The "evil socialist and capitalist" clishes!

[Machjo]

For the most part, I tend to lean more in favour of a capitalist system with some government intervention.

It would seem obvious that there are some aspects of the economy which work better under a capitalistic system (could one immagine a government department trying to figure out how many chocolate bars the country needs to produce for the next year? A tad burocratice if I might say so myself.) while others might work better under government control (privatised nuclear warheads anyone?).

What I don't get though is the cheap shots people throw around to avoid needing to use their brain fro intelligent debate. For instance, if I should suggest that the government ought to nationalise candy cane factories, I don't want someone to just label me a "socialist" (which is really just a cop-out word for debate) but actually explain to me in a logical manner why candy cane factories function better under a capitalist system rather than under a socialist one. In like manner, if I should suggest that we privatise streets and set up toll booths at each intersection, I don't want one to just label me an evil capitalist (again, another cop-out word to avoid intelligent debate) but actually explain to me in a logical manner why roads would work better under a socialist sytem rather than a capitalist one in which toll booths could be set up at each intersection.

Does anyone in this forum think that it would be impossible for us all to stop using such cop-outs which have finally come to mean nothing anymore due to over-use, but actually deal with each individual issue on a case by case basis?

Unless one believes, of couse, that things must go "socialist" all the way (my socks are government property?) or "capitalist" all the way (any nukes for sale?), I'd immagine most people are a little of both anyway Am I wrong in any of this?

 

[Finder]

How's about this? Like most Liberals, NDPers and even .... most conservatives do not believe in pure capitalism or socialism. Though sometimes NDPers and CPCers do however believe the other side are pureists, in fact all three magor parties believe in a blending of both.
Rightfully so, the enlightend schoolers who wrote about these systems were merely human and often made mistakes in there theories. I think having a multi system nation of dualism in capitalism and socialism is a bench mark of any modern democracy, be it the USA, Canada, Sweden, UK to that of France and Germany. No modern democracy is purely capitalistic or socialist. As a democracy we have learned to tolerate the minority and to except rule of the magority as long as both parties recieve something from society.

The only place's were pure forms of capitalism or socialism are professed to take place is where government changes by the gun to either side. Even President Bush could not be seen as a pure capitalist. Even he has some socialist traits. True there not many and the right wing traits outnumber them but he still has them.

I myself who I admit being a social democrat have many right wing believes mixed into my socialist ones and I'd fight for them as well.

Anyhow thats my two cents

 

[the caracal kid]

RE: The "evil socialist a

add too that list of cop-outs terms such as "Liberal", "liberal", etc.

Indeed Finder, there are faults to socialism, capitalism, communism. They are "brothers" of systems, all bound to fall.

However, beyond these three there is definitely the room for a new structure of society to arise.

 

[Finder]

Communism's fault is it's a Utopian theory, and in actuallity if you read Marx, the USSR shouldn't have happend and would not have been considered communist by Marx.

Anyhow you may think me wrong for saying this but Socialism and capitalism as a system can be blended as they have a broad general defination. Communism as a system is a "Scientfic Socialist" theory which can only have one out come and one society and is the one "truth". It's an oxey moron but to believe in this you have to believe that all people can think allmost the same way and live the same way and believe in a Utopian Workers paradice. So I'll stand to the Socialist ----- Capitalist blendings and try to forgot there's people who give Karl Marx's Utopian dreams any greedance in todays society.

 

[the caracal kid]

RE: The "evil socialist a

i agree that socialism and capitalism can be blended, but i think doing so is looking backwards rather than forwards.

 

[Machjo]

It's just not worth debating with you socialist commie liberal fascist capitalist swine!

Until you agree with me on EVERYTHING, that's all you are.

 

[Machjo]

Oh, sorry. I forgot to add conservative to that list.

 

[Finder]

I have to disagree with you there. Almost anything to do with government has a Capitalist, Socialist, Libertarian or a Authoritarian connection to it.

Basically in Canada we are pretty lucky to have all three parties pretty well blended and close to the centre. No matter which party rules you will have pretty much the same outcomes in policy.

 

[darkbeaver]

RE: The "evil socialist a

The debate has taken already taken place and you weren,t
invited and niether was I, the war on terrorism is realy a war on socialism, socialism is for people, capitalism is for capital.

 

[I think not]

Re: RE: The "evil socialist a

The debate has taken already taken place and you weren,t
invited and niether was I, the war on terrorism is realy a war on socialism, socialism is for people, capitalism is for capital.

