Bail out the Big 3?

dancing-loon
Avatar
#31
Quote: Originally Posted by Scott FreeView Post

The game is to blame labour but the real culprit is return on investment.

If you have a factory that costs 400 million and costs millions to run then you better get a good return otherwise it's better to close the plant and invest somewhere else. Capitalists view labour as an expense which eats into their ROI so no matter what labourers get paid it is always too much. They just don't seem to be able to get over the whole slavery thing - they want the good times back.

They sure do!!

5 Salaries of Auto Industry CEOs
Auto industry CEOs in the United States and around the world are raking in big bucks

1. Rick Wagoner, General Motors: Wagoner received $14.4 million in compensation in 2007, including a salary of $1.56 million.

2. Alan Mulally, Ford: His compensation in 2007 was $21.7 million, with a salary of $2 million.

3. Wendelin Wiedeking, Porsche: He is thought to have earned more than ¤60 million ($89 million) last year.

4. Carlos Ghosn, Renault-Nissan: In 2006, he took home $45.5 million.

5. Dieter Zetsche, Daimler: Forbes calculates his total compensation to be €8,550,000.

Sources: Bloomberg, Motor Authority, Forbes, The Guardian
 
darkbeaver
Avatar
#32
General Motors, The New York Times and Marxism 101

By Shamus Cooke

--, November 24, 2008

As Socialists, we are consistently asked to present our ideas in a clearer, easier to understand manner. To achieve this goal, I’ll enlist the help of former Governor of Massachusetts and candidate for the Republican Presidential nomination, Mitt Romney, who appeared in the New York Times Op-Ed section on Nov. 19th.

Romney’s piece, entitled “Let Detroit Go Broke,” laid bare the intent behind the angry rhetoric used by politicians against the proposed bailout for the “Big Three” automakers. Whereas the giant Wall Street banks received over 1 trillion dollars – so far— without barely having to ask, an industry that actually produces something has to beg for a handout. Why the difference?

Romney doesn’t mix words, and makes it known that money can’t simply be thrown at the Big Three: they have to fix the problems that landed them in this mess. It soon becomes clear that the biggest problem needing fixing is the wages and benefits of the autoworkers.

“First, their [the automakers] huge disadvantage in costs relative to foreign brands must be eliminated. That means new labor agreements to align pay and benefits to match those of workers at competitors like BMW, Honda, Nissan and Toyota. Furthermore, retiree benefits must be reduced so that the total burden per auto for domestic makers is not higher than that of foreign producers.”

Conclusions such as these are inescapable within a market economy Marx gave similar examples long ago to explain how competition between capitalists inevitably forced an attack on the workers, since it is more difficult to cut the costs of raw materials and machines.

To accomplish the destruction of workers’ wages, Romney demands new management, too, and says that “the new management must work with labor leaders to see that the enmity between labor and management comes to an end”. This has always been a dream of the capitalist: eliminating the hostility of workers towards management, especially when management is hell-bent on destroying workers’ standard of living. Unfortunately for shareholders, class conflict is inherent in an economic system that is divided between workers and owners.

The bureaucracy which controls the autoworkers union (UAW) has done its best to dampen this intrinsic conflict. The UAW “leaders” have “cooperated” in drastically lowering workers’ wages and benefits, and as recently as last year, pushed through a devastating contract for workers.

But it wasn’t enough.

Romney—and the corporate establishment as a whole are demanding that the Big Three declare bankruptcy so that existing labor contracts can be torn up. Then the real “restructuring” will begin.

The lack of compassion that the ruling class shows for the families that would be affected by such polices shouldn’t come as a surprise. An economic system that produces goods for a market— instead of social need— will always produce similar outrages to the conscience.

As the economic crisis deepens, similar attacks on workers will develop. This is foreshadowed by Romney’s comment, “Companies in the 21st century cannot perpetuate the destructive labor relations of the 20th.” In the same paragraph Romney implies that unions in general are to blame for the sad state of the economy. This is not merely the opinion of one man, but one social class. Again it should be stated: the current crisis is being used as a justification for an unprecedented assault on the living standards of workers, to begin with the auto industry.

