Resetting taxes versus raising GST


Omicron
#1
I'm listening to a wimp on CBC whimper like a shy parrot how they "should not raise corporate taxes because companies will not set up here".

He got semi-shut down by another guy saying, "We're just going to re-set it back to what it was three months ago".

The guy who stumped the wimp forgot to say: "Remember how back in the old days Canadian's used to whine about not having the industry to process all their own resources, such that all we were doing is sell it all off?"

Had the wimp heard that, he would have said, "So?"

The answer is, as it is now, "Because we do not do manufacturing here, and because we only supply resources, it means the companies setting up here from China are only doing so for the resources, after which extraction they are going to run away, so...

Do you really think *anything* in the way of corporate taxes are going to choke them when they want the resources, unless you make the taxes so high they figure it's cheaper to fight for them?

Picture it a corporation saying: "I do not like your taxes, so I am going to dig tar-sands somewhere else".

Picture it further: "If you guys want to live so good go dig and sell the resources for yourself, but you will not work without a regular payed job (for being payed off to sell your resources)". Okay, haul the tar sands to another jurisdiction.

Hmm... the issue is not about global trade nor foreign investment nor anything... evidently the issue is about how Canadians hate and do not trust each other the way people in other countries do as a normal part of a day. I've been dealing with the states long enough to suspect.

So let's see... hmm... what corporate tax can a resource supplier charge versus the cost to others wanting those resources invading for it?

I betcha it's more than what the Wall-street gargoyles would ideally like to see you charge against their shareholder benefits.

I mean, look at the Wall-street gargoyles. They demolish American industry exporting manufacturing to China. Then they make as much profit possible by making Canadian resources cheap to China.

They end up feeling like they own everything, without noticing that China already knows it does not have to do the WTO rules if it is strong enough, such that we have CDNBear et al preparing for a wall to be put up around China... thus the call for Canada to pitch in a huge bunch of F-35s as part of a world-order force.

You f-cks dont' know how to make trade agreements with China. You should have seen how embarrassed it was to mediate a deal between the US and Japan, but now it's China, and f-ckhole Harper is allowing the rich resources of true north be torn between the US and China while only 30 million people inbetween being torn down.

I keep telling you guys there is a way to moderate and mediate this, but the f-ckhole MBAs from Harvard are just as programmed by the time they are done as are their taskmasters from hell. I know this because I worked with Harvard MBAs as a matter of exhaustive orientation where I was the one hired to teach.

Did you notice how if north America were to get all its former-factory workers back to growing food - the more healthy and organic the better - to feed China, and if China were to be left alone to live its dream of colonizing the moon, that they are hard enough to tolerate being gassed and frozen when their cheep technology breaks such that their civilization will not break down with torments of mass media tears if their guys die on a space venture...

Did you notice how north America has built up enough arms and nuclear deterrent to protect the world's food supply, and that some serious deals can be made if someone doesn't want to starve to death?

You think those factory workers from Hamilton wouldn't grow food as a dumb job if they were paid to show up for a crop?

The only enemy in a situation like this is Monsanto, and this is where Canadians love having a border.

Plus you f-cks never noticed that the dominant byproduct of Candu reactors was Plutonium, from which, according to the last census done in 1966 afterwhic it got clamped down secret, Canada had stored up enough Plutonium to build 1500 Hiroshima sized bombs and oh my goodness it's all based upon the delivery systems and oh my goodness the Avro Arrow gets shut down and I keep telling you guys I am the one trying to lead the Americans forward.


I am not following Americans... I am showing them how to be north American.

They are charged with the feeling of being the world's biggest tough guys like playground bullies do that.

That's how they tolerate not being the best civilization in the world anymore.

Geezuz Christ... I just heard a hate ad against Liberals... and I thought I was hearing a hate ad against Harper. Turns out it was Harper.


I'm am sharing a nation with idiots.

Whereupon screw you, I am educating natives.

