Israel launches air strikes, ground forces into Gaza

CBC News

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Israel launched air strikes into Gaza Thursday, killing at least six people and wounding dozens, as ground forces moved in to prevent repeated militant rocket attacks.

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Liberalman

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This is why Isreal is shelling Gaza.
These things hurt
It is widely reported that Hizballah possesses over 5,000 Katyusha rockets


BM-13 launcher based on a ZiS-6 truck,


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Katyusha_rockets_closeup.jpg
Close-up view of 132-mm M-13 rockets, on

The design was relatively simple, consisting of racks of parallel rails on which rockets were mounted, with a folding frame to raise the rails to launch position. Each truck had between 14 and 48 launchers. The 132-mm diameter M-13 rocket of the BM-13 system was 180 centimetres (5.9 ft) long, 13.2 centimetres (5.2 inches) in diameter and weighed 42 kilograms (92 lb). It was propelled by a solid nitrocellulose-based propellant of tubular shape, arranged in a steel-case rocket engine with a single central nozzle at the bottom end. The rocket was stabilised by cruciform fins of pressed sheet steel. The warhead, either fragmentation, high-explosive or shaped-charge, weighed around 22 kg (48 lb). The range of the rockets was about 5.4 kilometres (3.4 mi). Later, 82-mm diameter M-8 and 300-mm diameter M-30 rockets were also developed.
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
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This is why Isreal is shelling Gaza.
These things hurt
It is widely reported that Hizballah possesses over 5,000 Katyusha rockets


BM-13 launcher based on a ZiS-6 truck,



Close-up view of 132-mm M-13 rockets, on

The design was relatively simple, consisting of racks of parallel rails on which rockets were mounted, with a folding frame to raise the rails to launch position. Each truck had between 14 and 48 launchers. The 132-mm diameter M-13 rocket of the BM-13 system was 180 centimetres (5.9 ft) long, 13.2 centimetres (5.2 inches) in diameter and weighed 42 kilograms (92 lb). It was propelled by a solid nitrocellulose-based propellant of tubular shape, arranged in a steel-case rocket engine with a single central nozzle at the bottom end. The rocket was stabilised by cruciform fins of pressed sheet steel. The warhead, either fragmentation, high-explosive or shaped-charge, weighed around 22 kg (48 lb). The range of the rockets was about 5.4 kilometres (3.4 mi). Later, 82-mm diameter M-8 and 300-mm diameter M-30 rockets were also developed.

These rockets are completely unguided. Even the people firing them don't know where they are gonna go other than the general direction. They are guaranteed to hit the ground....somewhere:roll:
Owning 5,000 Katyusha rockets is more of a liability than an asset.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Israel has been bombing Gaza since long before Gaza militants possessed Katusha rockets. Israel will continue bombing Gaza even if Gaza militants stop firing their ineffective rockets at Israel.

What's going on here really is that Israel will tend to support whichever side is loosing in order to keep Gaza in a constant state of civil war. While Gaza militants are busy fighting with each other, they have less ability to attack Israel.


Abbas forces get weapons shipment

Seventeen Palestinians have been killed in recent factional fighting


Forces loyal to Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas have received an arms shipment from Egypt with Israeli approval.
A senior Israeli military official, Amos Gilad, said the shipment aimed to reinforce the "forces of peace" against the "forces of darkness".
Neither Egyptian nor Palestinian officials have confirmed the shipment.
Israeli officials said they approved the shipment of 2,000 rifles, 20,000 ammunition clips and 2 million bullets.

The shipment comes at a very sensitive time. Over the last month, 17 Palestinians have been killed in violence between the Fatah faction, led by Mr Abbas, and Hamas, which leads the Palestinian government. The arms shipment came less than a week after the Palestinian president held talks with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert.

Israeli officials have said they support strengthening Mr Abbas against the militant group, Hamas.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6216365.stm

28/12/2006
Israeli defense official: Fatah arms transfer bolsters forces of peace
By Amos Harel and Avi Issacharoff, Haaretz Correspondents, Haaretz Service, and Agencies
Amos Gilad, head of political military policy at the Defense Ministry, told Israel Radio on Thursday that the assistance provided to Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas' Presidential Guard is aimed at reinforcing the forces of peace in the area...

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/806603.html

Israel Confirms Arms Shipment Sent to Aid Abbas

JERUSALEM, Dec. 28 — After coordination with Israel and the United States, Egypt has sent a shipment of weapons and ammunition into the Gaza Strip to forces loyal to the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas of Fatah, Israeli officials said today...

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/28/w...112b97f1b79993&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

Anyone else notice how peaceful Gaza has become since Israel and the US approved arms shipments to Fatah?

Also, anyone notice that the IDF has only been hitting Hamas targets. Looks to me like the IDF and Fatah are cooperating.

It wouldn't surprise me if some of the unknown gunmen who have assassinated both Hamas and Fatah leaders are working for the Israelis. The assassinations seem designed to provoke continued civil war.

If Fatah comes out on top thanks to Israeli/American support they will likely sell out millions of nationless Palestinians refugees and accept a peace agreement with Israel on Israel's terms. Meanwhile the civil war continues according to plan.
 
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Zzarchov

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Aug 28, 2006
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These rockets are completely unguided. Even the people firing them don't know where they are gonna go other than the general direction. They are guaranteed to hit the ground....somewhere:roll:
Owning 5,000 Katyusha rockets is more of a liability than an asset.


