July 4th, 2008, 01:06 PM
Quoting dancing-loon
I support your freedom to believe what you want, as long as you don't force your own beliefs on my family. If you're are catholic and your religion dictated what I could or couldn't do, I wouldn't have a family right now, and that's a fact. So when I see the people of God trying to run other peoples reproductive lives I take it pretty seriously.
That's sooo understandable, Kreskin. I, in my younger years, might have done the same, if confronted with that situation. Note, I said might. Because I believe in Karma, and life before and after death, my thinking is a little different from the strictly materialistic and no-God people. Please, no offense intended... I don't know your religious thinking, but it seems that for you and many others life starts at birth and ends at death. Period!
Quoting dancing-loon
Personal rights aren't gender specific. If government has the ability to take away your rights they have the ability to take away mine.
One thing is most peculiar here... a lot of pro-choicers are men!! Am I missing something?
The Angry Beaver
Posts: 3,631 
Location: Atlantic Canada
Location: Atlantic Canada
July 4th, 2008, 01:16 PM
That and I imagine women are more for having children in their lives then men.
It could also be that women are fearful of the label that would be put on them by their community if they spoke out, so they remain quiet until the situation comes their way where they will have to make a decision.
But regardless of which gender believes in Pro-Choice or Pro-Life.... The choice and decisions in which directly affect yourself should be put in the hands of yourself, no matter what that situation may be..... be that medical/assisted suicide, abortions, some risky operation/proceedure, or working at McDonald's for the rest of your life.
Quoting dancing-loon
Well I can't find any studies to confirm your comment on which gender is more pro-choice.... but perhaps why most men are pro-choice, is it might help reduce the chances they'll have all their income and home milked away in custody/divorce battles if no child exists
One thing is most peculiar here... a lot of pro-choicers are men!! Am I missing something?
That and I imagine women are more for having children in their lives then men.
It could also be that women are fearful of the label that would be put on them by their community if they spoke out, so they remain quiet until the situation comes their way where they will have to make a decision.
But regardless of which gender believes in Pro-Choice or Pro-Life.... The choice and decisions in which directly affect yourself should be put in the hands of yourself, no matter what that situation may be..... be that medical/assisted suicide, abortions, some risky operation/proceedure, or working at McDonald's for the rest of your life.
The Angry Beaver
Posts: 3,631
Location: Atlantic Canada
Location: Atlantic Canada
July 4th, 2008, 01:19 PM
Why are christians afraid of non-believers having abortions anyways? Wouldn't that mean later on there would be less non-believers and more christians in the world? I figured the system this way would work in your guy's favor
Quoting Kreskin
One thing I would like to add to this, is:
I support your freedom to believe what you want, as long as you don't force your own beliefs on my family. If you're are catholic and your religion dictated what I could or couldn't do, I wouldn't have a family right now, and that's a fact. So when I see the people of God trying to run other peoples reproductive lives I take it pretty seriously.
Why are christians afraid of non-believers having abortions anyways? Wouldn't that mean later on there would be less non-believers and more christians in the world? I figured the system this way would work in your guy's favor
House Member
Posts: 3,091
July 4th, 2008, 02:08 PM
If the fetus is a person, then you should not in any way legally be allowed to abort, even if the mothers life is in danger.
You can't murder an innocent baby, ever. Even if the mothers life is in danger.
Even if the baby is a product of incestous rape.
If abortion is wrong on the grounds its killing a baby (murder) then its always wrong, no exceptions (unless you can think of a time its ok to murder a 2 year old toddler).
And I don't agree with that. I don't agree a fetus is a person.
I also don't like the term "pro-life", because Im pro-life too.
Hell, since the opposing view is that fetuses are not alive, everyone who is pro-choice is also pro-life.
Its really Pro-abortion and Anti-Abortion.
I'd settle for everyone being forced to call it pro-slavery and pro-murder though, then everyone could be equally indignant.
