The reinvention of the left

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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I was watching CBC the other night showing how part of the reason for the Conservative win was its winning over much of the 'ethnic' vote along with an increase in working-class votes (two groups especially the NDp claims to stand for).

Clearly someone in the NDP or Liberal Party dropped the ball.

It would seem to me that if the NDP and Liberals want to win these groups back, they're going to have to articulate not only their policies better (which they have done a decent job of already, though they could still do better), but also how these policies will benefit the poor and minorities (which is where I think they really dropped the ball).

After all, if you're a worker in a company that exports goods, will you be so fond of a party that wants to bring back protectionism? If you're looking for work, will you be so fond of the government raising the minimum wage? And how do you see taxpayer funding of political parties helping you get job training if your unemployed?

I'm not saying the right is perfect either of course, but I think if the left wants to win these votes back, it will have to better articulate what concrete benefits these kinds of policies present to the most vulnerable.

Now if the left managed to do these things well, then the ball would be on the right's side to defend the cost of being members of the G8 and G20, NATO, NORAD, etc.

Of course the left has to also defend how funding for the CBC benefits everyday people on the ground. Though granted some of the CBC's local educational radio programming in the North providing practical information might be useful, but most of the rest of it is already being offered by the private sector anyway.
 

mentalfloss

Prickly Curmudgeon Smiter
Jun 28, 2010
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Weren't the conservatives lambasted for pandering to stereotypes instead of legitimately caring about the 'ethnic' vote?
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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Weren't the conservatives lambasted for pandering to stereotypes instead of legitimately caring about the 'ethnic' vote?

They were, and the 'ethnic' vote still seems to have swung over to them. Sure many voted left too, but many have switched right. The question now is, how will the left win them a back?

I think the left has a few strong points as far as the 'ethnic' vote goes in terms of immigration for example. Byond that though, remember that the 'ethnic' vote pays taxes too. Now sure you might have the rabid foaming at the mouth extreme right-wing opposed to all taxes type of conservative. However, even those who don't mind paying taxes still want to be sure their money is spent wisely. They still want to ensure that laws passed are not just well-intentioned, but also well thought out.

That is missing from the current left for the most part.

Just to take a clear example of where the left falls short currently:

If you point out to most leftists that raising the minimum wage could price unskilled labour out of the market, they'll just react emotionallly, unable to give a response. Now some on the left will be more reasonable, acknowledge this problem, and propose that the government will provide job training for the unemployed so as to raise their skill level so as to make them worth the new minimum wage. Some really reasonable ones might even propose that though they're in favour of raising the minimum wage in principle, they'd only support it on condition that such training be provided, and would be prepared to scrap the minimum wage the moment funidng for job training for the unemployed is cut.

Others might even point out how, if sufficient funding is provided for job training for the underpaid, that it defeats the need for minimum wage legislation anyway, making it redundant. There may be other answers too, but most either ignore the question or react angrily with insulsts.

The same applies with protectionism. Most react angrily. But only some on the left will actually propose how to deal with those who lose their jobs in the export sector.

Once the left stops ignoring these issues but instead presents solid solutions to deal with them will votes go back to the left.
 

DurkaDurka

Internet Lawyer
Mar 15, 2006
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Weren't the conservatives lambasted for pandering to stereotypes instead of legitimately caring about the 'ethnic' vote?

Many recent immigrants are in fact conservative and come from conservative countries, so I don't know if it would be completely fair to refer to the Conservatives seeking these votes as "pandering".
 

karrie

OogedyBoogedy
Jan 6, 2007
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I was watching CBC the other night showing how part of the reason for the Conservative win was its winning over much of the 'ethnic' vote along with an increase in working-class votes (two groups especially the NDp claims to stand for).

Clearly someone in the NDP or Liberal Party dropped the ball.

It would seem to me that if the NDP and Liberals want to win these groups back, they're going to have to articulate not only their policies better (which they have done a decent job of already, though they could still do better), but also how these policies will benefit the poor and minorities (which is where I think they really dropped the ball).

Perhaps part of the failing of the left is that they assume that minorities don't understand them if they don't vote for them. There are few things in this life more insulting than being talked down to.
 

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
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The NDP which is the mainstream left party is seen by many that belong to working unions as pandering to government employees unions which do not have the same needs as the rest of us and are seen to be out of touch with the reality the average taxpayer faces. While we worry about the economy and how will affect our jobs the militant government employees unions are demanding more pay and bennies for less work.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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The NDP which is the mainstream left party is seen by many that belong to working unions as pandering to government employees unions which do not have the same needs as the rest of us and are seen to be out of touch with the reality the average taxpayer faces. While we worry about the economy and how will affect our jobs the militant government employees unions are demanding more pay and bennies for less work.

I can agree with that. perhaps the NDP would need to disassociate itself from labour unions in order to expand its base in future.

Perhaps part of the failing of the left is that they assume that minorities don't understand them if they don't vote for them. There are few things in this life more insulting than being talked down to.

Another good point.
 

cranky

Time Out
Apr 17, 2011
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I would say the NDP represents the working man at a provincial level, but who says that this was ever the case for a federal election? support producing 9 seats, doesn't suggest to me that the working class has ever really supported the federal NDP prior to this election.
 

Colpy

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Nov 5, 2005
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Weren't the conservatives lambasted for pandering to stereotypes instead of legitimately caring about the 'ethnic' vote?