Blast you if you didn't notice they have the same percentage of population as black in the US.
Last edited by Omicron; Apr 4th, 2011 at 11:07 PM..
 
damngrumpy
No Party Affiliation
#2
The first thing out of the mouths of pro business governments and business leaders
is There Is No Free Lunch, then of course they ask for tax concessions to have a
free lunch. I think we have to balance the tax scale and if that means both increases
for taxpayers and business then fine. It is however in societies interests to have the
business community paying its fair share, like all other sectors of the community.
 
PoliticalNick
Free Thinker
#3
The thing to remember is that if one company leaves a market of 34 million people there will be 5 more waiting to step in and service the needs for less profit. As long as there is a profit avilable they will come here and do business whether that profit is $500 billion or $500 million.

Just like field of dreams...if there is profit , they will come.
 
Omicron
+1
#4  Top Rated Post
Quote: Originally Posted by damngrumpyView Post

The first thing out of the mouths of pro business governments and business leaders
is There Is No Free Lunch, then of course they ask for tax concessions to have a
free lunch.

Yeah.

Quote:

I think we have to balance the tax scale and if that means both increases
for taxpayers and business then fine.

In terms of balancing the tax scale, what those making uber-profits love to gripe about is progressive tax systems, and indeed, progressive tax systems can seem unfair on graph-paper until one understands how compound interest works, such that it is in fact a progressive tax system that levels the scale.

Mathematically, the most bent is a regressive scale, where the richer one is, the less tax paid, and that's what took over the US starting with Reagan, where those most able to afford it and are reaping the most benefits from living in their society are paying the least to keep it going.

I saw a thing where Warren Buffet went to great lengths to explain to American voters how he, as one of the richest people in the world, does not pay taxes, and how it was up to them to change it. It was creepy the way I could see how his detailings were going in one ear and out the other of 97.3% of the audience.

It's got so extreme down that if they were to do a fair tax on the 400 richest Americans, they could get as much revenue - just from those - to fix as many problem as if they were to fairly tax the next 155 million earners.

But they don't, and so the US continues to spiral into debt, and the average American still has no clue that the only thing keeping their currency propped up is that it's still the international standard.

But that can change fast. The British pound was the international standard up until the early 50's, during which time the British economy was unassailable. When the world chose to switch to the US dollar it happened fast, such that within seven years England was knocked back to being an ordinary nation like all the others.

I've read studies saying that if Canada keeps on feeding China the minerals it wants and if the world shifts away from the US dollar as the standard, then, coupled with climate change, the American economy will drop to hillbilly level, with the US buck equal to about $0.50 Canadian, such that if Canada really thinks it needs immigration (which it doesn't if Ottawa would just get organized; any more than Sweden needed it back in the 70s when they already had a ratio of elders-to-youth like we're facing now because they avoided wars) then Canada will be in a position to skim the cream of US skilled workers, and Canada will be fighting illegal immigration from the south the way the US is battling Mexicans.

Basically, that economic shift coupled with climate change amounts to about 70 million Americans moving here. Places like Fort Smith boom, and Canuckistan ends up with a population of 120 million. The population of the lower mainland of BC, aka the Fraser Valley, will have 10 million going all the way up to Hope, and BC will have lost its most productive farmland, although if we can convince suburbanites to grow gardens instead of lawns it might not be so bad.
Last edited by Omicron; Apr 5th, 2011 at 09:40 AM..
 
Avro
No Party Affiliation
+1
#5
Corporate taxes should be zero.

I'd opt for a income tax or a sales tax.

Sales tax would be better because it gives you more choice.
 
YukonJack
Conservative
#6
Taxes should be based on consumption, not on income.
 
petros
#7
Quote: Originally Posted by YukonJackView Post

Taxes should be based on consumption, not on income.

You've got that right but for some people they have to spend all they have which means they get zero tax breaks and no chance to save.
 
YukonJack
Conservative
#8
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

You've got that right but for some people they have to spend all they have which means they get zero tax breaks and no chance to save.

Which should be powerful impetus to improve their lot in life.
 
petros
+1
#9
Cash has always been a motivator but even the most motitivated aren't always given the same opportunities or the luxury of physical/mental capability.

Morality binds us to at least some form of social assistance, education minimums and race/gender equality.
 