That's good.

 

[Jay]

Where do I sign up?

 

[MMMike]

Re: RE: The "evil socialist a

The debate has taken already taken place and you weren,t
invited and niether was I, the war on terrorism is realy a war on socialism, socialism is for people, capitalism is for capital.

It is capitalism that creates the wealth that you commies love to distribute to others.

 

[darkbeaver]

Re: RE: The "evil socialist a

The debate has taken already taken place and you weren,t
invited and niether was I, the war on terrorism is realy a war on socialism, socialism is for people, capitalism is for capital.

It is capitalism that creates the wealth that you commies love to distribute to others.

The wealth created by capitalism has not been distributed to the people, capitalism works to exclude people, it ultimately creates only a pile of capital. People create wealth, capitalism creates nothing.
Here are some things that you could say capitalism has created,downsizeing, layoffs, contracting out, thirty years of decline in real income, privatization of public institutions and perpetual war, which of those do you like the best.

 

[MMMike]

Re: RE: The "evil socialist a

The debate has taken already taken place and you weren,t
invited and niether was I, the war on terrorism is realy a war on socialism, socialism is for people, capitalism is for capital.

It is capitalism that creates the wealth that you commies love to distribute to others.

The wealth created by capitalism has not been distributed to the people, capitalism works to exclude people, it ultimately creates only a pile of capital. People create wealth, capitalism creates nothing.
Here are some things that you could say capitalism has created,downsizeing, layoffs, contracting out, thirty years of decline in real income, privatization of public institutions and perpetual war, which of those do you like the best.

If people don't have the capital, who does... robots? Capitalism is the vehicle through which people create wealth. There is nothing inherently bad about any of the things you list (except maybe perpetual war :wink: )... they are part of the process of increased efficiency.

How can you possibly deny that capitalism and free enterprise has lead to incredible advances in quality of life? The vast amount of wealth in the Western world can be traced directly to those things that you decry.

 

[darkbeaver]

MMMIKE SAID

"If people don't have the capital, who does... robots? Capitalism is the vehicle through which people create wealth. There is nothing inherently bad about any of the things you list (except maybe perpetual war Wink )... they are part of the process of increased efficiency.

How can you possibly deny that capitalism and free enterprise has lead to incredible advances in quality of life? The vast amount of wealth in the Western world can be traced directly to those things that you decry."

Labour creates wealth capital creates nothing, and your process
of increased efficiency left to proceed ultimatly leads to one huge pile of capital and no workers.

 

[MMMike]

Don't make the mistake of believing only manufacturing and labour is the only source of wealth. As economies advance, more and more jobs are in the service sector. We're at around 2/3 in most Western countries if I'm not mistaken. You can idealize "the working man" all you want: without Bay Street and the man in suits, we'd still be stuck in the 19th century.

 

[darkbeaver]

RE: The "evil socialist a

What your saying is o/k but it ain,t just the western world
since the global thing. Our wealth depends on the poverty of
75% of the global community, we spread it arround more evenly or we die.

 

[MMMike]

Re: RE: The "evil socialist a

What your saying is o/k but it ain,t just the western world
since the global thing. Our wealth depends on the poverty of
75% of the global community, we spread it arround more evenly or we die.

No no no no!!!! It's not a zero sum game where our gain is someone elses loss. In fact it is the opposite: development is a positive feedback loop. Do you think Ontario would be better off if Alberta's economy crashed and burned? Would Canada be better off if the U.S. or Europe had a deep fiscal crisis? No... our economies are intertwined and dependant on one another. I agree that we need to give the poorest of the poor a hand up for so many reasons! Name it... social harmony, to prevent terrorism or extremism from taking root, for moral reasons, even for self-serving reasons of greed.

 

[the caracal kid]

RE: The "evil socialist a

this wealth you talk of is merely driven by greed and is of no absolute value. "Value added" is a rediculous term since the greatest value is prior to manipulation.

Unforutunately, mankind still is not much more than a talking hunter-gatherer animal still struggling to crawl out of the cave. This is why it is greed that drives things.

 

[MMMike]

Capitalism isn't perfect, there are numerous downsides, but its the best system we have for generating wealth. Kind of like the Churchill quotation about democracy: 'its the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time'. Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater: yes capitalism can have unwanted 'side effects', but it is our best hope for raising the standard of living of impoverished countries around the world.