Quoting dancing-loon
The main problem here is you don't have a coherent reason to be against abortion.
yes, that could be. I have an adopted grandchild, and know the mother is o.k., she married and has two children = normal family. She has met her first-born a couple of times and is in touch with my daughter... it's an open and friendly relationship, with grandparents included and visiting as well. This reaching-out to her by my daughter has made the situation less traumatic for all involved, I think. This is probably a rarity. In most cases, especially from decades ago, mother and child never meet again. This is for many adopted children also a chip on their shouldersWe are talking about Canada, Zarkov! I have seen several young, unmarried mothers with their kid or kids, being taken care of by social services. I respect these girls for keeping and raising their children!Yes, a miscarriage is very tough on a woman, but that has nothing to do with Dr. Morgentaler! Any other "dangerous complication" has always been handled in a way that the life of the mother takes priority. I agree with that, because what good is it for the baby, if it doesn't have a mother? Sure, the Dad and other relatives would and could take care of the baby.By all means, then let's murder a million babies to have a hundred criminals less to deal with!!
I know, Zarkov, a bunch of you pro-choicers have chosen to put my head on the butcher block!
This abortion issue has always been hotly debated, because we have strong emotions attached to it. My position is pro-life, and that is, among other reasons, because I have given birth to several children. IF I would imagine to have had any one of them aborted for no other reason than inconvenience, I would be very, very sad, but because I let the child live I see what a beautiful person it has become. And here is another aspect of blanket abortion... we never even consider whom we are flushing down the toilet!! The gift, the talents, the love, and the life this trusting spirit would have brought into the world... all gone!!
Decisions for an abortion are most often made in haste and bad advice, because the sooner - the better and less complicated.
In my opinion Mr. M. could have used his love and devotion for women in a much more constructive way by establishing counseling, educating and generally supporting and comforting facilities. I would have admiration for him instead of disgust.
Sure, he is heralded by many as a woman liberator! It is all a matter of the individual's level of consciousness, and it is great to have the freedom to choose as well as the obligation to accept and bear the responsibilities that go along with that choice.
I know, Zarkov, a bunch of you pro-choicers have chosen to put my head on the butcher block! This abortion issue has always been hotly debated, because we have strong emotions attached to it. My position is pro-life, and that is, among other reasons, because I have given birth to several children. IF I would imagine to have had any one of them aborted for no other reason than inconvenience, I would be very, very sad, but because I let the child live I see what a beautiful person it has become. And here is another aspect of blanket abortion... we never even consider whom we are flushing down the toilet!! The gift, the talents, the love, and the life this trusting spirit would have brought into the world... all gone!! Decisions for an abortion are most often made in haste and bad advice, because the sooner - the better and less complicated.
In my opinion Mr. M. could have used his love and devotion for women in a much more constructive way by establishing counseling, educating and generally supporting and comforting facilities. I would have admiration for him instead of disgust.
Sure, he is heralded by many as a woman liberator! It is all a matter of the individual's level of consciousness, and it is great to have the freedom to choose as well as the obligation to accept and bear the responsibilities that go along with that choice.
If the fetus is a person, then you should not in any way legally be allowed to abort, even if the mothers life is in danger.
You can't murder an innocent baby, ever. Even if the mothers life is in danger.
Even if the baby is a product of incestous rape.
If abortion is wrong on the grounds its killing a baby (murder) then its always wrong, no exceptions (unless you can think of a time its ok to murder a 2 year old toddler).
And I don't agree with that. I don't agree a fetus is a person.
I also don't like the term "pro-life", because Im pro-life too.
Hell, since the opposing view is that fetuses are not alive, everyone who is pro-choice is also pro-life.
Its really Pro-abortion and Anti-Abortion.
I'd settle for everyone being forced to call it pro-slavery and pro-murder though, then everyone could be equally indignant.