Unguided only matters if you are firing at a small or specific target. If your target is say "A city" or "a suburb" then its fine.

Its Russian design "Can't hit the target? Build a bigger blast so you hit it anyways". Same reason their ICBMS were so dangerous despite being less advanced.

Your trying to impart your moral system of "Soldiers and Civilians" to people who don't have that same moral outlook and instead have "Enemy people".

And to an extent it makes sense, every single Israeli adult is in theory a soldier in reserves (barring some of the religious exemptions) with training and a gun. Every Israeli child is no more than 18 years from becoming a soldier.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Try seeing both sides.

For Israelis the problem is more economic.

Economic costs of Kassams at NIS 60m



Direct and indirect financial costs of the Kassams falling in Sderot have reached NIS 60 million and over 150 employees have abandoned their jobs at manufacturing plants, the Manufacturers Association of estimated Thursday.

"Twenty-five percent of the plants there are transferring their business activities to safer locations," spokesman Avi Karmi told The Jerusalem Post. "The numbers are dismal. Eighty percent suffer from non-arrivals due to the Kassams and there is a sharp decrease in production."...

...The streets of Sderot were empty save the lone taxi or rare shopper. Thursday, a usually bustling day in preparation for Shabbat, found store owners staring at empty shops as they idly waited for someone to come out and buy something...

...As striking as the empty stores were the number of shops that were not open at all. By sight, half of the stores were closed and many more pulled down the metal grates across their glass doors as the day progressed...

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?apage=2&cid=1178708629119&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

Israelis affected by Gaza rockets can close shop and leave. Where do people from Gaza go?


This article shows both sides.
From The Sunday Times
May 20, 2007
Rod Liddle

I’ve looked at life from both sides now

I spent a week with Jewish settlers and a week with Palestinians to see if there is any chance of peace in a tormented land


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article1812941.ece

Did you catch how the Palestinian neighbors lost their home? That is the root cause of the violence.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/jerusalem.html

Meanwhile Israeli airstrikes have ended the civil war and unified the various factions:

Israel fires missiles at Gaza amid uneasy Hamas-Fatah cease-fire
The Associated Press
May 20, 2007


http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/05/20/africa/mideast.1-57047.php

May 20, 2007 - 3:42 PM

Israel decides to "intensify" Gaza strikes
By Jeffrey Heller

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israel decided on Sunday to step up strikes against Gaza militants involved in rocket attacks against southern Israel, but stopped short of ordering a wider offensive in the coastal strip, officials said...


http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/intern...l?siteSect=143&sid=7831457&cKey=1179676356000
 

Just the Facts

House Member
Oct 15, 2004
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They are in Lebanon.

Yes, but they're based in Iran. :cool:

Actually I was reading a few weeks ago that there appears to be a fair bit of cooperation between Hamas and the Hezbo's. Certainly in the area of training, and arms shipments are very likely taking place.

We all know that Hizboallah is a division of the Iranian Military, by Syrian proxy.
 

Just the Facts

House Member
Oct 15, 2004
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Israel has been bombing Gaza since long before Gaza militants possessed Katusha rockets. Israel will continue bombing Gaza even if Gaza militants stop firing their ineffective rockets at Israel.

Of course we'll never be able to test that theory, because the "Militants" will never, ever, stop firing their rockets at Israel. This by their own admission, it's not my opinion, it's their declaration.

What's going on here really is that Israel will tend to support whichever side is loosing in order to keep Gaza in a constant state of civil war. While Gaza militants are busy fighting with each other, they have less ability to attack Israel.

So as long as they are beng sent weapons they have no choice but to keep killing each other? Bizarre.

Meanwhile the civil war continues according to plan.

So the fighting between Fatah and Hamas is nothing more than another evil Zionist plot?
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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Just the Facts:
Of course we'll never be able to test that theory, because the "Militants" will never, ever, stop firing their rockets at Israel. This by their own admission, it's not my opinion, it's their declaration.

Palestinian militant groups have declared ceasefires on several occasions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudna

Some of them were unilateral:
...many major Palestinian suicide bombings since 2001 have come in retaliation for Israeli assassinations, many of which occurred when the Palestinians were mulling over or abiding by self-imposed restraint.
To give three examples: On July 31, 2001, Israel's assassination of the two leading Hamas militants in Nablus ended a nearly two-month Hamas cease-fire, leading to the terrible August 9 Hamas suicide bombing in a Jerusalem pizzeria. On July 22, 2002, an Israeli air attack on a crowded apartment block in Gaza City killed a senior Hamas leader, Salah Shehada, and fourteen civilians, nine of them children, hours before a widely reported unilateral cease-fire declaration. A suicide bombing followed on August 4. On June 10, 2003, Israel's attempted assassination of the senior Hamas political leader in Gaza, Abdel-Aziz al-Rantisi, which wounded him and killed four Palestinian civilians, led to a bus bombing in Jerusalem on June 11 that killed sixteen Israelis....

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060717/bishara

Ehud Olmert Speaks To Sky

Updated: 08:32, Monday June 12, 2006
<H2>In an exclusive interview with Sky's Middle East Correspondent Emma Hurd, Israel's Prime Minister Ehud Olmert speaks of the chance of new peace talks with the Palestinians, the threat posed by Iran, and the legacy of his predecessor, Ariel Sharon.

