Poland, Keep Crucifixes in Schools

china

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Poland, Keep Crucifixes in Schools

Friday, November 13, 2009



WARSAW, Poland — Heavily Catholic Poland has joined the Vatican in criticizing a European court ruling against the display of crucifixes in Italian schools.
Polish President Lech Kaczynski said his country will never agree to remove crosses from its schools.
The Nov. 3 ruling by the European Court of Human Rights does not require that Poland remove the crosses that hang in most public schools. It could, however, eventually force a review of the use of religious symbols in government-run school across Europe.
The decision touched a nerve in Poland, where religious symbols were banned from public buildings under communist rule but embraced with the return to democracy 20 years ago as an expression of national sovereignty.
During Independence Day celebrations on Wednesday in Warsaw, Kaczynski said that "nobody in Poland will accept the message that you can't hang crosses in schools."
"One shouldn't count on that. Perhaps elsewhere, but never in Poland," said Kaczynski.
Lech Walesa, the pro-democracy dissident and former president — himself a believer who often wears a pin of St. Mary on his lapel — also defended his country's right to display a symbol central to the nation's Christian heritage.
"Minorities must know their place," Walesa said on Thursday during an interview with a TVN24 television station. "We must respect minorities but also protect the rights of the majority."
About 90 percent of Poles are Catholic, and regular church attendance today remains much higher than in more secular Western Europe.
Poles' strong identification with the church goes back centuries but in recent decades has been strengthened by Polish-born Pope John Paul II, who led the church for 27 years until his death in 2005.
The Vatican has also denounced the European court's ruling.
 

Blackleaf

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Oct 9, 2004
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It's just typical of the EUSSR to stick its noses into other people's business. Catholic countries such as Italy have been hanging crucifixes on the walls of homes, schools and hospitals for centuries. Brussels should butt out.
 

L Gilbert

Winterized
Nov 30, 2006
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Does Poland claim to be secular? Does Poland even consider being secular or tolerant important?
This sounds just like those strata titled places and "gated communities" in the Okanagan where you buy a house and your neighbors tell you what colors you can paint your house, that bush you want to plant is forbidden, etc.
If Poland wants to be secular, that's fine, if it wants to allow crosses, stars, or place Buddha statues all over then that's its business.
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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No wonder Poles yearn to get out and why it is a third world country.

FYI, Poland is among the fastest growing economies in the EU. Granted, it may be in part owing to its being poor and thus able to undersell the competition. But regardless of the reason, if it is the fastest growing economy in Europe, it won't remain poor for long.
 

Avro

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Feb 12, 2007
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FYI, Poland is among the fastest growing economies in the EU. Granted, it may be in part owing to its being poor and thus able to undersell the competition. But regardless of the reason, if it is the fastest growing economy in Europe, it won't remain poor for long.

Still my statement is true.
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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Still my statement is true.

Maybe, but if you're suggesting that Crucifixes in the classroom are the reason for its underdevelopment, then how do you explain Ontario's economic development while it has crucifixes in its public school classrooms too?

I'm not saying I agree with Ontario's or Poland's positions on moral grounds necessarily, but am simply saying that it' simplistic to relate a crucifix in a public school classroom with economic development so simplistically.
 

Avro

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Maybe, but if you're suggesting that Crucifixes in the classroom are the reason for its underdevelopment, then how do you explain Ontario's economic development while it has crucifixes in its public school classrooms too?

I'm not saying I agree with Ontario's or Poland's positions on moral grounds necessarily, but am simply saying that it' simplistic to relate a crucifix in a public school classroom with economic development so simplistically.

Ontario is not a country and we just rejected provincial funding for private religious schools, while we still fund catholic schools, this isn't nation wide nor is it very popular.

Only a matter of time before we cut ties to fair tales.
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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Ontario is not a country and we just rejected provincial funding for private religious schools, while we still fund catholic schools, this isn't nation wide nor is it very popular.

Only a matter of time before we cut ties to fair tales.

So if crucifixes in the classroom were a local government issue in Poland, that would be totally different from it being supported by the national government, and suddently Poland would have been rich?

Let's not forget the beating Poland has gotten over the last century. It had been colonized by the Russians, and then the Nazis. It had also undergone its own ethnic unrest prior to WWI. And of course it was trapped within the Warsaw Pact until recently. It took many lickings and keeps on tickin'. I suspect that has more to do with its relative poverty than the issue of crucifixes in the classroom. Poland has a lot of catching up to do, as I'm sure we would had we undergone the same beating.

Now as for support for Catholic schools in Ontario, dream on. The Progressive Conservatives, the Liberals, and even the NDP support the public Catholic system. Even the Progressive Conservative proposal of funding private religious schools was intended as a supplement to and not as a substitute for public Catholic schools. The Green Party is the only one I know of in Ontario that opposes the pubic Catholic school system, and look at how many votes it got. Make no mistake about it. Though I disagree with special privileges for certain religious groups, support for this special status is strong and healthy in Ontario. And considering that Ontario contains about 25% of the national population, that means a significant percentage of our population supports crucifixes in public school classrooms. So are we really that much different from our Polish counterparts?
 

Avro

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Feb 12, 2007
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Ontario is hardly local government.

Clinging to the past will keep anybody down.

Fairy tales included.

If it's so great move there.
 

Machjo

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Oct 19, 2004
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Clinging to the past will keep anybody down.

Fairy tales included.

If it's so great move there.

What are you talking about? I do live in Ontario, FYI. And it ticks me off to no end that the population of Ontario chooses to support this injustice. However, your assertion that this will automatically keep our economy down is ludicrous. Ontario is still part of the developed world in spite of its medieval Catholic school policy.
 

Avro

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Feb 12, 2007
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What are you talking about? I do live in Ontario, FYI. And it ticks me off to no end that the population of Ontario chooses to support this injustice. However, your assertion that this will automatically keep our economy down is ludicrous. Ontario is still part of the developed world in spite of its medieval Catholic school policy.

Yet you defend the Poles.

Interesting.

I was in England not to long agao and many Poles have fled there beause they hated life in Poland....as did china.

My new neigbor is from Ploand and he couldn't imagine moving back to that ****hole (his words) so I'll take from the real to the dreams of some.

Btw the more we remove the grand fairytales from society the better grip we will have on reality.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Yet you defend the Poles.

Interesting.

I was in England not to long agao and many Poles have fled there beause they hated life in Poland....as did china.

My new neigbor is from Ploand and he couldn't imagine moving back to that ****hole (his words) so I'll take from the real to the dreams of some.

Btw the more we remove the grand fairytales from society the better grip we will have on reality.

When did I ever defend the Poles. You implied that their economy was a mess because of the crucifixes in the public school classrooms. I already said I don't necessarily agree with that (just scroll up to see for yourself), and I myself strongly oppose Ontario's special privileges for Catholics. I'm just saying that the idea that Poland is poor specifically because of the crucifixes in the classroom is overly simplistic. Of course it may play a role in that some wealthy non-Catholics would leave. However, that would be a small impact. Sure it may play a role in Poland's economic development, but to say that crucifixes are the very reason or the primary reason for Poland's lack of development can be sustained when we consider Ontario has a similar policy. And I don't oppose Ontario's Catholic school policy on economic grounds either, but rather on moral grounds, though granted in the case of Ontario it would likely save on bureaucracy too.
 

In Between Man

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Sep 11, 2008
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Go ahead and remove the cross from all schools. Take down the ten commandments from public property and remove "God" from the anthems and pledge of allegiance.

Do whatever the atheists want to make society "better", because the fact remains that God is actually the one in control, and their escape is futile.
 
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