn't work quite right, various pains in life caused by other people (and material items like hammer meeting thumb) and the bodies own natural failings.

I'd say the ones that have not had the experience with the nastiness. The old ones know what to expect and have developed ways of dealing with it. Young ones are only starting to.


Quote:

The 1,000 year is like a day id from Peter in the NT, it references the 1,000 years as Christ's rule as being 'one day' to God and the 'one day being a 1,000 years' is for Judgment Day which lasts 1,000 years our time rather than being just 24 hours long simple because everybody made alive on that day is individually 'chatted to' by God rather than it being a mass event that takes next to no time from start to finish.

If the Bible is as confused about days and thousands of years, what is the baseline for time in Bible? Does it work on seconds, cubits, quarter time, 4/4 time, hockey periods, or what?
 
MHz
#130
Quote: Originally Posted by AnnaGView Post

If the Bible is as confused about days and thousands of years, what is the baseline for time in Bible? Does it work on seconds, cubits, quarter time, 4/4 time, hockey periods, or what?

Isa:48:14:
All ye,
assemble yourselves,
and hear;
which among them hath declared these things?
The LORD hath loved him:
he will do his pleasure on Babylon,
and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.
 
AnnaG
#131
Quote: Originally Posted by MHzView Post

Isa:48:14:
All ye,
assemble yourselves,
and hear;
which among them hath declared these things?
The LORD hath loved him:
he will do his pleasure on Babylon,
and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.

Oh yeah. That sure cleared things up.
 
JLM
#132
Quote: Originally Posted by AnnaGView Post

Yeah. Lots of things are open to interpretation. The book is hardly clear on everything it says.

Yeah, Anna I'm still beating my head against the wall figuring about Jonah spending three days and night in the black side of the whale. Can you help me out there?
 
MHz
#133
Quote: Originally Posted by AnnaGView Post

Oh yeah. That sure cleared things up.

I even bolded it, lol
The timeline was set even before anything at all was created, that doesn't mean He didn't have a preference which way things would go. At least what was breakable was broke right at the beginning. No passing the blame when there are only one pair of people alive. Same thing with the format of a lot of verse. They are nothing but a list that is still in point form, Scripture is all written in the form that we would call the 'first draft'. The difference, no amount of editing could improve the Bible. Our works could handle many rewrites and they are still flawed. Or you can adopt an attitude like Dex (and many others) and admit to being 'stumped' by a very few 'goat herders' gong back 3,000 years. If that doesn't make us stupid as a 'collective' what would?? lol
 
MHz
#134
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

Yeah, Anna I'm still beating my head against the wall figuring about Jonah spending three days and night in the black side of the whale. Can you help me out there?

Didn't you ask the same thing awhile back. You seemed willing (if it was you) to accept that when Jonah was thrown overboard God had a 'great fish' snatch him in front of a few people and take him to the bottom of the sea where seaweeds held him in death for the stated time, at that time God had a whale pick up the body and spit him out on land in front of the same people that saw him get taken. The reason for the change from fish to whale is because a whale can beach themselves and get back to deep water again. A fish would have had to spit him out in deeper water and in a weakened state Jonah would have died before swimming to shore.
Hope that helps, I can hardly wait for Anna's version.
 
AnnaG
#135
Quote: Originally Posted by MHzView Post

I even bolded it, lol

So "his pleasure" is a unit of measurement? That's nice but it still says nothing. Elaborate please. Or are you saying that this fantastic measurement of time is arbitrary? If it is then there's no way we could know what time means according to the Bible.
Quote:

The timeline was set even before anything at all was created, that doesn't mean He didn't have a preference which way things would go. At least what was breakable was broke right at the beginning. No passing the blame when there are only one pair of people alive.

roflmao One pair of people? That's freakin hilarious.
Quote:

Same thing with the format of a lot of verse. They are nothing but a list that is still in point form, Scripture is all written in the form that we would call the 'first draft'. The difference, no amount of editing could improve the Bible. Our works could handle many rewrites and they are still flawed. Or you can adopt an attitude like Dex (and many others) and admit to being 'stumped' by a very few 'goat herders' gong back 3,000 years. If that doesn't make us stupid as a 'collective' what would?? lol

There's a great big difference between disbelieving something and being baffled by it. roflmao
 
Downhome_Woman
#136
Quote: Originally Posted by AnnaGView Post

Yeah. Lots of things are open to interpretation. The book is hardly clear on everything it says.

It was written for and by the people of that time. they spoke in parable, they used terms, expressions, slang - so THEY understood it- it was meant for them and it was clear it them. and they probably figured that the future wouldn't change much, and whoever read it later on would understand as well.

Think about it - their style of dress stayed pretty much the same over 100s of years - it stands to reason that the way they expressed themselves wouldn't change much either. they also knew the context in which those books were written as well. Unless we study the history, we don't - and because of that don't really understand the stories.

It's like Shakespeare's Hamlet. Hamlet wants to get rid of Ophelia - she's expressing her affection for him and he can't afford to be sidetracked by love so what does he do? He says, "Get thee to a nunnery'. But he's not telling her to find a vocation, he's telling her to get lost because he thinks she's acting like a tramp. And in Shakespeare's time, a slang expression for a brothel. Put's a different spin on it doesn't it?
My point is - the Bible - Old, New - whatever - is obtuse. It wasn't written for us. It was written for people who understood what they were talking about. If we want to understand it then we have to read our history.
 
AnnaG
#137
Quote: Originally Posted by Downhome_WomanView Post

It was written for and by the people of that time. they spoke in parable, they used terms, expressions, slang - so THEY understood it- it was meant for them and it was clear it them. and they probably figured that the future wouldn't change much, and whoever read it later on would understand as well.

