Don't Blame Ontario!!

Americans would love to get their hands on the Wests Natural Resources... and the Americans would eat up the resources to no end... Until there is nothing left.

Really? I did not know that... that is sad... Your own provincial government is selling out your childrens' futures!

do find it ironic that you seem to be of the opinion that all of BC wanted Stephen Harper in.

Harper's neo-conservatism and refusal to rein in the religious right in his party caused him to get less than 50% of the popular vote in BC and Alberta in

Bev said,

Quote:

do find it ironic that you seem to be of the opinion that all of BC wanted Stephen Harper in.

Apparently in response to me saying,

Quote:

Harper's neo-conservatism and refusal to rein in the religious right in his party caused him to get less than 50% of the popular vote in BC and Alberta in

Now I know I've had almost five beer since I got home at 4:15 (it's 11:02 here now, according to my computer), but I'm kind of wondering if these arent very special beer...

I would put soft Western separatism at 15% in Alberta, 10% in BC and Saskatchewan, and about 2% here in Manitoba. Hard would cut the numbers at least in half. I have yet to meet a western separtist (hard or soft) who could even be vaguely considered a moderate. That's mot a scientific poll or anything, just a judgement based on what people have said.

I know a lot of people from BC and Alberta and Separatism won't fly. It does not have the support. If the separtists weren't so far to the right, it might stand a chance.

They are far to the right though, as far as Stephen Harper and more. Especially on social issues. Harper's neo-conservatism and refusal to rein in the religious right in his party caused him to get less than 50% of the popular vote in BC and Alberta in an election where the general population was pissed off at the federal Liberals. He lost ground compared to the combined Alliance/PC vote the election before.

Why wouldn't we be? I know many many people who would love to seperate, and like me, they are all from Vancouver or surrounding areas.

As you are from Nova Scotia, how would you know? Got a friend or two out here?

Okay, let's start out with a few basics. I don't call them rednecks too often because I know them. I'm one of them.

I said Alberta and BC, not just Alberta. Check the numbers, they lost the popular vote. They Lost the popular vote.

While you're at it check the eligible voters in Alberta. Most who could have voted for the Conservatives didn't...many just didn't vote.

I'm pissed off at the Liberals too. They are far too conservative, especially under Martin, for anybody who believes in human rights taking precedence over money or nationalism to support. The Liberals play both ends against the middle and win every time.

The Conservative party may not be a separatist party, but they are one prone to promoting regionalization. It was Stephie who wanted to build the firewall around Alberta, rememeber? Jack Layton never suggested doing that around Alberta and Paul Martin never suggested it about Ontario or Quebec.

As long as Stephen Harper is leading the Conservatives, as long as they will not dispossess themselves from being the Republican North Party, they will niot be electable. They managed less than 100 seats when the entire country was pissed off at the Liberals. As the only party that's considered a viable alternative, that really sucks.

They are, in their present form, very divisive though, Crash. That divisiveness pushes some of the more conservative people in the west to consider separtism an alternative. It is impossible to separate western alienation, western separatism, and the Reform/Alliance/Conservatives.

The Conservatives are no longer the party of Joe Clark, or even Brian Mulroney. They are very much the child of Preston Manning and Stephen Harper.

I at least have some respect for Manning...he believes in Canada as a country. I do not have the same respect for Harper because he believes is Alberta, more specifically the oil patch, as a country and wants the rest of the country to be just like them.

Now look at the response when the rest of Canada rejected Harper as a leader. The shouts for separatism grew louder, those on the right blamed Ontario instead of Harper.

I would say that your appraisal of disaffected voters is wrong. The largest demographic of disaffected voters are young people. They tend to vote much more left than other other demographics. If they were to show up at the polls, you would see the Conservatives fortunes sink even lower. Alberta and BC are no exception to that.

A relatively large number of those disaffected voters are also politically involved and aware. They do not feel represented by the two main parties and do not feel that voting for the parties of their choice will make a difference, so they stay home. I doubt they'd stay home in a vote to break away from the rest of Canada though.

Conservatism the way it is practiced by Stephen Harper and his ilk certainly does promote separatism. That is clear in statements he has made in the past and in the similar ideas that come from the separatist movement and the Conservatives.

I think this is very much the take from someone far on the outside of the party looking in.

I would challenge you to tell me why Brian Mulroney and Stephen Harper are anything but ideological bretheren.

Harper is very much a Canadian, he just has a decentralized vision of the country that doesn't mesh with yours. The members of the party east of Manitoba also do not see the divisiveness you speak of.

Some comment Harper made out of context 10 years ago is not going to cut it for them, or me.

They thought that no matter who was in power that the views of the west were not suitably being heard since the power electoral base lies in central Canada.

