Member
Posts: 77 
Location: Vancouver B.C., Canada
Location: Vancouver B.C., Canada
October 3rd, 2007, 11:02 PM
Ok so in 2003 the right wing (Canadian Alliance + Progressive Conservative Party) united into one party (Conservative Party).
But in the left wing we are heavily split, if you add up Green + Liberal + NDP you get a good majority of 60% of the vote. The only reason the conservatives are in power right now is because they cleverly united to provide right wingers only one voting option. But for the left wing, we have 3 different flavours to choose from. Some would argue that liberals are "center" and that green's are hardly left either, but many left wingers are so concerned about the environment they just see green and vote for them. As for the liberals, almost any left winger would take the libs over the conservatives any day of the week, so there's no dispute there, even if they are a center-ish party.
So in the end the left wing voters have 3 flavours to choose from, and of course the 60% of canadians who are left-minded end up splitting their vote and somehow the 32% right wingers get the government...
It's a pretty pathetic state of affairs, it is obvious we are not a right-wing country, but so long as the right is united and the left is divided we end up with a completely inaccurate portrayal of the countries beliefs in our governing party. I don't want canada to be a two party system like down south, where the left and right both united into two mega parties that are barely distinguishable. But so long as the right is united, and so long as the left wing has so many parties to choose from, how will the true voice of canada be delivered in the governng party? I just feel so sad that a country in which 65% don't like harper ends up with him as PM, something seems broken here.
Thoughts?
Ok so in 2003 the right wing (Canadian Alliance + Progressive Conservative Party) united into one party (Conservative Party).
But in the left wing we are heavily split, if you add up Green + Liberal + NDP you get a good majority of 60% of the vote. The only reason the conservatives are in power right now is because they cleverly united to provide right wingers only one voting option. But for the left wing, we have 3 different flavours to choose from. Some would argue that liberals are "center" and that green's are hardly left either, but many left wingers are so concerned about the environment they just see green and vote for them. As for the liberals, almost any left winger would take the libs over the conservatives any day of the week, so there's no dispute there, even if they are a center-ish party.
So in the end the left wing voters have 3 flavours to choose from, and of course the 60% of canadians who are left-minded end up splitting their vote and somehow the 32% right wingers get the government...
It's a pretty pathetic state of affairs, it is obvious we are not a right-wing country, but so long as the right is united and the left is divided we end up with a completely inaccurate portrayal of the countries beliefs in our governing party. I don't want canada to be a two party system like down south, where the left and right both united into two mega parties that are barely distinguishable. But so long as the right is united, and so long as the left wing has so many parties to choose from, how will the true voice of canada be delivered in the governng party? I just feel so sad that a country in which 65% don't like harper ends up with him as PM, something seems broken here.
Thoughts?
)
Grossly Underrated
Posts: 6,316 
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
October 3rd, 2007, 11:35 PM
Included in the provincial election is a vote on proportional representation - aka popular vote matters
http://www.wayneon.ca/democracy/PRSi...simulator.html
Wolf
Included in the provincial election is a vote on proportional representation - aka popular vote matters
http://www.wayneon.ca/democracy/PRSi...simulator.html
Wolf
Member
Posts: 77
Location: Vancouver B.C., Canada
Location: Vancouver B.C., Canada
October 3rd, 2007, 11:40 PM
proportional representation is only mildly related to this topic if i'm correct.
proportional representation doesn't fix the fact that the left/center vote is split into 3 different parties, the majority of canada is left/center and yet the government is right wing because of vote splitting. proportional representation doesn't fix that in any way, although it's a great thing on it's own, as there's no reason for some votes to be worth more than others.
proportional representation is only mildly related to this topic if i'm correct.
proportional representation doesn't fix the fact that the left/center vote is split into 3 different parties, the majority of canada is left/center and yet the government is right wing because of vote splitting. proportional representation doesn't fix that in any way, although it's a great thing on it's own, as there's no reason for some votes to be worth more than others.
Member
Posts: 77
Location: Vancouver B.C., Canada
Location: Vancouver B.C., Canada
October 3rd, 2007, 11:52 PM
in some ways black and white is good, because you actually can see a contrast. when systems become too gray, all the political parties sound similar and are so busy trying to please everybody you never know what's lip service and what's real.
i'd prefer a 4 party system, with Left, Left Lite, Right Lite, Right
i'd say that currently we have NDP (Left), Liberals (Left Lite), Green (Left splitting) and then Conservatives (Right)
Ideally the green would merge with one of the other two lefts, and the conservatives would split into two options that allow hard rights to be separated from the moderate rights.
in some ways black and white is good, because you actually can see a contrast. when systems become too gray, all the political parties sound similar and are so busy trying to please everybody you never know what's lip service and what's real.
i'd prefer a 4 party system, with Left, Left Lite, Right Lite, Right
i'd say that currently we have NDP (Left), Liberals (Left Lite), Green (Left splitting) and then Conservatives (Right)
Ideally the green would merge with one of the other two lefts, and the conservatives would split into two options that allow hard rights to be separated from the moderate rights.