A defeat for the autoworkers in this fight will set a devastating precedent for workers all over the country. It is the absolute duty of every working-class person to stand in solidarity with the autoworkers in their coming struggle. It is likewise in the interest of all who work for a wage to oppose the continuing bailout of the Big Banks at taxpayer expense. Taxing the Super Rich is the common sense solution to the problem you’ll never hear from a politician’s mouth.




"Go ahead **** on labour. There's nothing stupider than ****ting on unionized labour if your not of the capitalist class, the wealthy love you, you're to stupid to believe. The owners will reward you with wage and benifit cuts and longer hours and if you suck right they'll find a dirty low paying dangerous job for your children too. The economy can't be fixed by chopping the take home of labour as a matter of fact it accellarates the decline by keeping purchasing power from circulation at the bottom where it is most needed.
Rubbung the rich will get you nothing but chapped hands a pat on the head and a bag of wet dreams." DB
 
scratch
#33
I agree with Romney. Period.
 
Northboy
Avatar
#34
Some things are best dealt with through the bankruptcy courts.

An old lenders saying, "The first loss is the least loss".
 
Nuggler
Avatar
#35
Quote: Originally Posted by taxslaveView Post

I am against bailing out any business with tax dollars, and even more so to bail out foreign owned companies. Should also be careful what you ask for. Look what happened to the Softwood lumber deal when that TRAITOR Emmerson decided to "help" us. Not only did we get screwed but he gave a billion dollars of the industries money to the US timber Barons in exchange for a worse deal than we had before he decided to help.
If we were to help the Auto Industry what guarantees do we have that Canadian workers would benefit and the money would not simply flow back to the parent company shareholders? Or that they wold ever build good ,fuel efficient vehicles that we can afford?


Welcome to CC, Taxslave. Good points. That software lumber deal was a dandy, no. My BP goes way way up every time I think of it. Thanks for reminding me......................kidding. And, "they", our government told us it was a GOOD DEAL!!! Christ, would I ever like to play some poker with those fools.

I notice Harpo, in his speeches, keeps saying he hopes there's no pressure to abrogate the NAFTA...........like it's a good thing. All we're seeing in Canada is factories closing and jobs going south or China. And he doesn't want to "abrogate' NAFTA.

Whatever.
 
Trex
#36
I guess it somewhat depends on whether or not your an American.

Workers in the American Big 3 assembly plants are considered "force or worker multiplier's".
Each American auto worker represents an additional 7.5 workers.
The other guys who make the tires, the radios, the paint,the wiring, the upholstery, the oil and refinery guys who make the gas and diesel and so on and so forth.

Compare that to a lawyer or banker. Those guys are lucky if their multiplier is 2.

So the potential job losses are enormous.
Bailing out the companies could be cheaper than than resultant welfare and social security costs if they close.

Obama has promised change and a "new and improved" USA.
I think his hands are tied.
Plus he is an interventionist.
He will bail out GM and Ford and let Dodge fail.

I also think that Obama is no friend of Canada's.
His bail out package will include provisions that the saved jobs will all be American.
Which is fair enough.
However it also means the Canadian plants will be relocating south of the border.
Should we Canadians try and cut a deal with Obama and kick in some funding to save some jobs?
Or let it all go?

Trex
 
Nuggler
Avatar
#37
Dunno, Trex.

Any bail out would have to make definite positive arrangements for the well being of factory workers affected. That's just my opinion, and I don't know what they would be. The big 3 or the gov. should not be allowed just to chuck the workers, although that seems to be the Canadian way.

Especially if they can be denigrated as "union" workers, and as such, deserve a pile of poop upon their heads. I'm still waiting for this one. Won't be long till Harpo divides and conquers.

Return EI to UI, at the old rates and qualifying times, and welfare to its' former self. Would be a start, but employment is what's needed, roads, infrastructure, etc. Cain't see that happening with a talk talk no walk Con govt. Unfortunate.
 
normbc9
Avatar
#38
Stop and trhink about the US rules on bankruptcy. If the big files for Chapter 11 they get to continue to stay in business, reorganize the business structure and keep the employees working. Also, they simply have to renegotiate the labor contracts they have with the UAW here in the US. That is like an anchor around their neck. But also, about one third of their management force has to go too. I agree about the impacts this could have on the Canadian auto group and workers. The idea that this could be a NAFTA violation is sure worth exploring too. I'm now finding out that the totals of the non-transparent "rescue" monies is rapidly approaching $7.7 trillion US dollars. Everyone is not being told the whole story. Where does it stop??
 