Had reformers as a group been dedicated to western separatism they would not have gone the conciliatory route with other conservatives. They would have gone the separation route, with the formation of the new moderate party many reformers have actually left to persue it.

You are right in one respect though, like I have said in past posts westerners political culture, especially in Alberta is to the right. More so than other parts of the country. Naturally as I also have said any western separatists would have to be accordingly to the right. So yes, it is difficult to small c conservatism and western separatism since it is the predominant political culture.

I don't know if I made an apprasial per se but I can say with 100% certainty it is impossible to weigh the possible results of those people who are not voting.

Fruthermore, as I said as far as Canadian democracy is concerned, if they are not voting they do not exist.

Have you ever canvassed for a political party?

Perhaps the largest percentage of a demographic that does not vote are youth but that does not mean the majority. I would say that equal amounts of conservative voters also do not vote for sometimes completely different reasons across the demographic spectrum (youth included).

I agree with you that there are most certainly a lot of NDP voters or Marxists or what have you who are very aware and are not voting.

I disagree, Stephen Harper has always been about a fair shake for the west and nothing more. He is not commanding personality cult of western separatists behind the scenes, just so happens a lot of the western members of the party, and voters and thus his supporters are soft separatists.

Except that because of where I come from and people I know, I hear this from within the separatist movement, the Reform/Alliance/Conservatives, and red tories who left the party. That's a pretty wide swath of Canadian conservatism.

They are ideological brethren when it comes to their neo-conservative ideals and their love affair with all things American.

Where the split came, and it caused Harper to leave Mulroney's party, is that Mulroney believed in all of Canada while Harper is really interested only in Alberta. Harper's version of Canada consists of the "have" provinces keeping all that they have and the "have not" provinces starving. That's a tune that will change as oil becomes less important to the economy, which is the basis of Harper's rejection of Kyoto.

We could tell Mulroney was active behind the scenes by the huge debt that the proposed Conservative platform would have left us in.

Funny, I heard different from people all over the country, many who voted for Harper in an attempt to oust the Liberals, many who actually agree with the Americanisation of Canada.

Funny, everytime I saw one of Harper's quotes the context was given. When he said what he said doen't matter when taken in the context of the last election either. He was still arguing that Alberta should be able to keep everything and that the other provinces didn't matter. He came out against Kyoto, which most Canadians outside of Alberta support, he never did manage to weasle out of his support for the illegal invasion of Iraq, which few Canadians still support, his military policy clearly supported bilateral action with the US over multilateral action through the UN.

These are not views held by the majority of Canadians and are held most strongly in Alberta. Harper based his policies on what Albertans consider important, not what Canadians consider important, and was beaten for it.

He is not considered moderate by the majority of Canadians. The majority of Canadians find his policies way too far to the right. His refusal to rein in the religious right in his party also caused massive problems for him. Most Canadians do not want other people's religious beliefs being introduced in the House of Commons...not even as private members bills.

Since we live in a democracy and the majority of the population is in Ontario and Quebec, that's going to be reality for a long time. Alberta did get two more seats this time around though, based on population. Gee, democracy in action...more votes, more say.

Yeah, and Lucien Bouchard was never a part of Mulroney's cabinet either. Quebec and Alberta may be different in a lot of ways, but don't think the formation of the BQ went unnoticed in the Reform/Alliance/Conservatives.

First of all, the west starts about a ten minute drive east of my house, there's a big, green sign, so kindly quit referring to Alberta as the west. It is not the west, it is Alberta. Manitoba, Saskatchewan, and BC have all elected NDP governments provincially on a fairly regular basis, so your assessment that the west has a predominantly conservative political culture is highly suspect.

It's not impossible though. Most polls among non-voters show that they lean to left. Those that do lean to the right tend to be libertarian. The general theme presented by both groups is that corporations run everything anyway, so there isn't much point in voting.

Why is it that those on the right always manage to lump Marxists in with the NDP? You forgot to mention Greens who have left the party because it has become so right wing; CAP supporters who did not have a candidate or knew that their candidate could not win; all those people who have disaffected by the NDP because they perceive provincial NDP governments as being too far right; and all those people who have given up voting because they feel that our democracy has been lost to the corporations.

Disagree all you want. His words and proposed policies are a matter of public record.

He has a long-standing tradition of taking his bat and ball and going home if he doesn't get his way, that's why Preston Manning called him a quitter.

Harper's followers have the same attitude. That's why when Canadians rejected their policies and ideas they started screaming, once again and louder than ever, that Alberta should separate...take their bat and ball and go home. It took a long time for the movers and shakers behind the scenes in the Conservative Party to convince Harper not to embarrass himself again by quitting, but they have yet to find a way to silence Harper's spiritual twins.

The Charter should have a clause in it that stipulates "Once a year, the premiers from the other 9 provinces should meet in Toronto and bend on one knee and kiss the ass of the Ontario premier".