Council Member
Posts: 2,222
Location: in town
Location: in town
July 5th, 2008, 01:23 AM
I believe there is a God, I believe in the teachings of Christ, and I believe at this point in my evolution in Reincarnation. Are those the marks of a super religious person? I am not a member of any church or group or whatsoever. And it is because of my belief that I accept and respect anybody. I believe we are all here to learn and develop, so we can become like Christ eventually. And because it takes many life-times, we have to come back over and over. The only way we can enter earth again is through conception and birth. If a woman aborts she denies the Spirit/Soul that opportunity, as well she destroys the body the Soul had started to build. It is a sad and chaotic experience on both sides!
To me that is sad! Tragic for all of us, because we are all connected.
And so we all, as a community, stand mutely and meekly by while millions of babies get ripped apart by the powerful suction pumps, little fingers and toes and other bits and pieces, all gets flushed down the sewer pipes.
And Praxi says to Loon, 'don't cry... it was just a lump of meat!' That's where we differ! Do you suppose that at this first breath the spirit/soul entered the little body? while prior to that it was just a lump attached to the mother and could at any time be destroyed without impact on the spirit/soul?
Quoting Praxius
First of all, explain to me what a super religious person looks and acts like. If you want to label me by any chance as such a person, and who would treat your girlfriend like scum, because she had an abortion, then we should stop right here!!
Because there can and will be many other unforeseen situations that are not covered under sexual assault or health complications.... and besides that, back before he opened the door as you say, those who still got abortions when they had no other choice were treated like scum by the super religious, and still made the availability to choose to do so, or to find a clinic that would do it, next to impossible.
I believe there is a God, I believe in the teachings of Christ, and I believe at this point in my evolution in Reincarnation. Are those the marks of a super religious person? I am not a member of any church or group or whatsoever. And it is because of my belief that I accept and respect anybody. I believe we are all here to learn and develop, so we can become like Christ eventually. And because it takes many life-times, we have to come back over and over. The only way we can enter earth again is through conception and birth. If a woman aborts she denies the Spirit/Soul that opportunity, as well she destroys the body the Soul had started to build. It is a sad and chaotic experience on both sides!
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Yes, I have to agree that he improved the access and availability. A safe place, I believe, was available already in any hospital. He removed all legal barriers, so that Canada stands unique in the world without any regulations at all. Mr. Morgentaler acted to the best of his conscience and understanding. To many pregnant women he was the savior. But he totally disregarded the life of the fetus, the body that was developing inside the womb.
He at least made it possible for the practice to be more accepted than before, giving the women a safe place to get it done, as well as giving some protection to the doctors who perform such operations.
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I won't look, because it would break me!! But yes, go ahead and do it... you are protected by the law!! Praxi, you are an individual but you are also a part of a much bigger whole, called humanity. The way humanity treats its unborn, its children, its handicapped, its elderly, and its prisoners defines it from barbaric to spiritually refined. In Canada right now the unborn has no protection, no right even to be born at least.
And once again, even if a couple or a woman wanted to get rid of their baby just because they didn't want it and for no other reasons...... why is it any of your business? Why is it anybody else's business other than their own? It's their body and the fetus created was created by their body's resources and they can have the fetus ripped out of them just like a useless apendix if they so wish.
To me that is sad! Tragic for all of us, because we are all connected.
And so we all, as a community, stand mutely and meekly by while millions of babies get ripped apart by the powerful suction pumps, little fingers and toes and other bits and pieces, all gets flushed down the sewer pipes.
And Praxi says to Loon, 'don't cry... it was just a lump of meat!' That's where we differ!
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No, no control... that's not what I wanted anyway, because then I would be absorbed in your karma. But I would like to discuss the matter with you before you go ahead with the abortion. I would like you to try and understand my point of view.
People sometimes need to take out the emotional appeal of a situation to just get down to the cold hard truth.... their decisions and actions are out of your control, not that you should have had control in the first place over another human being.
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Alright, now we come to the crux of the matter! That lump is not human until it comes into the light and starts breathing? Although it had a pumping heart, and looked exactly like a miniature human... no. it's not human, says Praxi, it first has to take a deep breath and then, only then it is a human being!! What a miracle!! We now call it a baby!