</H2>
Ehud Olmert

The interview was conducted in Jerusalem ahead of his planned tour of Europe which will include a meeting with Prime Minister Tony Blair.
It is hardly the best backdrop to the Israeli Prime Minister's visit to London: A young Palestinian girl screaming over the body of her dead father, while ambulance workers collected the bloody remains of six other members of her family.
They had been enjoying a picnic on Gaza's beach when they were hit by an Israeli artillery attack on Friday. Israel quickly admitted its mistake and apologised, but the damage was done.
The Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) declared the incident a "massacre" and Hamas announced an end to its sixteen month ceasefire with a hail of rocket fire. So much for the chance of new peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1224352,00.html

During that 16 month Hamas ceasefire, Israel refused to negotiate with Hamas and assassinated Hamas leaders. How long was Hamas supposed to maintain a unilateral ceasefire? By the way, Hamas's unilateral ceasefire rarely made the news, because it started right after they were elected and our news was too busy trying to demonize Hamas and a Hamas unilateral ceasefire didn't fit the image the media was selling us.

Remember the May 2003 roadmap to peace? That ceasefire was on condition that Israel also ceasefiring and stop seizing Palestinian land. Yet Israel continued seizing land and launching raids into Gaza and the west bank killing Palestinians in violation of their obligations. After about a month of observing a ceasefire unilaterally, some militant groups withdrew from the ceasefire. Hamas unilaterally maintained the ceasefire for over a year despite Israeli targetted assassinations of their members, including the Hamas leader who got the other militant groups to agree to a ceasefire.

Most people don't know how the roadmap to peace got lost. Israel accepted the roadmap on May 25, 2003. On June 4, Hamas moderate Abu Shanab got all the Palestinian militant groups to agree to a ceasefire. But just when it looked like peace was about to break out, Israel attempted to assassinate a Hamas leader on June 10. That violation triggered a suicide bombing in response on June 11. The timeline is here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/page/0,,850553,00.html

More information on the events at that time:
Hamas vows to 'tear Israel to pieces' after Gaza attack
SA'ID GHAZALI in Jerusalem
RUPERT CORNWELL in Washington
Independent, 13 June 2003

Hamas vowed yesterday to "blow up the Zionist entity and tear it to pieces" as Israeli helicopters patrolled the skies over Gaza to hunt down Palestinian militants in one of the most crowded cities in the world.

Speaking after an Israeli rocket attack that killed seven people, including a senior Hamas militant, Mahmoud al-Zahar, the Hamas leader, said the movement would "launch a series of new attacks against the Israeli people by the youths of Palestine. This crime will not pass without punishment.''

Activists from Yasser Arafat's mainstream movement said they were siding with the Islamic militants of Hamas. Hussein al Sheikh, a Fatah leader in Ramallah, said: "This is a bloody war against the Palestinian people. [The] Fatah movement stands with the Palestinian people in the resistance against the occupation.''

The dramatic hardening of their position came after Ariel Sharon, the Israeli Prime Minister, promised at an emergency cabinet meeting to press ahead with attacks against Hamas. His language seemed to doom the US-sponsored road-map for peace in the Middle East, which calls for an end to violence as a first step.

Israeli forces thrust into Gaza yesterday after their botched attempt to kill Abdel Aziz al-Rantisi, Hamas's political leader, on Tuesday, which terrified the people of Gaza City as they went about their business. "We live in panic,'' Halima al-Ghoul, 55, said. "I do not know whether it is safe to ride a car or walk.''

Traffic stopped each time aircraft appeared and people got out of their cars, fearing another rocket attack. "We believe in fate,'' Khaled Jondia, 33, said. She was selling baby clothes in Shajia market when yesterday's attack happened.

In Jerusalem, Israeli police set up more checkpoints in Arab neighbourhoods, searching people and checking their identity cards.

Yesterday's attack - in retaliation for the worst suicide bombing in six months, which killed 16 people on a bus in Jerusalem on Wednesday - came after the funeral of 10 Palestinians who were killed on Wednesday night by Israeli helicopters. They fired missiles at targets in Sabra, where Ahmed Yassin, Hamas's spiritual leader, lives. Hamas claimed responsibility for Wednesday's bus bombing.

Mr Sharon has served notice that he will continue to strike at suspected Palestinian terrorists as and when he chooses, whatever the damage to the road-map. Israeli officials say Hamas leaders, including Sheikh Yassin, are not immune from retaliation.

Nabil Amr, the moderate Palestinian cabinet spokes-man, blamed the government of Israel for starting the tit-for-tat violence after the Aqaba summit, attended by President George Bush, which endorsed the road-map.
"As a Palestinian citizen and a Palestinian Authority member, I say today's attack is deliberate. It is a new war waged by Sharon. The consequences will be grave. Sharon is the one who started it," Mr Amr said yesterday.
In Washington, it was announced that Colin Powell, the US Secretary of State, will hold talks at the end of next week aimed at rescuing the floundering road-map plan.

The descent into violence has been a bitter blow for President Bush, barely a week after he stood alongside Mr Sharon and Abu Mazen, the Palestinian Prime Minister, in the Jordanian resort of Aqaba. The two prime ministers had embraced the plan, providing for a comprehensive two-state settlement by the end of 2005.