SirJosephPorter
#39
Quote: Originally Posted by scratchView Post

I agree with Romney. Period.

So do I. Unions have made some concessions, but not nearly enough. Wages are still too high for the big 3 compared to other automakers, I think it is 70 $ per hour compared to 48 $ per hour.

As to the high compensation received by the top management, that is definitely an issue and any government help to the big 3 should be conditional on management limiting its compensation.

But I think Chapter 11 is the only way to solve all these problems in a short period of time. Under chapter 11, everything is up of grabs. Divisions which are not making profits could be shut down fairly quickly, workforce reduced, management brought under control and the emerging company probably will be lot smaller, but much more efficient and able to survive in the market.
 
lone wolf
Avatar
#40
Our labour force can go from 25 bucks an hour to minimum wage and that's not going to hurt business and investors. The economy? That just means rich are getting richer. Bail-outs? To hell with them. Let the greed at the top feel a pinch for a change.
Last edited by lone wolf; Nov 26th, 2008 at 12:13 PM..
 
scratch
#41
The rich could not survive, they would be jumping out windows!
 
lone wolf
Avatar
#42
Quote: Originally Posted by scratchView Post

The rich could not survive, they would be jumping out windows!

Oh ... the ones on the very top of the shytheap never feel it. That's where the money goes and it's they who pull the strings.
 
EagleSmack
Avatar
#43
Quote: Originally Posted by Scott FreeView Post



The aviation industry is keeping their technology within our capacity to pay so why can't the auto industry?

They're next Scott. Once these big corporations see there is free money to augment their expenses they will be in crisis too!
 
SirJosephPorter
#44
Quote: Originally Posted by scratchView Post

The rich could not survive, they would be jumping out windows!

Scratch, rich don't jump out the windows, it is only stock market speculators, those who speculate on borrowed money, who jump out the window when things don't go right.
 
Nuggler
Avatar
#45
I just jumped out of ours,. Fortunately I was in the basement at the time.

..........whew............close!!!
 
scratch
#46
Quote: Originally Posted by SirJosephPorterView Post

Scratch, rich don't jump out the windows, it is only stock market speculators, those who speculate on borrowed money, who jump out the window when things don't go right.

Okay Joe,

What goes around ,comes around.

scratch
 
GreenFish66
Avatar
#47
Ford turns in finacial plan?

Actually the finacial plan Sounds pretty good !From what I've heard ...I am suprised! .Too good to be true?....This ,I fear this will be the last chance Ford/GM/Chrysler will have to turn things positively around!....Better not screw it up !...Remember it is just a loan!

Now Ford as well as the others ..have gotta sell some cars, cause this really could be their last chance to move forward!..

Alternative efficient vehicles I feel ,is the key to success...Many agree!...
Last edited by GreenFish66; Dec 2nd, 2008 at 01:27 PM..Reason: 1 last Chance?
 
scratch
#48
Unfortunately the big 3 got out of the gate too late and IMO if they are not bailed well...

rgs
scratch
 
Trex
#49
Assuming the coalition gets in power.
The big three has got it made.
Farting through silk so to speak.

The coalition is going to pump a minimum of $30 billion into Ontario and Quebec.
And the Big three will get around half of it.
After all Jack will be running the show now.

Even if the plants shut down.
The union workers will probably continue to get their $50/hour or $75/hour or whatever the Canadians get.
It's gonna be like winning the lottery in Oshawa.
Trex
 
GreenFish66
Avatar
#50
Both good points...Hmmmmmm?...

.A cnn poll says most people still think the auto companies would be better off left to their own vices.Bancruptcy-40%...40% said no bail out...17% say yes!....

Don't take my word for it though..I am not 100% certain !...certain about the 40% saying "Let'm go bankrupt"....I kinda like what the like what the auto leaders are saying...Can they be trusted..This Time?
 

Similar Threads

2
How the Bail Out Works
by Albertabound | Nov 7th, 2008
138
America's bail out
by B00Mer | Oct 6th, 2008
2
Edgar Ray Killen Freed on Bail
by Vanni Fucci | Aug 14th, 2005
no new posts