YukonJack
Conservative
+1
#10
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

Cash has always been a motivator but even the most motitivated aren't always given the same opportunities or the luxury of physical/mental capability.

Morality binds us to at least some form of social assistance, education minimums and race/gender equality.

Fully agree, petros. Those who are NOT able to help themselves should get help.

But nobody should have sympathy for those who could, but won't.
 
mentalfloss
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by YukonJackView Post

Which should be powerful impetus to improve their lot in life.

It's like that powerful impetus the rich should naturally have to give.

Oh wait, that's not right...
 
YukonJack
Conservative
+1
#12
Quote: Originally Posted by mentalflossView Post

It's like that powerful impetus the rich should naturally have to give.

Oh wait, that's not right...

Come on, mentalfloss, get real. Drop the Marxist class warfare and your derogatory crap about the "RICH".

When did a poor person give you a job?

Why do penniless immigrants, with no connections to the so-called "RICH" achieve spectacular success, while socialist-empowered free-loaders wallow in their misery generation after generation?

How many people the did the field-leveler affirmative action lift out of poverty?

Do you believe in equal opportunity or equal outcome?
 
petros
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by YukonJackView Post

Fully agree, petros. Those who are NOT able to help themselves should get help.

But nobody should have sympathy for those who could, but won't.

Sympathy is somewhere between **** and syphilis when it comes to the lazy.

As an employer there are two things that I won't tolerate. Somebody with their hands in their pockets and someone who comes to ask what to do next.

What the hell do you do with those who lack confidence? Boot camp? I like the idea of some sort of boot camp or a program like Katimavik but mandatory before being allowed entry to university or trades or general workforce.
 
Omicron
#14
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

You've got that right but for some people they have to spend all they have which means they get zero tax breaks and no chance to save.

So if everybody saves and doesn't spend anything, to whom would you be selling anything in order to make the money to save?

Quote: Originally Posted by YukonJackView Post

Which should be powerful impetus to improve their lot in life.

Hmm.. so being broke is a "powerful impetus to improve their lot in life".

I guess that justifies Somali pirates.

What would you do if there are no jobs because all the money has ended up in the hands of a few who got it all by leaving alone a pile of money to compound-interest, who then use it to buy all the land and who get all their work done with robots, and who defend themselves with military robots they got lower-class taxpayers to pay the R&D to invent?
Last edited by Omicron; Apr 5th, 2011 at 12:50 PM..
 
petros
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by OmicronView Post

So if everybody saves and doesn't spend anything, to whom would you be selling anything in order to make the money to save?

You are old enough to know the differences between needs, wants and luxuries aren't you?
 
Omicron
#16
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

You are old enough to know the differences between needs, wants and luxuries aren't you?

Yup.

Sometimes when walking through malls I wonder what 70% of the people would be doing if the only thing we bought and sold were necessities.
 
YukonJack
Conservative
#17
Quote: Originally Posted by OmicronView Post

So if everybody saves and doesn't spend anything, to whom would you be selling anything in order to make the money to save?

Hmm.. so being broke is a "powerful impetus to improve their lot in life".

I guess that justifies Somali pirates.

What would you do if there are no jobs because all the money has ended up in the hands of a few who got it all by leaving alone a pile of money to compound-interest, who then use it to buy all the land and who get all their work done with robots, and who defend themselves with military robots they got lower-class taxpayers to pay the R&D to invent?

When I was broke as a young man living in the city, I packed my belonging to a very small suitcase and got a job in gold mine, 1300 kilometers from Toronto. After the first payday I was no longer broke.

So, YES, it was a very strong impetus.

I will not dignify your apple-to-oranges reference to Somali pirates with an answer.

Since most people would find breaking a habit they developed when they were young, you know: EATING, there will always be jobs in the food industry whether growing, picking or serving food.
Based on your post on CC, I resume you would choose to freeload, rather than getting your hands dirty picking tomatoes or apples or oranges.