Mr Bush is now being criticised both at home and abroad as the plan sinks deeper into trouble. General Powell is planning new talks in Aqaba, probably on 22 June, with senior representatives of Russia, the UN and the EU, co-sponsors of the road-map with the US .

But their room for manoeuvre, diplomats say, is very limited. Mr Bush is in a position familiar to many US presidents who have wrestled unsuccessfully with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict - he is facing a choice between giving up on an initiative that seems doomed to fail, or committing himself even more intensely, with no guarantee of success.

His predicament is compounded by complaints from Capitol Hill and the Israeli lobby there at what is seen as undue pressure on Israel, target of an unusually blunt presidential rebuke after its attempt to assassinate Mr Rantisi on Tuesday. That attack followed the killing of four Israeli soldiers in Gaza. In response to Israel's attack, Hamas launched the suicide bombing in Jerusalem, drawing yet more deadly reprisals from Israel.

Mr Bush said he was "deeply troubled" by the strike against Mr Rantisi, which was said to be in breach of an understanding reached with Mr Sharon at the Aqaba summit. In doing so, however, the White House has stirred up trouble at home...

http://www.fromoccupiedpalestine.org/node/717


In addition to Israel's constant violence directed at Palestinians regardless of whether they wre abiding by ceasefires or not, at no time did Israel ever stop seizing Palestinian land and expanding Jewish only settlements in violation of the roadmap to peace and international law:


...Israeli settlement activity is also at the heart of Hamas' refusal to "recognize Israel's right to exist." Israel's "right to exist" is actually a rather vague demand. Would official recognition of Israel imply recognition of her "facts on the ground" and current settlements in the West Bank? Would recognition of Israel be understood to include accepting Israel's Wall that snakes well into Palestinian territory?

What has been overlooked in the clamor for official recognition of Israel's right to exist has been Israel's refusal to recognize Palestine's right to exist. While Ariel Sharon was signing on to the Roadmap to Peace, there was no mention of the fact that his party, Likud, had as part of its official platform that "the Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river." ( www.knesset.gov.il/elections/knesset15/elikud_m.htm ). When Ehud Olmert addressed the US Congress on May 24th of this year he talked of the land of Israel's forefathers: "I believed, and to this day still believe, in our people's eternal and historic right to this entire land." Who has no partner for peace?....


http://www.nhpeaceaction.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=109&Itemid=48

Clearly, Israel's leaders are committed to the elimination of any possibility that Palestinians will ever have their own nation.

By the way, the moderate Palestinian leader, Abu Shanab, who successfully got all the three main militant groups to agree to a ceasefire back in June 2003? He was the first person Israel assassinated when open war resumed in August 2003.

28 August - 3 September 2003
Marked for liquidation

This week's bloody events announced the death of the unilateral Palestinian ceasefire, reports Khaled Amayreh, in Hebron, and below, traces the life and politial career of Ismael Abu Shanab, a moderate Hamas leader assassinated by Israel

After repeatedly seeking to destroy the nearly three-month old ceasefire unilaterally declared by Palestinian resistance groups, in agreement with the Palestinian Authority, by systematically killing their activists, the government of Ariel Sharon this week finally got what it has so tenaciously provoked.

Shortly after sunset on Tuesday, a 35-year- old Hebron teacher disguised himself as an ultra-orthodox Jew and boarded an Israeli bus in West Jerusalem. Moments later, he detonated a large bomb that was strapped to his body, killing himself and as many as 21 Israelis, and wounded nearly 120. Some of the victims were children and women....

...As expected, the bombing gave the government of Ariel Sharon the opportunity it seemed to have been awaiting to resume its open war against the Palestinians and destroy the American-backed roadmap. Sharon gave the PA what amounts to an ultimatum to act against Hamas and destroy its "infrastructure".


In response, PA officials went into marathon meetings after a series of stringent measures were taken against the two Islamist resistance groups. Those included a campaign to confiscate "illegal weapons" and barring media interviews with Hamas and Islamic Jihad leaders. But Sharon and his defence minister, Shaul Mofaz, were in no mood to accept anything but blood. And blood, there was.

On Thursday, an Israeli Apache helicopter gunship fired three or four missiles at the car of moderate Hamas Spokesman Ismael Abu Shanab, killing him and two of his aides instantly.

It is difficult to figure out why Israel chose such a moderate leader, who on several occasions had voiced support for the creation of a viable Palestinian state alongside Israel.
One Israeli officer was quoted in the Israeli daily Ha'aretz as saying that Abu Shanab was assassinated "because he was the only one available". But Abu Shanab's assassination was far from being a mere tit-for-tat reaction to the West Jerusalem bus bombing. Israeli military leaders and commanders have vowed to assassinate all Hamas political leaders in the West Bank, Gaza and Syria, saying that the assassination of Abu Shanab was merely the beginning...


http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2003/653/re1.htm

Its only difficult to explain Israel's actions if one assumes Israel wants to share the region known as Palestine with its origninal inhabitants. But if one assumes that Israel's longterm plan is to imprison every Palestinian west of the Jordan river and seize their land while portraying their aggression as self defense, then what Israel does makes perfect sense.



JTF: So as long as they are beng sent weapons they have no choice but to keep killing each other? Bizarre.