Well, I guess the "ethnic vote" didn't mind being stereotyped. :)

I would say the NDP represents the working man at a provincial level, but who says that this was ever the case for a federal election? support producing 9 seats, doesn't suggest to me that the working class has ever really supported the federal NDP prior to this election.

Outside of Quebec, the NDP took 18.9 percent of the vote.

The working man certainly does not support the NDP.

There was no NDP surge outside Quebec. Indeed, beyond that province, the party has hit a glass ceiling. In ridings where there is no faculty club, no concentration of civil servants or public-sector workers (nurses, teachers, social workers, etc.), no large numbers of freshman and graduate students, and no colonies of enviro-agitators, there is not much hope for the NDP.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...-50-years-of-shade-grown-champagne-socialism/

A good piece, worth the read.
 

Nuggler

kind and gentle
Feb 27, 2006
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Backwater, Ontario.
Perhaps part of the failing of the left is that they assume that minorities don't understand them if they don't vote for them. There are few things in this life more insulting than being talked down to.


Yepper, and we would have been in for a lot of that if Iggy had carried the day.

Black Jack Shellac likes the pulpit as well.

Hell, I'm startin to like Harpo.

Someone pass the arsenic pill, please.

...funny how they did so well in Northern Ontario....


Christ, yes. Wish I'd never left it.

woops - left again.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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most labour code exists at a provincial level, thats why we see NDP provincial governments.

I am sure the Labour Code in New Brunswick was written by Jack Irving. :)

It is a joke.....no maximum hours of work, no overtime pay. (after 44 hours OT is set at 1 1/2 x the minimum wage)

I've seen $9 an hour sub-contracted security guys fighting over shifts after working 70 hours already that week.......because they are trying to support a family. And after 44 hours they made the princely sum of $12 hour. ($8 minimum wage)

I've seen a company insist that a guard work a 14 hour day, 6 days a week, every week, for 6 months. He made a little over $12 an hour, so no overtime would be paid.

Just insane.

We could use a little labour considerate gov't in this part of the country.......

It is everything else that goes with it that drives anyone sane over the edge..

(BTW, minimum wage in NB will be $10 by September)
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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I am sure the Labour Code in New Brunswick was written by Jack Irving. :)

It is a joke.....no maximum hours of work, no overtime pay. (after 44 hours OT is set at 1 1/2 x the minimum wage)

I've seen $9 an hour sub-contracted security guys fighting over shifts after working 70 hours already that week.......because they are trying to support a family. And after 44 hours they made the princely sum of $12 hour. ($8 minimum wage)

I've seen a company insist that a guard work a 14 hour day, 6 days a week, every week, for 6 months. He made a little over $12 an hour, so no overtime would be paid.

Just insane.

We could use a little labour considerate gov't in this part of the country.......

It is everything else that goes with it that drives anyone sane over the edge..

The problem with minimum wage though is that it's always arbitrary and risks pricing unskilled labour out of the market.

What I could agree to though would be German-style codetermination legislation. That way, workers would also get to vote on the board of directors. The way it works in Germany is that workers have 50% of the vote on the board of directors, but the chairman must be elected by the shareholders and his vote breaks any ties. That I think is reasonable. That way workers could negotiate their own labour standards, whether it's higher wages, daycare services, food provided at lunch, etc. After all, some workers might benefit more from some other service the company can offer rather than a wage increase. But why not just democratize the workplace and then let the workers decide for themselves.

And to protect lower-paid workers, we could always provide free job training for those earning below a certain income for example, or allow them to apply for this training and quit their job if accepted without penalty from EI etc. I think that would be preferable to minimum wage.
 

cranky

Time Out
Apr 17, 2011
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the provincial government decides on issues much larger than minimum wage.

If a company owns 2 adjacent mines, ie a gate separates them, thats all.
1 mine is unionized and has been for 3 decades, the other is young and never unionized. When the union tried to raid the new mine, the courts ruled that it was a separate mine and operates as such so it was not to be made union by default.

However, if the company locks out the union, and opens the gate to have the non unionized employees operate in the union mine, what would you do?

The NDP in BC stated that if it was a legal lockout or a legal strike, the moment the non unionized employees cross that gate, the two mines would officially become one.
 

Machjo

Hall of Fame Member
Oct 19, 2004
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My paroblem with labour unions is that they are economically inefficient. No wealth is being produced while they are on strike, and so in the long term it hurts them, the company, and the overall national economy owing to their having less to pay in taxes.

Insrtead, if we just gave workers a vote on the board of directors, rather than have to fight for salaries etc., they could mroe easily negotiate a fair settlement without going on strike, thus alloing them to continue working and so creat a larger pie to share from.

That's what attracts me to codetermination legislation.
 

Durry

House Member
May 18, 2010
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Anybody that would rely on the CBC for accurate political information is either a dreamer or a socialist!! (errr and probably an easterner!!)
 

DurkaDurka

Internet Lawyer
Mar 15, 2006
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Anybody that would rely on the CBC for accurate political information is either a dreamer or a socialist!! (errr and probably an easterner!!)

Idiotic statements like that only further my belief that you are in fact brain damaged.
 

Durry

House Member
May 18, 2010
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What is amazing is that everybody (most everybody) in the west hates the CBC, yet it is the west that has to pay the CBC the Billion $ + to support the CBC thru transfer payments. And it is only enjoyed by the easterners!!!

Hmmmm, just another example,,,,,,,,,etc