And to me, You're not human and you're not born until you take your first independant breath outside of the womb and detached from the mother.... until then, you're a fetus, I'm a fetus, everybody is a fetus.... feeding and living directly from within the mother, and any and all actions the mother takes, the fetus takes as well.... it's entire structure is set up to be completely dependant on the mother. Until the Fetus becomes independant on it's own organs, it isn't a human being in my view.
Do you suppose that at this first breath the spirit/soul entered the little body? while prior to that it was just a lump attached to the mother and could at any time be destroyed without impact on the spirit/soul?Quote:
Why ask then?
Agree or Agree to disagree... it matters not to me.
Council Member
Posts: 2,222
Location: in town
Location: in town
July 5th, 2008, 02:27 AM
Do you know Tolstoi? He wrote a story of an angel who had to go down to earth and take the life of a mother who had just given birth to twins. He couldn't do it! So he pleaded with God, but no, he had to go back and bring the mother's soul to heaven, leaving the twin babies to their fate. Because of his refusal the angel had to go and live as a human on earth to learn three lessons. The one was "man does not know what he needs". That is very true! He worked for a shoemaker. One day a big fat man came in his troika and brought him the finest leather money could buy, and he wanted a pair of boots made that would last a long time. To the shoemakers horror the angel made a pair of death shoes! a few days later the big man's wife came and said her husband had died and he needed death shoes, no boots. The angel gave her the shoes he had made.
And so it is with us, we do not know whether to save the mother's life or the baby's life. We do the best we can.
Quoting Zzarchov
I don't?
The main problem here is you don't have a coherent reason to be against abortion.
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We are humans, not Gods yet. So we make the best decision we are able to with the knowledge we have.
If the fetus is a person, then you should not in any way legally be allowed to abort, even if the mothers life is in danger.
Do you know Tolstoi? He wrote a story of an angel who had to go down to earth and take the life of a mother who had just given birth to twins. He couldn't do it! So he pleaded with God, but no, he had to go back and bring the mother's soul to heaven, leaving the twin babies to their fate. Because of his refusal the angel had to go and live as a human on earth to learn three lessons. The one was "man does not know what he needs". That is very true! He worked for a shoemaker. One day a big fat man came in his troika and brought him the finest leather money could buy, and he wanted a pair of boots made that would last a long time. To the shoemakers horror the angel made a pair of death shoes! a few days later the big man's wife came and said her husband had died and he needed death shoes, no boots. The angel gave her the shoes he had made.
And so it is with us, we do not know whether to save the mother's life or the baby's life. We do the best we can.
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See above.
You can't murder an innocent baby, ever. Even if the mothers life is in danger. Even if the baby is a product of incestous rape..
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Could it be a human being? We always end up at the point where it is a lump one moment and a person the next. I don't make that hairsplitting distinction,so I can get away with a clean conscience having an abortion. I cannot speak for other mothers! They make their decisions and accept the consequences, known as well as unknown. As I answered Praxius, I care about the unborn... because I don't see it as just a lump of meat, no soul, no spirit.
If abortion is wrong on the grounds its killing a baby (murder) then its always wrong, no exceptions (unless you can think of a time its ok to murder a 2 year old toddler). And I don't agree with that. I don't agree a fetus is a person.
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I'm sure we all are pro-life! It is just a term, change it if you don't like it.
I also don't like the term "pro-life", because Im pro-life too.
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Great!!
Hell, since the opposing view is that fetuses are not alive, everyone who is pro-choice is also pro-life.
Its really Pro-abortion and Anti-Abortion.
I'd settle for everyone being forced to call it pro-slavery and pro-murder though, then everyone could be equally indignant.
Its really Pro-abortion and Anti-Abortion.
I'd settle for everyone being forced to call it pro-slavery and pro-murder though, then everyone could be equally indignant.
Les
Posts: 6,049
Location: 50 acres in Kootenays BC
Location: 50 acres in Kootenays BC
July 5th, 2008, 02:37 AM
Anyway, I admire the guy. It is his oath to do no harm. That put's doctors in some extremely difficult positions when they have to choose one harm or the other or abstain.
