If Quebec is indivisable, then by their rhetoric, so is Canada?


CDNBear
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#1
How can Quebec support the double standard that a soveriegn Quebec could/should/would not be divisable?

IE; Native territories and Natives that overwhelmingly wish to stay within the Nation of Canada.

"There is no way that any Quebecker would accept that a square inch of that territory be extracted from Quebec." {--}
Bloc Québécois Leader, Lucien Bouchard, 1994
"Et le principe de l'intégrité territoriale...peut-il à son tour être invoqué pour le Québec...sans heurter d'autres' droits à l'autodétermination?" {--}
F. Brousseau, 1995
The PQ government takes the position that it can impair the territorial integrity and cause the break-up of Canada in its present form, in the event of an affirmative simple majority vote in the Québec referendum. At the same time, the government claims that the "territorial integrity" of Québec is unassailable, {--} regardless of the claims of self-determination of Aboriginal peoples (or an overwhelming supramajority in any Aboriginal referendum vote). In this regard, D. Cliche, special advisor on Aboriginal affairs to Premier Parizeau, states:
"...the freedom to walk away from an independent Quebec...That's where we don't agree...We can never accept the idea that aboriginal lands can be taken out of Quebec."{--}
S. Scott (McGill University) comments on this type of double standard {--} on the part of the PQ government as follows:
"Ceci amène à la question de l'intégrité territoriale et du double standard. Pour certains, le Canada est divisible, et le Québec ne l'est pas. Je ne puis accepter ce genre de raisonnement, soit sur le plan du droit constitutionnel, soit sur le plan du droit international, soit même sur le plan de la simple morale. Tout argument voulant que le Québec soit indivisible veut aussi que le Canada le soit également. Et tout argument voulant que le Canada soit divisible veut que le Québec le soit aussi." {--}
[Emphasis in original.]

["This brings me to the question of territorial integrity and the double standard. I cannot accept this kind of reasoning, be it on the level of constitutional law, on the level of international law, even on level of simple morality. Any argument suggesting that Québec is indivisible suggests also that Canada is as well. And any argument suggesting that Canada is divisible suggests that Québec is also." [Unofficial English translation, emphasis in original.]]
In addition, S. Dion states:
"...si le territoire du Canada devait être partagé en dépit de l'intégrité territoriale que lui garantit le droit international, le territoire du Québec aussi pourrait être partagé." {--}
M. Venne reports on the position of the Chiefs of the First Nations in Québec as follows:
"Les chefs amérindiens du Québec rejettent le concept de l'intégrité du Québec' et affirment avoir le droit de choisir avec qui (ils veulent) s'associer,' que le Québec devienne souverain ou non. Ils soutiennent d'ailleurs que toute modification du cadre constitutionnel ou politique exigera (leur) consentement'." {--}

Read more...
--
 
shannon
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#2
You can bet your top dollar that if Quebec ever votes to succeed from Canada, Montreal will partition itself from Quebec and remain a part of Canada. The partitionists have very strong support in Montreal and most towns in Montreal have passed a resolution to remain in Canada in the event of a successful vote to separate from Canada.
 
CDNBear
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#3
It's been summized that if we cease talks with Quebec, that some seperatists may resort to a campain of violence to force the issue.

What do you think they will do to the communities that wish not to seperate, if they so choose to rally against a soveriegn Quebec?

Thanx for that tid bit of info, do you have any supporting links or news articles? I need to proof to stem the tide of moonbat rhetoric, lol.
 
Toro
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#4
Of course Quebec is divisible.

It would probably go out with the boundaries similar to that of Lower Canada.
 
CDNBear
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#5
Quote: Originally Posted by ToroView Post

Of course Quebec is divisible.

It would probably go out with the boundaries similar to that of Lower Canada.

So we would like to think, well as Natives anyway, but do you think Quebec would stand for that?
 
Numure
#6
Everything is on the table.
 
Dexter Sinister
No Party Affiliation
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#7
Quote: Originally Posted by NumureView Post

Everything is on the table.