That's not what I said. But I will restate what I said more clearly so my meaning can't be twisted.

Gaza is in a state of civil war. Israel allows arms transfers to one side in the conflict but not the other. Israel bombs one side, but not the other. Conclusion: Israel supports one side of the Palestinian civil war.

But if that logic fails to convince you, then read this Jerusalem Post article:

May. 20, 2007 9:02
Cabinet to discuss support for Fatah
The security cabinet is expected to discuss on Sunday whether, and to what degree, Israel should support Fatah to keep Hamas from taking complete control of the Gaza Strip, senior government officials said Saturday night.
The officials said there had been a great deal of "quiet diplomatic activity" in recent days with Egypt, Jordan and the US regarding ways to stabilize the situation in Gaza.

Report: 'Israel considers aiding Fatah'


Government officials would not discuss whether Saudi Arabia was involved as well, beyond saying that Israel did not have direct contacts with Riyadh.
The defense establishment has yet to set a policy on assisting Fatah in its battle against Hamas. Last week, Israel let several hundred Fatah "soldiers" enter Gaza from Egypt, where they were being trained.

According to defense officials, a request from Fatah and the US to allow either Egypt or Jordan to transfer weapons, ammunition and other military equipment to forces loyal to Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas is being considered by the government, and a decision will be made in the coming days.
The goal of this flurry of diplomatic activity, the officials said, was to make sure that everyone realized that it was in no one's interest - not Israel's, Jordan's, Egypt's, the region's‚ or the world's - for Gaza to fall under Hamas's control.Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has been saying recently in closed-door meetings that with all their corruption and other problems, Fatah at least says it is interested in dialogue and wants a two-state solution....

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1178708640008&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull

Not only is Israel aiding Fatah, but they are considering arming them directly.

But Israel's tactic has backfired. Fatah now looks like they are part of the Israeli defense forces. Israel's airstrikes on Hamas targets unifies Palestinians against Israel.



JTF: So the fighting between Fatah and Hamas is nothing more than another evil Zionist plot?

No more like pragmatism. Israel's leaders would like to keep Palestinians busy fighting each other, while they continue their ethnic cleansing and annexation of Palestine. Its not a stretch to believe that some of the unknown gunmen who have assassinated Palestinian leaders and their families recently are in fact Israeli agents on missions to provoke and sustain a Palestinian civil war.
 
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Just the Facts

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Oct 15, 2004
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Remember the May 2003 roadmap to peace? That ceasefire was on condition that Israel also ceasefiring and stop seizing Palestinian land.


If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, there was no ceasefire agreement. Israel had no obligations because it didn't agree to anything. So, yeah, it was unilateral. I've seen those kinds of ceasefire agreements in the schoolyard. The bully sucker puches you a few times quickly, then when you compose yourself and move in to punch back he throws up his hands saying "ok ok, peace! peace!". As soon as you let down your guard, he sucker punches you again. People are beginning to see through the tricks.

http://www.freeman.org/m_online/sep03/pasko.htm

In fact, since the hudna "started", 28 people have been killed and over 160 injured. There have been 210 shooting attacks in Judea, Samaria - the West Bank - and Gaza. During the 49 days that the hudna had been in effect, before the bus bombing, there were no fewer than 180 terrorist attacks, and 40 others that were stopped in time by Israeli security forces. The security forces arrested 19 would-be terrorist bombers since the PA's unilateral hudna - cease-fire - that began on June 30th, 2003.

Some cease-fire. I realize that link is hearsay, dispute it and tear it up if you wish. I'm just going to take his facts at face value for now.

Most people don't know how the roadmap to peace got lost. Israel accepted the roadmap on May 25, 2003. On June 4, Hamas moderate Abu Shanab got all the Palestinian militant groups to agree to a ceasefire. But just when it looked like peace was about to break out, Israel attempted to assassinate a Hamas leader on June 10. That violation triggered a suicide bombing in response on June 11.


Israel never really accepted the roadmap. They agreed conditiomally, one of the conditions was the dismantling of the terror organizations, including Hamas. We all know how that worked out.

JTF: So as long as they are beng sent weapons they have no choice but to keep killing each other? Bizarre.

That's not what I said. But I will restate what I said more clearly so my meaning can't be twisted.

Gaza is in a state of civil war. Israel allows arms transfers to one side in the conflict but not the other. Israel bombs one side, but not the other. Conclusion: Israel supports one side of the Palestinian civil war.

Fair enough. I don't doubt that Israeli's are relishing the discord among the Palestinians and doing whatever they can to promote it. It's also a given that they have chosen Fatah as the lesser of two evils. What I find bizarre is that it's so easy for them.
 

Zzarchov

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Aug 28, 2006
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Try seeing both sides.

For Israelis the problem is more economic.

I don't know, a Bomb hitting me is a little more than an Economic problem. I know I don't like dying, even if its economically viable.

Israelis affected by Gaza rockets can close shop and leave. Where do people from Gaza go?
Same thing, many countries have offered to house refugees...course then they would actually have to leave never to return. OR, they could stop firing rockets.

This article shows both sides.
In the same way the marriage counsellor who is stupping the wife secretly see's both sides.