I came to Canada penniless, not speaking English or French during a time of crushing unemployment far worse than the one we are experiencing now. From 1957 to the time I retired I was unemployed for eight weeks, during which time I picked tobacco in Simcoe, Ontario, which earned me enough money to live one while I took ten months to attend high school as an adult student to get my high school diploma. When school was out, a two day hitchhiking trip took me to job in another mine, but this time it was only 760 miles from Toronto. My next job was back in Toronto a year later as a factory floor laborer. When the union pissed me off, I applied for and got a job in the office, which allowed me to become a successful computer programmer, a job which I held until I retired.

Yes, need is an excellent motivator, but one must have the guts and ambition to be motivated. The alternative is crying and freeloading and blaming the rich. And knowing the difference between need an want was never an alien concept to me, nor should it be for anyone.

Am I guessing correctly when I think that you are an NDP voter?
 
Omicron
#18
Quote: Originally Posted by YukonJackView Post


Yes, need is an excellent motivator, but one must have the guts and ambition to be motivated. The alternative is crying and freeloading and blaming the rich. And knowing the difference between need an want was never an alien concept to me, nor should it be for anyone.

You also needed to be in a country that actually had a growing economy and work to be had, even if you had to travel to get it.

I've done my share of hoeing sugar beets and planting trees and flipping burgers in a fast food joint when I just the cash, so you're talking to the wrong person if you think I expect the government to support me or if you think the rich owe me a job, but there are some economic realities in this post-industrial society we're in where no amount of motivation is going to help.

I know people in the states who are very keep to work, and the strive hard to find it, but some of them were factory workers who got the carpet yanked out when their boss moved production to China. They really don't have the training for anything else, and if it wasn't for welfare they'd be dead.

I also know people who were in management, and they got shafted in the middle 90s', and there's still nothing else for them to do. The first phase of job elimination happened with automation in the late 50s early 60s. That put tonnes out of work. The next big permanent restructuring of job distribution was in the 90's when owners discovered they could use computer software to do a lot of the stuff they had white-collar workers do. They call's that period in the 90's "downsizing".

But finally they've put a nail in the coffin with the wholesale export of blue-collar jobs to China, and white-collar jobs to India, and there *really* is *nothing* for them to do!

If we had a Japanese style government there is *no* *way* they would have allowed that.
Quote:


Am I guessing correctly when I think that you are an NDP voter?

Sometimes. Sometimes not. Depends on the candidate. I've never voted according to the leader nor for the party in particular. I just rig meetings with the candidates and see if they'll react if I come back to them with an issue.
 
PoliticalNick
Free Thinker
#19
One thing that seems to be getting overlooked in all this discussion of taxation is the trade agreements.

It was not all that long ago that most govt revenues were generated from trade tarriffs and excise taxes, in fact prior to WW1 this was about 90% of all govt revenues, it is now less than 10%. If you are really interested in getting rid of income tax and strenghtening our Candian economy it is the free trade agreements that need to go.

We in Canada are in a superior position to most as we have all the resources we need and still have the skill and ability to internally manufacture most of what we need so let the others come to us for our resources and to take advantage of our marketplace but let them pay for the privelige too.
 
Avro
No Party Affiliation
#20
Quote: Originally Posted by PoliticalNickView Post

One thing that seems to be getting overlooked in all this discussion of taxation is the trade agreements.

It was not all that long ago that most govt revenues were generated from trade tarriffs and excise taxes, in fact prior to WW1 this was about 90% of all govt revenues, it is now less than 10%. If you are really interested in getting rid of income tax and strenghtening our Candian economy it is the free trade agreements that need to go.

We in Canada are in a superior position to most as we have all the resources we need and still have the skill and ability to internally manufacture most of what we need so let the others come to us for our resources and to take advantage of our marketplace but let them pay for the privelige too.

We have a trade surplus with the US....and you want to start a trade war?
 
Omicron
+1
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by PoliticalNickView Post

One thing that seems to be getting overlooked in all this discussion of taxation is the trade agreements.

It was not all that long ago that most govt revenues were generated from trade tarriffs and excise taxes, in fact prior to WW1 this was about 90% of all govt revenues, it is now less than 10%. If you are really interested in getting rid of income tax and strenghtening our Candian economy it is the free trade agreements that need to go.