They probably didn't even consider any change at all let alone actively think anything would change.
But, I know about contextual circumstances in time. I have a degree in cultural anthro.
Speaking of which, it tells me that any culture will gravitate toward whatever form of dress it deems most aesthetic and practical at the same time. That's not applicable every time and all the time, though; just a rule of thumb.

Quote:

Think about it - their style of dress stayed pretty much the same over 100s of years - it stands to reason that the way they expressed themselves wouldn't change much either. they also knew the context in which those books were written as well. Unless we study the history, we don't - and because of that don't really understand the stories.

Exactly. It isn't that easy sometimes to put oneself in another's shoes.

Quote:

It's like Shakespeare's Hamlet. Hamlet wants to get rid of Ophelia - she's expressing her affection for him and he can't afford to be sidetracked by love so what does he do? He says, "Get thee to a nunnery'. But he's not telling her to find a vocation, he's telling her to get lost because he thinks she's acting like a tramp. And in Shakespeare's time, a slang expression for a brothel. Put's a different spin on it doesn't it?
My point is - the Bible - Old, New - whatever - is obtuse. It wasn't written for us. It was written for people who understood what they were talking about. If we want to understand it then we have to read our history.

Sort of. More specifically, we'd have to research their culture as it was at that time.
 
Cliffy
#138
Why would a god that supposedly created such diversity, write down a bunch of stuff that basically says act this way or suffer? It is absurd to me. If we want to know the truth that is relevant for today, all we have to do is look around at the present. We will know what is right or wrong for us simply by observing life as it is, not by wasting our time trying to understand a history and people that wrote a bunch of stuff thousands of years ago. Not everybody is the same so their conclusions will differ. It doesn't mean they are wrong, just different. Why can't we live with that?
 
AnnaG
#139
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

Why would a god that supposedly created such diversity, write down a bunch of stuff that basically says act this way or suffer? It si obsurd to me. If we want to know the truth that is relevant for today, all we have to do is look around at the present. We will know what is right or wrong for us simply by observing life as it is, not by wasting our time trying to understand a history and people that wrote a bunch of stuff thousands of years ago. Not everybody is the same so their conclusions will differ. It doesn't mean they are wrong, just different. Why can't we live with that?

There's a myriad of reasons; some think they know better than others about the issue, some develop businesses out of the issue, some are just curious about how people back when develop their cultures (like me), etc.
 
Cliffy
#140
Quote: Originally Posted by AnnaGView Post

There's a myriad of reasons; some think they know better than others about the issue, some develop businesses out of the issue, some are just curious about how people back when develop their cultures (like me), etc.

I'm not questioning a healthy curiosity about various cultures, ancient or new. I just never could figure out why people are stuck on a bunch of ancient texts as being the be all and end all to everything sacred.
 
AnnaG
#141
Sheeple don't like to think analytically, long and hard.
 
JLM
#142
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

I'm not questioning a healthy curiosity about various cultures, ancient or new. I just never could figure out why people are stuck on a bunch of ancient texts as being the be all and end all to everything sacred.

I think the answer MAY lie (I myself know nothing for sure) in that a lot of educated, intelligent and reasoning theologians and evangelists like Billy Graham put a lot of stock in it............so while I personally am hesitant about believing a lot of it, by the same token I don't think you can dismiss ALL of it either. While I'm not particularly religious how does one reject the fact that many apparently hopeless alcoholics and druggies found the way back to a clean and productive life through it? It's hard to argue with that.
 
Cliffy
#143
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

I think the answer MAY lie (I myself know nothing for sure) in that a lot of educated, intelligent and reasoning theologians and evangelists like Billy Graham put a lot of stock in it............so while I personally am hesitant about believing a lot of it, by the same token I don't think you can dismiss ALL of it either. While I'm not particularly religious how does one reject the fact that many apparently hopeless alcoholics and druggies found the way back to a clean and productive life through it? It's hard to argue with that.

A crippled person can walk with a crutch. Is that a miracle or what? (sarcasm alert).

Alcoholics and junkies that find religion are just trading one crutch for another. Personally, I wonder about people who think contributing to a society based on mindless consumerism are doing a good thing.
 
JLM
#144
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

A crippled person can walk with a crutch. Is that a miracle or what? (sarcasm alert).

Alcoholics and junkies that find religion are just trading one crutch for another. Personally, I wonder about people who think contributing to a society based on mindless consumerism are doing a good thing.


My answer to that might be "the end justifies the means".
 
Cliffy
#145
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

My answer to that might be "the end justifies the means".

Oh! religion is the end then? I always thought so.
 
JLM
#146
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

Oh! religion is the end then? I always thought so.


Maybe "aspects" of religion.
 
Cliffy
#147
Quote: Originally Posted by JLMView Post

Maybe "aspects" of religion.

To clarify my position, religion is to spirituality what cars are to inter-planetary travel.
 
MHz
#148
Quote: Originally Posted by CliffyView Post

To clarify my position, religion is to spirituality what cars are to inter-planetary travel.

Don't forget to roll up the windows before lift-off.
 
Downhome_Woman
#149
Quote: Originally Posted by AnnaGView Post

They probably didn't even consider any change at all let alone actively think anything would change.
But, I know about contextual circumstances in time. I have a degree in cultural anthro.
Speaking of which, it tells me that any culture will gravitate toward whatever form of dress it deems most aesthetic and practical at the same time. That's not applicable every time and all the time, though; just a rule of thumb.

Exactly. It isn't that easy sometimes to put oneself in another's shoes.

Sort of. More specifically, we'd have to research their culture as it was at that time.

I know you've written a heck of a lot here, and probably my response is somewhat superficial, but I envy you your degree ... such an infinatley interesting bunch of stuff to study ....
 

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