Did you catch how the Palestinian neighbors lost their home? That is the root cause of the violence.
Ya, don't live next door to a bomb maker. Its no different anywhere else, If I rent out a room to a cocaine addict and the police bust him, I can lose my home.
I mean seriously, don't put up with bomb makers living next to you. Get up and move, or get your own damn police to drive em out.

Its not Israels job to ensure their opponents don't fight in a city. Its Hamas job to not fight inside populated areas to save its own people.



http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/jerusalem.html

Meanwhile Israeli airstrikes have ended the civil war and unified the various factions:

Is there anything hating jews can't solve?
 

Logic 7

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Jul 17, 2006
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This is why Isreal is shelling Gaza.
These things hurt
It is widely reported that Hizballah possesses over 5,000 Katyusha rockets


BM-13 launcher based on a ZiS-6 truck,


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Katyusha_rockets_closeup.jpg
Close-up view of 132-mm M-13 rockets, on

.



IF those are good reason to invade gaza or lebanon, maybe the fact that israel has 300 nuclear warhead,should the Coalition of the brave invade and occupied israel? by the same time kiiling innoncent peoples based on fears?
 

Logic 7

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Jul 17, 2006
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I don't know, a Bomb hitting me is a little more than an Economic problem. I know I don't like dying, even if its economically viable.


Same thing, many countries have offered to house refugees...course then they would actually have to leave never to return. OR, they could stop firing rockets.


In the same way the marriage counsellor who is stupping the wife secretly see's both sides.


Ya, don't live next door to a bomb maker. Its no different anywhere else, If I rent out a room to a cocaine addict and the police bust him, I can lose my home.
I mean seriously, don't put up with bomb makers living next to you. Get up and move, or get your own damn police to drive em out.

Its not Israels job to ensure their opponents don't fight in a city. Its Hamas job to not fight inside populated areas to save its own people.


Is there anything hating jews can't solve?



I just can't believe what you said, where could they ffight, they are all sorrounded by walls, like an open air prison?

Don't live next door to a bomb maker, i am impress by your logic, it is israel who suspect there is a bomb maker, there is not a single shread of proof, that he was actually a bomb maker, just like everything israeli-governement says, very much credibility we saw in the past.
 

Zzarchov

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Aug 28, 2006
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Israeli credibility is high, its intelligence serveces are the best in the world.

As for where could they fight?
Same way every other urban nation does, it would have to evacuate cities.

And even the victim acknowledged there was a bomb maker, just that he didn't think he should be punished for it.
 

earth_as_one

Time Out
Jan 5, 2006
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If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, there was no ceasefire agreement. Israel had no obligations because it didn't agree to anything. So, yeah, it was unilateral. I've seen those kinds of ceasefire agreements in the schoolyard. The bully sucker puches you a few times quickly, then when you compose yourself and move in to punch back he throws up his hands saying "ok ok, peace! peace!". As soon as you let down your guard, he sucker punches you again. People are beginning to see through the tricks.

http://www.freeman.org/m_online/sep03/pasko.htm

In fact, since the hudna "started", 28 people have been killed and over 160 injured. There have been 210 shooting attacks in Judea, Samaria - the West Bank - and Gaza. During the 49 days that the hudna had been in effect, before the bus bombing, there were no fewer than 180 terrorist attacks, and 40 others that were stopped in time by Israeli security forces. The security forces arrested 19 would-be terrorist bombers since the PA's unilateral hudna - cease-fire - that began on June 30th, 2003.

Some cease-fire. I realize that link is hearsay, dispute it and tear it up if you wish. I'm just going to take his facts at face value for now.



Israel never really accepted the roadmap. They agreed conditiomally, one of the conditions was the dismantling of the terror organizations, including Hamas. We all know how that worked out.



Fair enough. I don't doubt that Israeli's are relishing the discord among the Palestinians and doing whatever they can to promote it. It's also a given that they have chosen Fatah as the lesser of two evils. What I find bizarre is that it's so easy for them.


No it wasn't exactly a ceasefire agreement. But it was a missed opportunity for peace. How this opportunity was missed speaks volumes about who wants peace and who doesn't.

Here is an Israel account of events at the time:

May 17, 2003 - Gadi Levy and his wife Dina, aged 31 and 37, of Kiryat Arba were killed by a suicide bomber in Hebron. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
May 18, 2003 - Seven people were killed and 20 wounded in a suicide bombing on Egged bus no. 6 near French Hill in Jerusalem. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack. The victims: Olga Brenner, 52; Yitzhak Moyal, 64; Nelly Perov, 55; Marina Tsahivershvili, 44; Shimon Ustinsky, 68; and Roni Yisraeli, 34 - all of the Pisgat Ze'ev neighborhood in Jerusalem; and Ghalab Tawil, 42, of Shuafat.

A second suicide bomber detonated his bomb when intercepted by police in northern Jerusalem. The terrorist was killed; no one else was injured.

May 19, 2003 - Kiryl Shremko, 22, of Afula; Hassan Ismail Tawatha, 41, of Jisr a-Zarqa; and Avi Zerihan, 36, of Beit Shean were killed and about 70 people were wounded in a suicide bombing at the entrance to the Amakim Mall in Afula. The Islamic Jihad and the Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades both claimed responsibility for the attack.

June 5, 2003 - The bodies of David Shambik, 26, and Moran Menachem, 17, both of Jerusalem, were found near Hadassah Ein Karem Hospital in Jerusalem, brutally beaten and stabbed to death.