Quoting lone wolf
Pretty much echoes my views, too, and I'll add that for other people to lay heavy guilt trips on these women isn't exactly what I would call humane. Also, I would hardly think that these self-righteous people are guilt free of some things themselves: the first one being vanity, that they'd think themselves worthy of judging others in the first place.
Doctor Henry's views are not my own ... but then again, it's not my body. Really, if it's used as birth control, I think it's wrong. That's only my opinion. What is wrong for me isn't necessarily wrong for everybody. The way I see it, as long as the woman can live with her decision, then it's the right one for her - and a clinical setting is a LOT better than the backstreet butcher option before Doctor Henry opened the doors.
Anyway, I admire the guy. It is his oath to do no harm. That put's doctors in some extremely difficult positions when they have to choose one harm or the other or abstain.
Council Member
Posts: 2,222
Location: in town
Location: in town
July 5th, 2008, 02:43 AM
I think, it took two to tango, therefore both should carry the responsibility somewhat equally amongst them.
I can imagine that between harmonizing couples the decision to keep the baby or terminate the pregnancy is made by both of them. The Father is as much involved and affected by whatever decision is made.
Quoting Praxius
Yes, it does put a financial burden on the man, he can't afford his golf membership anymore!!
Well I can't find any studies to confirm your comment on which gender is more pro-choice.... but perhaps why most men are pro-choice, is it might help reduce the chances they'll have all their income and home milked away in custody/divorce battles if no child exists
That and I imagine women are more for having children in their lives then men.
It could also be that women are fearful of the label that would be put on them by their community if they spoke out, so they remain quiet until the situation comes their way where they will have to make a decision.
But regardless of which gender believes in Pro-Choice or Pro-Life.... The choice and decisions in which directly affect yourself should be put in the hands of yourself, no matter what that situation may be..... be that medical/assisted suicide, abortions, some risky operation/proceedure, or working at McDonald's for the rest of your life.
That and I imagine women are more for having children in their lives then men.
It could also be that women are fearful of the label that would be put on them by their community if they spoke out, so they remain quiet until the situation comes their way where they will have to make a decision.
But regardless of which gender believes in Pro-Choice or Pro-Life.... The choice and decisions in which directly affect yourself should be put in the hands of yourself, no matter what that situation may be..... be that medical/assisted suicide, abortions, some risky operation/proceedure, or working at McDonald's for the rest of your life.
I think, it took two to tango, therefore both should carry the responsibility somewhat equally amongst them. I can imagine that between harmonizing couples the decision to keep the baby or terminate the pregnancy is made by both of them. The Father is as much involved and affected by whatever decision is made.
Council Member
Posts: 2,222
Location: in town
Location: in town
July 5th, 2008, 02:52 AM
Quoting Kreskin
I have no thoughts of forcing anything on your family. I don't understand why you are so aggressive towards me.
I support your freedom to believe what you want, as long as you don't force your own beliefs on my family. If you're are catholic and your religion dictated what I could or couldn't do, I wouldn't have a family right now, and that's a fact. So when I see the people of God trying to run other peoples reproductive lives I take it pretty seriously.
Personal rights aren't gender specific. If government has the ability to take away your rights they have the ability to take away mine.
Personal rights aren't gender specific. If government has the ability to take away your rights they have the ability to take away mine.
Council Member
Posts: 2,222
Location: in town
Location: in town
July 5th, 2008, 02:58 AM
Quoting lone wolf
Agreed! Take care of your heart!!!
Do you drive DL ... or ride in a car, or cross streets? Your chances of death are MUCH higher. It comes down to the fact that abortion is a choice. You don't have to like it. I don't have to like it. I didn't like heart surgery either. Lemme tell you all the scarey shyte involved with that....