You speak for the separatists, do you? No it's not, not from the perspective of the PQ and BQ anyway. Repeated statements from them have made it clear that they do not consider Quebec to be partitionable. Did you actually read the OP? How much clearer could it be?
 
Toro
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#8
Quote: Originally Posted by NumureView Post

Everything is on the table.

Numure is honest, and correct.

Of course, the BQ and the PQ will say it is not on the table. That is what you'd expect Quebec's starting negotiating position to be.

And my guess is that if independence did happen, then Montreal would remain whole in Quebec.
 
CDNBear
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#9
Quote: Originally Posted by NumureView Post

Everything is on the table.

Yes I'm sure it is. As it was stated in the material I posted, in their own words. It is all on the table. They will not accept the division of Quebec. Are they in for a rude awakening. If you think the serepatists are above trucking BS in from across the province to feed the Natives and non French a line, you may want to PM me, I have some land for sale in Florida, $1 an acre.

Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter SinisterView Post

You speak for the separatists, do you? No it's not, not from the perspective of the PQ and BQ anyway. Repeated statements from them have made it clear that they do not consider Quebec to be partitionable. Did you actually read the OP? How much clearer could it be?

Dex, clarity and even handed consideration is not a priority of the seperatists. Separation is.

Quote: Originally Posted by ToroView Post

Numure is honest, and correct.

Of course, the BQ and the PQ will say it is not on the table. That is what you'd expect Quebec's starting negotiating position to be.

And my guess is that if independence did happen, then Montreal would remain whole in Quebec.

I'm really having difficulty getting a handle on where you stand Toro. I would have thought you were with the Federalists and would sound off in glowing colours as such.
 
Toro
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#10
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

I'm really having difficulty getting a handle on where you stand Toro. I would have thought you were with the Federalists and would sound off in glowing colours as such.

I am with the Federalists.

But it would be irresponsible to ignore options and outcomes if Quebec voted to separate.
 
Numure
#11
Quote: Originally Posted by Dexter SinisterView Post

You speak for the separatists, do you? No it's not, not from the perspective of the PQ and BQ anyway. Repeated statements from them have made it clear that they do not consider Quebec to be partitionable. Did you actually read the OP? How much clearer could it be?

When an intelligent person enters negociations, for anything, he will enter them with the strongest position. Taking a position from the start, as Québec isnt divisable, is puting the odds on your side. Its all long term thought.

But as I've repeated time after time, nothing is clear until there is a mandate. Winning a referendum isnt independance the day after, its a mandate to negotiate independance. And with that, everything is on the table.
 
CDNBear
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#12
Quote: Originally Posted by NumureView Post

When an intelligent person enters negociations, for anything, he will enter them with the strongest position. Taking a position from the start, as Québec isnt divisable, is puting the odds on your side. Its all long term thought.

But as I've repeated time after time, nothing is clear until there is a mandate. Winning a referendum isnt independance the day after, its a mandate to negotiate independance. And with that, everything is on the table.

You are insinuating the seperatists are intellegent, if they really were, they would not be banking on the Natives to follow them blindly in to an abyss. Nor would they assume, that the Natives will not rise up.

Actually, come to think of it, if they were intellegent, they wouldn't want to seperate in the first place.
 
Numure
#13
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

You are insinuating the seperatists are intellegent, if they really were, they would not be banking on the Natives to follow them blindly in to an abyss. Nor would they assume, that the Natives will not rise up.

Like the natives pose a treat to anyone? The only reason they are still around is out of pity and remorse.
 
CDNBear
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#14
Quote: Originally Posted by NumureView Post

Like the natives pose a treat to anyone? The only reason they are still around is out of pity and remorse.

Please continue to tell yourself and your fellow seperatists that. I'll wave at you from the top of an old APC as we drive down your street, You'll recognise it easity. It'll be the one with the big yellow smilie face with a mohawk, painted on the front.

The gun trade on Kahnasatake is lucrative. So is the Army surplus equipment we have.

We'll be seein' ya.
 
Numure
#15
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post

Please continue to tell yourself and your fellow seperatists that. I'll wave at you from the top of an old APC as we drive down your street, You'll recognise it easity. It'll be the one with the big yellow smilie face with a mohawk, painted on the front.