Grossly Underrated
Posts: 6,316
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
October 3rd, 2007, 11:59 PM
Seems to balance it - NDP, Libs, Tories. Worked before we got BQ and Rhino and Communist and Libertarian and Family Coalition and Navel Gazers and the Shriners to split the vote against into a gazillion factions.
Wolf
Seems to balance it - NDP, Libs, Tories. Worked before we got BQ and Rhino and Communist and Libertarian and Family Coalition and Navel Gazers and the Shriners to split the vote against into a gazillion factions.
Wolf
Member
Posts: 77
Location: Vancouver B.C., Canada
Location: Vancouver B.C., Canada
October 4th, 2007, 12:10 AM
i assure you a large large percentage of liberal votes come from textbook definitons of left wing personalities. they split the left vote no matter how hard people may try to sell them as center.
the ndp and the liberals get in each others way, that's pretty much common knowledge isn't it? while the tories are left unobstructed
i assure you a large large percentage of liberal votes come from textbook definitons of left wing personalities. they split the left vote no matter how hard people may try to sell them as center.
the ndp and the liberals get in each others way, that's pretty much common knowledge isn't it? while the tories are left unobstructed
Grossly Underrated
Posts: 6,316
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
Location: In the bush somewhere near Sudbury
October 4th, 2007, 12:16 AM
Wolf
Quoting OakServe
Sorry, if you are going to alter the messages in your previous posts to make responses look stupid, and you already have all the answers, why are you wasting time debating when you could be playing a computer game?
i assure you a large large percentage of liberal votes come from textbook definitons of left wing personalities. they split the left vote no matter how hard people may try to sell them as center.
the ndp and the liberals get in each others way, that's pretty much common knowledge isn't it? while the tories are left unobstructed
the ndp and the liberals get in each others way, that's pretty much common knowledge isn't it? while the tories are left unobstructed
Wolf
Member
Posts: 77
Location: Vancouver B.C., Canada
Location: Vancouver B.C., Canada
October 4th, 2007, 12:21 AM
i use edit to make corrections or add things i forgot to say.. there's no malicious intent involved..
Quoting lone wolf
the edit button is there for a reason, i don't feel i used it maliciously. i certainly don't do it to make responses look stupid, please point out an edit that you thought i was trying to make others look stupid ?
Sorry, if you are going to alter the messages in your previous posts to make responses look stupid, and you already have all the answers, why are you wasting time debating when you could be playing a computer game?
Wolf
Wolf
i use edit to make corrections or add things i forgot to say.. there's no malicious intent involved..
Senate Member
Posts: 5,615
Location: Saint John, N.B.
Location: Saint John, N.B.
October 4th, 2007, 12:28 AM
Honestly, I think the whole left - right argument is really exagerated in this country.......every party is crammed into the centre........
I used to be a Reformer, but have been dragged into the middle of the road kicking and screaming........I watched the Liberals steal Reform platform planks, hard to swallow that some believe there was so much difference. The CPC (of which I am a card-carrying member) has become Liberal Lite.........but there IS NO real right wing alternative.
So I vote for the least bad of a centre bunch.....
Honestly, I think the whole left - right argument is really exagerated in this country.......every party is crammed into the centre........
I used to be a Reformer, but have been dragged into the middle of the road kicking and screaming........I watched the Liberals steal Reform platform planks, hard to swallow that some believe there was so much difference. The CPC (of which I am a card-carrying member) has become Liberal Lite.........but there IS NO real right wing alternative.
So I vote for the least bad of a centre bunch.....