House Member
Posts: 2,761
Location: California
Location: California
July 7th, 2008, 11:04 AM
The problem I have with the notion of making abortion illegal or imposing restrictions is that most people are as pro-life as their situation allows and no more. It wasn't until I worked in health care that I saw it for myself. About half of people say they are pro-life. Yet, somewhere around 90% of people will choose abortion rather than give birth to a baby with Down's syndrome. That leads me to believe that even pro-life people will make exceptions when it affects them directly. So, I don't see how they can expect others to not have that same luxury.
The problem I have with the notion of making abortion illegal or imposing restrictions is that most people are as pro-life as their situation allows and no more. It wasn't until I worked in health care that I saw it for myself. About half of people say they are pro-life. Yet, somewhere around 90% of people will choose abortion rather than give birth to a baby with Down's syndrome. That leads me to believe that even pro-life people will make exceptions when it affects them directly. So, I don't see how they can expect others to not have that same luxury.
The Angry Beaver
Posts: 3,631
Location: Atlantic Canada
Location: Atlantic Canada
July 7th, 2008, 01:46 PM
In fact, beyond forced marriages, there were many other factors of life which were impacted directly from religious views where they shouldn't have held any authority, and where laws eventually changed those perceptions.
The extreme religious I speak of are those who will fire bomb, beat up, kill, oppress, force out of the community, etc.. those people they felt were sinners and people who would corrupt their ways of life. If you don't do any of these things, then my statement doesn't apply to you.
I was not implying you.... but a general statement to the concept of forcing a view or way of life onto another person where it is unwarrented. So long as you practice and live your life the way you see fit (By following a set religion) makes no difference to you, and you have every right to do so, but you or anybody else has no right to dictate to me how to live my life, just as I have no right to tell you what to believe in..... that is all I am saying.
And since there are various beliefs we all hold and we all determine what life is for ourselves, so too should those decisions be left up to the individual, rather then one set rule.
What your religion tells you of abortions may contradict another religious belief, and so on and so forth...... and regardless if all religions met eye to eye on abortions as being something immoral, religions do not rule whole, and not everybody follows religions..... nor should everybody be forced to follow any or all religions in the first place, so therefore it still remains up to the individual.
If abortions are a sin, the leave that sin to those people who the decision affects.... if they make the wrong decision, then God will deal with them in the end and other humans should just stay out of it.
During pregnancy, go into the womb and surgically cut the umbilical cord and see how long that little fetus' heart will live before it dies without any blood or energy coming from the mother.
Quoting dancing-loon
Fair enough I shall explain a little better. No, I was no implying yourself with the above comment you quoted, I was implying the common religious mainstream that existed before his time and after his time and how more extreme people were before the 80's (When I feel it dropped a bit) when there were family forced marriages when a couple became pregnant (Which existed since half my family formed in that fashion and religious views were the main reasons for the forcing.)
First of all, explain to me what a super religious person looks and acts like. If you want to label me by any chance as such a person, and who would treat your girlfriend like scum, because she had an abortion, then we should stop right here!!
In fact, beyond forced marriages, there were many other factors of life which were impacted directly from religious views where they shouldn't have held any authority, and where laws eventually changed those perceptions.
The extreme religious I speak of are those who will fire bomb, beat up, kill, oppress, force out of the community, etc.. those people they felt were sinners and people who would corrupt their ways of life. If you don't do any of these things, then my statement doesn't apply to you.
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No.... those who are willing to force their views onto others to the point in which they may cause harm or interference in someone else's life in a negative manner that is not wanted are what I call a super religious person.... Muslims who suicide bomb people for their own objectives fall under this category..... christians who murder or attempt to remove the freedoms and rights of someone else to suit their own needs fall under this category.
I believe there is a God, I believe in the teachings of Christ, and I believe at this point in my evolution in Reincarnation. Are those the marks of a super religious person?
I was not implying you.... but a general statement to the concept of forcing a view or way of life onto another person where it is unwarrented. So long as you practice and live your life the way you see fit (By following a set religion) makes no difference to you, and you have every right to do so, but you or anybody else has no right to dictate to me how to live my life, just as I have no right to tell you what to believe in..... that is all I am saying.