The gun trade on Kahnasatake is lucrative. So is the Army surplus equipment we have.

We'll be seein' ya.

 
CDNBear
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#16
Quote: Originally Posted by NumureView Post

I wonder how hard you and the rest of your racist ilk will be laughing when Quebec is but a sliver or zit on the face of a Great Nation?
 
Numure
#17
We'll send in a few truck loads of beer, some drugs and the problem is solved. Not even 1 police officer dead and we solved the native problem.
 
CDNBear
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#18
Quote: Originally Posted by NumureView Post

We'll send in a few truck loads of beer, some drugs and the problem is solved. Not even 1 police officer dead and we solved the native problem.

Thanx for removing all doubt about your racist tendancies. That will be your down fall Manure.

That's about all you'll be able to send, everyone knows all the QPP or Cirque duh Quebec officers will be hiding or running to join the Laurentien Highlanders. What's left of the Army after only the treasonous ones stay will have nothing in the way of Canadian weapons. So bring it smart guy. We'll see who's laughing at Quebec at the end of the day.
 
Dalreg
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#19
CDNBear I have an idea, Lets get the seperatists on one side and the Native people on the other. Last side standing gets to keep Quebec.
 
Nikki
Free Thinker
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#20
Personally I am so sick and tired of this QUE ****. If you don't want to be a part of Canada get the hell out! What pisses me off abotu it is if you go to the webpage and read what the sepertists want they actually want Canada to continue to support them (financially) and they want to be able to use our money! Sorry but if you want to leave you are one your own.

Quote:

CDNBear I have an idea, Lets get the seperatists on one side and the Native people on the other. Last side standing gets to keep Quebec.

There's a good idea.... *rolls eyes* LOL.
 
Numure
#21
Quote: Originally Posted by CDNBearView Post


That's about all you'll be able to send, everyone knows all the QPP or Cirque duh Quebec officers will be hiding or running to join the Laurentien Highlanders. What's left of the Army after only the treasonous ones stay will have nothing in the way of Canadian weapons. So bring it smart guy. We'll see who's laughing at Quebec at the end of the day.

And we all know the natives will end up burning each others houses down, sniffing coke, drunk 99% of the time, or dealing drugs. Ahh., the native life. All that living on the hard earned money of the average taxpayer.
 
Nikki
Free Thinker
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#22
Quote: Originally Posted by NumureView Post

And we all know the natives will end up burning each others houses down, sniffing coke, drunk 99% of the time, or dealing drugs. Ahh., the native life. All that living on the hard earned money of the average taxpayer.

Wow this is about the most racist thing I have herd all week. WTF is wrong with you? Not all natives are like this at all!. F*CK YOU.
 
Mr.Roboto
#23
So what you are saying CDN Bear is that you support open insurgency against us??? Thus spitting on a democratic separation based on negotiations. Now thats really «canadian»...

Fight the same way as talibans, but then again, you are rooting for our forces overthere right?

Its funny that you get mad (with reason) when you read someone writting negative racial pregudices against the natives but then after you procede by claiming all french canadians are racist and nazis. It goes both ways buddy. All that talk about us hating the natives and wanting to take the reserves is stupid. I saw on tv the other day white folks in Ontario screaming things like « what about my white tribe?» and «white power» in regards of the situation in Caledonia...Oh ya, much more civilized than us nazi francophones. If we are so bad, explain why in the Quebec parliament, we have the only memorial to natives in all the parliaments in Canada?

And then you go about coming here with tanks, and destroying our homes and all. If i'm not mistaken, your mother is francophone. If so, you show soooo much respect for her and her origins.

And finally, since you hate us so much, why do you have the Vandoos ( Royal 22ieme Régiment) coat of arms as your avatar???
 
Nikki
Free Thinker
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#24
hmm, I dont think Bear hates francophones (sp?) I think he is just passionante. Much like that other asshat up there who said all natives are a bunch of drug dealing drunks.

My frustration with que and our goverment is that neither side seems to want to find a solution. The government wants everythign there was and que's response is "well fine I am leaving" . Both are acting like small children as far as I am concerned.
 