June 8, 2003 - Sgt. Maj. (Res.) Assaf Abergil, 23, of Eilat; Sgt. Maj. (Res.) Udi Eilat, 38, of Eilat; Sgt. Maj. Boaz Emete, 24, of Beit She'an; and Sgt. Maj. (Res.) Chen Engel, 32, of Ramat Gan were killed and four reserve soldiers were wounded when Palestinian terrorists wearing IDF uniforms opened fire on an IDF outpost near the Erez checkpoint and industrial zone in the Gaza Strip. Three terrorists were killed by IDF soldiers. The Fatah Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, Hamas and the Islamic Jihad issued a joint statement claiming responsibility for the attack.

June 8, 2003 - St.-Sgt. Matan Gadri, 21, of Moshav Moledet was killed in Hebron while pursuing two Palestinian gunmen who earlier had wounded a Border Policeman on guard at the Tomb of the Patriarchs. The two terrorists were killed. June 11, 2003 - Seventeen people were killed and over 100 wounded in a suicide bombing on Egged bus #14A outside the Klal building on Jaffa Road in the center of Jerusalem. Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
The victims: Sgt. Tamar Ben-Eliahu, 20, of Moshav Paran; Alan Beer, 46, of Jerusalem; Eugenia Berman, 50, of Jerusalem; Elsa Cohen, 70, of Jerusalem; Zvi Cohen, 39, of Jerusalem; Roi Eliraz, 22, of Mevaseret Zion; Alexander Kazaris, 77, of Jerusalem; Yaffa Mualem, 65, of Jerusalem; Yaniv Obayed, 22, of Herzliya; Bat-El Ohana, 21, of Kiryat Ata; Anna Orgal, 55, of Jerusalem; Zippora Pesahovitch, 54, of Zur Hadassah; Bianca Rivka Shichrur, 62, of Jerusalem; Malka Sultan, 67, of Jerusalem; Bertin Tita, 75, of Jerusalem. Miriam Levy, 74, of Jerusalem died of her wounds on

June 12.
Haile Abraha Hawki, 56, a foreign worker from Eritrea, was positively identified on June 24.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism...f+Palestinian+Violence+and+Terrorism+sinc.htm

Its from the Israeli government and covers violence directed at Israelis during the period in question.

No doubt that in mid May, Palestinian militant groups were active. But throughout June, attacks had pretty much stopped.

The July 11 attack pretty much ended hopes of peace. But if all you knew was just the above, then you would have a incomplete view of this time. All you would know is one side.

But events in Palestinian areas during that period are equally important:

US Media Ignores Israeli Violence After Aqaba Summit
June 11, 2003
by Ali Abunimah

Following the 4 June Aqaba summit between President Bush and Israeli and Palestinian leaders, the US media fell quickly into the pattern of ignoring or severely downplaying Israeli attacks on Palestinians, and playing up Palestinian counterviolence as a threat to a budding "peace process."

Yet The Guardian's Conal Urquhart reported that "As George Bush talked about peace with the Israeli and Palestinian prime ministers, Israeli soldiers were raiding the refugee camp of Balata and the city of Nablus for the third day running." ("Children shot in third day of Israeli army raids, The Guardian, 5 June 2003)

Urquhart described how "screams echoed around the clinic" in the camp, "as a woman brought her seven-year-old daughter in for treatment. She had been shot in the abdomen by an Israeli soldier" as the Aqaba summit took place. Later the same day, the report said, a boy was shot in the head with a rubber-coated bullet.

According to the Red Crescent, The Guardian reported, "some 50 people have been treated for bullet and shrapnel wounds" in two days.

Dr. Samir Abu Zarzur, the head of the casualty department at Rafiah hospital in Nablus, said that his department treated 32 people injured by the Israeli army on Tuesday, the day President Bush was meeting the Palestinians' Mahmoud Abbas and other Arab leaders in Sharm Al-Sheikh and urging them to join a struggle against "terrorism."

"Twelve of the injured were children. One eight-year-old was shot in the face with a rubber-coated bullet. A young woman lost her eye and a young man lost a kidney. There are two or three still in a serious condition," The Guardian quoted Abu Zarzur saying.

In a 7 June press release, the Palestinian Red Crescent Society (PCRS) reported that on 4 June, the day of the Aqaba summit, "A PRCS ambulance on its way to rescue injured people in the Balata Camp was stopped by Israeli soldiers. Soldiers attacked the ambulance, hitting one of the EMTs on the face and head." Under threats of further violence from the soldiers, the ambulance was forced to turn back.

The only US newspaper that we were able to find that reported the events in Balata was Newsday, on 5 June, in a report by the same Conal Urquhart.

The Chicago Tribune's account of the day of the Aqaba meeting was quite different. The paper said, "the day gave rise to hope not only for what happened but also for what did not: There was no major Israeli-Palestinian violence" ("Bush hails good beginning, Chicago Tribune, 5 June 2003). The report made no mention of the three-day long Israeli attack on Balata Camp that caused so many injuries and continued during the Aqaba summit.

Nor did the violence and suffering stop after the summit.