Member
Posts: 77
Location: Vancouver B.C., Canada
Location: Vancouver B.C., Canada
October 4th, 2007, 12:43 AM
it may be truer and truer as the years go by that all parties are essentially moving center, but it's still interesting to see where the votes go. while in reality the parties may be centrist, the conservatives are commonly thought of as right, the liberals commonly thought of left-lite, the ndp commonly thought of as left. and people vote based on those common assumptions. this is a country where the purported "center" party brought in social healthcare? comon, canadians idea of center is left by most other countries standards.
and from that, i see a 60% desire for leftish politics , yet the 32% that conservatives represent somehow forms the government due to immense vote-splitting of the majority vote.
it makes no sense to me for a man who 64% of the country voted against to have prime ministerial powers. (and polling indicates it will happen again in the next election)
it may be truer and truer as the years go by that all parties are essentially moving center, but it's still interesting to see where the votes go. while in reality the parties may be centrist, the conservatives are commonly thought of as right, the liberals commonly thought of left-lite, the ndp commonly thought of as left. and people vote based on those common assumptions. this is a country where the purported "center" party brought in social healthcare? comon, canadians idea of center is left by most other countries standards.
and from that, i see a 60% desire for leftish politics , yet the 32% that conservatives represent somehow forms the government due to immense vote-splitting of the majority vote.
it makes no sense to me for a man who 64% of the country voted against to have prime ministerial powers. (and polling indicates it will happen again in the next election)
Time Out
Posts: 3,867
Videos: 1
Location: Honour our Fallen
Videos: 1
Location: Honour our Fallen
October 4th, 2007, 01:21 AM
yeah well chretien and moi enjoyed those huge majorities due to the reform splitting the vote....
can't believe colpy would admit to voting for those morons..sheesh reform..even people like colpy get the stupids....not to mention the tasteless non artistic blandness of those people.....
i feel all dirty now ...i used to like colpy...BLEEEEHHHHHHHck...
yeah well chretien and moi enjoyed those huge majorities due to the reform splitting the vote....
can't believe colpy would admit to voting for those morons..sheesh reform..even people like colpy get the stupids....not to mention the tasteless non artistic blandness of those people.....
i feel all dirty now ...i used to like colpy...BLEEEEHHHHHHHck...
Member
Posts: 77
Location: Vancouver B.C., Canada
Location: Vancouver B.C., Canada
October 4th, 2007, 01:38 AM
Quoting DocDred
sorry if i'm a bit ignorant of those times, but wouldn't the liberal vote have still been split by the ndp at the time?
yeah well chretien and moi enjoyed those huge majorities due to the reform splitting the vote....
can't believe colpy would admit to voting for those morons..sheesh reform..even people like colpy get the stupids....not to mention the tasteless non artistic blandness of those people.....
i feel all dirty now ...i used to like colpy...BLEEEEHHHHHHHck...
can't believe colpy would admit to voting for those morons..sheesh reform..even people like colpy get the stupids....not to mention the tasteless non artistic blandness of those people.....
i feel all dirty now ...i used to like colpy...BLEEEEHHHHHHHck...
Time Out
Posts: 3,867
Videos: 1
Location: Honour our Fallen
Videos: 1
Location: Honour our Fallen
October 4th, 2007, 01:49 AM
so beacuae of the reform taking the conservative seats out west and the old conservatives just dying in the east, the liberals had a field day...when the reform lied and that wimp , whats his name, the flake that llost his girlfriend to the hockey player and cried ...the moron that believed the reform guy harper that he was going to lead the conservative party if they formed the alliance...mackay! the hack from hicksville NS....man did he get conned..and then acted like all marks and played like it didn't really happen....
so like when they joined up the conservatives were a viable party and with the liberal quebec destroyed by the bloq the liberals lost....
as i have always stated the conservatives never win an election the liberals lose ....
Canada is basically built on liberal thinking...the conservatives are a tool to destroy the social nets liberals set up...too much liberal thinking is expensive and we need a fail safe like the conservative pricks to take away from the poor....
Quoting OakServe
well Ndp at the time was a non starter...the real war federrally is always the conservatives and the liberals.....the bloq during the time of chretian made quebec irrelevant......
sorry if i'm a bit ignorant of those times, but wouldn't the liberal vote have still been split by the ndp at the time?
so beacuae of the reform taking the conservative seats out west and the old conservatives just dying in the east, the liberals had a field day...when the reform lied and that wimp , whats his name, the flake that llost his girlfriend to the hockey player and cried ...the moron that believed the reform guy harper that he was going to lead the conservative party if they formed the alliance...mackay! the hack from hicksville NS....man did he get conned..and then acted like all marks and played like it didn't really happen....
so like when they joined up the conservatives were a viable party and with the liberal quebec destroyed by the bloq the liberals lost....
as i have always stated the conservatives never win an election the liberals lose ....
Canada is basically built on liberal thinking...the conservatives are a tool to destroy the social nets liberals set up...too much liberal thinking is expensive and we need a fail safe like the conservative pricks to take away from the poor....