Mr.Roboto
#25
I agree with you Nikki, both sides are responsible for this problem. But the one thing that bugs me is why all the talk about separation on this forum? I mean, we have a federalist goverment in power, and I would't be surprised if they where reelected. Due to a weak PQ, with a leader that people don't trust that much, and the fact that the seperation discussion is getting old. The everyday folks around me don't talk about it much, and the news are filled with much more urgent problems to solve. Its just not the talk of the town.

I myself, am not a separatist, but i'm all for more independance, thus having a more descentralized system within the canadian federation. I think that idealy, we should pay taxes to the municipalitys, and then they procede to give the share of the provincial goverment, and in turn the province gives to Ottawa the federal share...yes, loads of problems to start with, but then again, its ok to dream!
 
Nikki
Free Thinker
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#26
Dream is right lol.

I am not sure why there is suddenly all this talk of seperation probably because it's been in the news lately. personally I usually try to stay away from all of it. ie) chaning the ch when it comes on. That beign said I am not to sure why I came and commented on the thread lol.
 
Mr.Roboto
#27
Well, maybe a part of the answer is this.

I believe that the fact that there is a Pro soverenty party in Ottawa is causing this stir. I must say that the Bloc don't weight that much, they can never take power, and they can critic all the goverments moves since they will never have to be judged in their own governing skills. The fact that they simply took more ground in the two past elections is because of the sponsership scandals. They gained alot of votes, even amougst the federalist voters...including yours truly. First time I voted for them( protest vote) and last time also lol.
 
Nikki
Free Thinker
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#28
Quote: Originally Posted by Mr.RobotoView Post

Well, maybe a part of the answer is this.

I believe that the fact that there is a Pro soverenty party in Ottawa is causing this stir. I must say that the Bloc don't weight that much, they can never take power, and they can critic all the goverments moves since they will never have to be judged in their own governing skills. The fact that they simply took more ground in the two past elections is because of the sponsership scandals. They gained alot of votes, even amougst the federalist voters...including yours truly. First time I voted for them( protest vote) and last time also lol.

Well to be honest with you I think the reason it's starting is because of Harper. He has his head so far up Que's ass it's not even funny. And it isn't because he gives a rats ass about que ( don't be fooled he doesnt care) he just needst he votes next election. Why do you think he wanted to change the constitution.

Personally I don't think que would ever actually seperate I think the majority of Qubecers like Canada and don't want to seperate and the only reason they vote sepertist is to have a voice in the government if it came to another refferendum the majority of qubeccers would vote to stay. At least this is what I think. And anyway even if they don't who cares!? Its not like it would cripple our country. (no offense intended to you). The whole thing just makes me steam because the guys in this sepertist party are such selfish asshats. they want to be their own country but they want canadian funding. Ugh makes me boil. We aren't good enough for them but our money is,... grrrr
 
Mr.Roboto
#29
selffish yes, but then again, like I think, wich politician is not selfish? Most of them are all power ungry. They rarelly do serious work in what the common folks realy want them to do. In 10 years of voting age, I never saw either provincial or federal representatives...They represent us??? I doubt it, but I could be wrong.

I can see trought Harper's game. He knows he can get majority thanks to Quebec, maybe even more then in Ontario. The proof, he probably was damn suprised (as well as the Bloc) when the whole Québec City region turned dark blue, from either red or light blue. Its called political credits, they always go for it. He probably knew that with is Québec is a nation thingy, he would not stir much in Québec, and might help give him some votes around here. The thing is, the people that less reacted to the motion...are Quebecers. We didn't really care about it. The big problem seems to be that the word Nation in english is not employed the same way as the french do. We say it as a cultural group as in the nation of Acadia, the Metis Nation, or the First Nations for exemple.

Basically what Harpy, Stephane «Celine» Dion, Jacky Boy and Ducy want is power, political credits, and they do what they do to get it. When I see this, I say «same old, same old»...or « La politique «cé» de la MARDE!!!»
 
Nikki
Free Thinker
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#30
The way I look at voting is "hmm who is the lesser evil?". Personally I think harper is a hudge threat and a crazie. But hey thats just MO.
 

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