On 5 June, 15 year-old Ibrahim Abu Habla, who had been shot in the eye by Israeli occupation forces in Tulkarm, also near Nablus, on 28 May, died of his wounds, Agence France Presse reported. He had been among a number of children shot with live bullets for throwing stones at the occupier's tanks. ("Palestinian dies of wounds in West Bank," AFP, 5 June, 2003)

And just hours after the Aqaba summit, Israeli occupation forces attacked in Gaza's Rafah, close to the Egyptian border. Agence France Presse reported that Israeli tanks, accompanied by armored bulldozers entered part of the town and "demolished four houses before leaving." ("Israeli incursion into Gaza Strip, AFP, 5 June 2003).

The same day, in the central Gaza Strip town of Deir al Balah, the occupation forces expelled the residents of a two-story building from their homes and destroyed the building. Agence France Presse quoted Palestinian medics saying that the building's owner Ahmed Tawashi, "was moderately injured by gunfire when the Israeli soldiers forced him and his family to leave the house," and that the residents were not allowed to take any of their furniture or personal belongings. ("Israeli army demolish Palestinian house in Gaza Strip, AFP, 5 June 2003)

The next day, (July 6, 2007) Israeli occupation forces carried out an ambush on a Palestinian house near Tulkarm, killing two men Israel claimed were Hamas militants planning to become suicide bombers, and wounding a third. This death squad action, and the Israeli violence that preceded it failed to excite the attention of the US press, which remained decidedly focused on the upbeat message coming from Aqaba.

Yet, when Palestinian fighters attacked Israeli occupation forces in the West Bank and Gaza Strip on Sunday, 8 June, killing five Israeli soldiers and losing five combatants themselves, many US media organizations suddenly took notice.

The Los Angeles Times reported that these attacks were "the first since last week's summit" in Aqaba, and made no mention of any of the preceding Israeli attacks on Palestinians ("Sharon vows to stay course despite raids," Los Angeles Times, 9 June 2003).

The New York Times claimed that the 8 June attacks "brought the first major violence here since the new Palestinian prime minister met in Jordan last week with Prime Minister Ariel Sharon" ("Abbas answers critics, vows support for Palestinian issues," New York Times, 9 June 2003).

NBC News anchor Don Teague told viewers on Sunday morning that the attack on the Israeli soldiers in Gaza was "the first deadly attack since last week's Mideast summit." The CBS Evening news reported that five Israelis were killed, but failed to mention that all were armed, combatant occupation soldiers.

On 9-10 June, the US media paid a great deal of attention to Israel's removal of "illegal" settler "outposts" in the Occupied Territories. The New York Times carried a lengthy front-page report on the Israeli actions which amounted to little more than the removal of a few empty trailers, a water tank and a guard post. The Times report was the only one we found that mentioned -- albeit in a single sentence and with little detail -- that just before their much advertised action against the outposts, Israeli forces blew up thirteen houses in the town of Beit Hanoun in the northern Gaza Strip, making dozens of Palestinians homeless. ("In Israeli gesture, tower is removed near settlement," New York Times, 10 June 2003).

On 10 June, Christian Peacemaker Teams reported that Israeli occupation forces in Hebron forcibly ended a peaceful six-day effort by students to reopen their university that Israel had shut five months ago. Students sawed open the welded gate and tried to re-enter their campus. Occupation soldiers forced them away and fired percussion grenades and re-welded the gates. This is one example of the countless instances of non-violent civil disobedience by Palestinians called for frequently by US commentators, but just as frequently ignored in coverage when they occur ("Israeli army welds gate shut at Hebron University, Christian Peacemaker Teams, 10 June 2003).

Previous EI coverage trends have documented that US press reports routinely ignore or downplay Israeli violence against Palestinians, even though the ratio of unarmed Palestinian to Israeli civilians killed in the conflict is more than three to one since September 2000. Periods in which dozens of Palestinians have been killed have been widely and routinely termed "periods of calm," or "relative calm" just because few or no Israelis were killed during the same time. Such inaccurate reporting reinforces the claims of Israel's apologists that violence is a Palestinian problem to which Israel is only reacting, and helps to conceal the enormous amount of violence Israel uses to maintain its military occupation of more than three million Palestinians and their land.

President Bush's 'road map' peace plan recognizes that violence cannot be stopped only by the Palestinians. This is why it calls in Phase One for both Israelis and Palestinians to stop all violence and incitement. The official statements at Aqaba by Sharon, Bush and Abbas, however, seem to have dropped this essential part of the road map and redefined Phase One such that only Palestinians must work against violence. The media, rather than correcting the record, simply amplify the distortions.

On 10 June, Israel's efforts to derail the road map intensified with an attempt to murder Hamas spokesman Abdul 'Aziz al Rantisi, which left him and his son injured, and a woman bystander dead. Later the same day, Ha'aretz reported that Israeli tanks and helicopter gunships fired toward "a Palestinian residential area in the northern Gaza Strip on Tuesday, killing three Palestinians and wounding 30." The three dead were identified as a 16-year-old girl and two 19-year-old men, who lived between Beit Hanoun and Jabaliya refugee camp. Early coverage of these events indicated that as usual, Palestinians will be unjustly blamed for 'reigniting' a cycle of violence that in reality never paused for a single day.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=3760

That was from a Palestinian source. Both accounts appear to be accurate, but neither is complete. Between them is a fairly accurate account of events. Seems to me there were provoking events and escalations on both sides.