We in Canada are in a superior position to most as we have all the resources we need and still have the skill and ability to internally manufacture most of what we need so let the others come to us for our resources and to take advantage of our marketplace but let them pay for the privelige too.

Yeah... Canada is one of two countries with all the elements required to go it alone as an industrial society... the other being Russia... which is why others need to trade with us way more than we need to trade with them.

I would laugh harder when Harpezoid says he's got to give tax-reduction welfare to corporations, saying it's the only way to encourage business to come here and stay... but instead I feel a combination of sadness and terror that there are people who believe him.

As if a diamond-miner is going to put on a pout and huff away to dig his diamonds somewhere else. What's he going to do... take the mine with him?
 
PoliticalNick
Free Thinker
#22
Quote: Originally Posted by AvroView Post

We have a trade surplus with the US....and you want to start a trade war?

Its not a trade war, it is claiming our sovereignty as an independant nation who can actually be independant. We do not need to bow down to the frickin US or anyone else.
 
Avro
No Party Affiliation
#23
Quote: Originally Posted by PoliticalNickView Post

Its not a trade war, it is claiming our sovereignty as an independant nation who can actually be independant. We do not need to bow down to the frickin US or anyone else.

You're right, we don't want to bow down to the US, but we are making money off them.
 
PoliticalNick
Free Thinker
#24
Quote: Originally Posted by AvroView Post

You're right, we don't want to bow down to the US, but we are making money off them.

And we could make a sh*tload more and reduce your income tax to almost nothing. I thought you would be for this. You make such a big deal about not paying taxes and this is a simple solution that achieves your goal.

Remember, they need us more than we need them.
 
Avro
No Party Affiliation
#25
Quote: Originally Posted by OmicronView Post

As if a diamond-miner is going to put on a pout and huff away to dig his diamonds somewhere else. What's he going to do... take the mine with him?

No, buy the mine and take the profits and resources home.

China is doing just that.

Quote: Originally Posted by PoliticalNickView Post

And we could make a sh*tload more and reduce your income tax to almost nothing. I thought you would be for this. You make such a big deal about not paying taxes and this is a simple solution that achieves your goal.

Remember, they need us more than we need them.

How could we make a ****load if your customer goes elsewhere?
 
Said1
Free Thinker
#26
Quote: Originally Posted by PoliticalNickView Post

One thing that seems to be getting overlooked in all this discussion of taxation is the trade agreements.

It was not all that long ago that most govt revenues were generated from trade tarriffs and excise taxes, in fact prior to WW1 this was about 90% of all govt revenues, it is now less than 10%. If you are really interested in getting rid of income tax and strenghtening our Candian economy it is the free trade agreements that need to go.

We in Canada are in a superior position to most as we have all the resources we need and still have the skill and ability to internally manufacture most of what we need so let the others come to us for our resources and to take advantage of our marketplace but let them pay for the privelige too.

Hey sure, the old branch plant economy model would be good, given that stuff is designed/made up here and bought here, without any real need to export stuff, anywhere, ever. Sure cut ourselves off, who needs access to bigger markets when there's us.
 
Avro
No Party Affiliation
#27
Quote: Originally Posted by Said1View Post

Hey sure, the old branch plant economy model would be good, given that stuff is designed/made up here and bought here, without any real need to export stuff, anywhere, ever. Sure cut ourselves off.

Canada is a branch plant economy.
 
Said1
Free Thinker
#28
Quote: Originally Posted by AvroView Post

Canada is a branch plant economy.

Was. Evolving.
 
Avro
No Party Affiliation
#29
Quote: Originally Posted by Said1View Post

Was. Evolving.

Yeah, we'll sell anything that isn't nailed down and destroy the environment at the same time.

What a paradise we are building.
 
Said1
Free Thinker
#30
Quote: Originally Posted by AvroView Post

Yeah, we'll sell anything that isn't nailed down and destroy the environment at the same time.

What a paradise we are building.

Gotta preserve the global status quo, Avro.
 

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