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Fair enough, but in my belief, which is somewhat similar to your own, I don't believe the soul enters the fetus until the fetus is born as explained previously..... so there is a debatable difference in our beliefs..... and where there is a debate, there is no absolute answer for all.
I am not a member of any church or group or whatsoever. And it is because of my belief that I accept and respect anybody. I believe we are all here to learn and develop, so we can become like Christ eventually. And because it takes many life-times, we have to come back over and over. The only way we can enter earth again is through conception and birth. If a woman aborts she denies the Spirit/Soul that opportunity, as well she destroys the body the Soul had started to build.
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It was, but the chances of getting that safe environment were a heck of a lot harder to obtain then it is today and that is why he made the changes he made for all women living in Canada.
It is a sad and chaotic experience on both sides!Yes, I have to agree that he improved the access and availability. A safe place, I believe, was available already in any hospital.
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But don't forget, it wasn't all done just by him, as others had to agree with him in order to change the laws, so there was other people involved who saw things his way and thus, church and state were seperated more so to where it should be.
He removed all legal barriers, so that Canada stands unique in the world without any regulations at all. Mr. Morgentaler acted to the best of his conscience and understanding.
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Once again, one has to prove there is life within the fetus, besides the mother's own blood and energy being sent to it for development, in order for a fetus to be called alive.
To many pregnant women he was the savior. But he totally disregarded the life of the fetus, the body that was developing inside the womb.
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We are.... the question that remains is how are we all connected and at what point in our development are we connected. You believe it's at the moment of conception..... I believe it is when you take your first breath.
I won't look, because it would break me!! But yes, go ahead and do it... you are protected by the law!! Praxi, you are an individual but you are also a part of a much bigger whole, called humanity. The way humanity treats its unborn, its children, its handicapped, its elderly, and its prisoners defines it from barbaric to spiritually refined. In Canada right now the unborn has no protection, no right even to be born at least.
To me that is sad! Tragic for all of us, because we are all connected.
To me that is sad! Tragic for all of us, because we are all connected.
And since there are various beliefs we all hold and we all determine what life is for ourselves, so too should those decisions be left up to the individual, rather then one set rule.
What your religion tells you of abortions may contradict another religious belief, and so on and so forth...... and regardless if all religions met eye to eye on abortions as being something immoral, religions do not rule whole, and not everybody follows religions..... nor should everybody be forced to follow any or all religions in the first place, so therefore it still remains up to the individual.
If abortions are a sin, the leave that sin to those people who the decision affects.... if they make the wrong decision, then God will deal with them in the end and other humans should just stay out of it.
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Sorry to be cold about it, but them's the breaks. Just because they look human or could have been human, doesn't make them alive.
And so we all, as a community, stand mutely and meekly by while millions of babies get ripped apart by the powerful suction pumps, little fingers and toes and other bits and pieces, all gets flushed down the sewer pipes.
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Fair enough.
And Praxi says to Loon, 'don't cry... it was just a lump of meat!' That's where we differ!
Quote:
That sounds about right.... think of it this way:
No, no control... that's not what I wanted anyway, because then I would be absorbed in your karma. But I would like to discuss the matter with you before you go ahead with the abortion. I would like you to try and understand my point of view.Alright, now we come to the crux of the matter! That lump is not human until it comes into the light and starts breathing? Although it had a pumping heart, and looked exactly like a miniature human... no. it's not human, says Praxi, it first has to take a deep breath and then, only then it is a human being!! What a miracle!! We now call it a baby! Do you suppose that at this first breath the spirit/soul entered the little body? while prior to that it was just a lump attached to the mother and could at any time be destroyed without impact on the spirit/soul?
Do you suppose that at this first breath the spirit/soul entered the little body? while prior to that it was just a lump attached to the mother and could at any time be destroyed without impact on the spirit/soul?
During pregnancy, go into the womb and surgically cut the umbilical cord and see how long that little fetus' heart will live before it dies without any blood or energy coming from the mother.
Quote:
To debate.
Why ask then?
Council Member
Posts: 2,222
Location: in town
Location: in town
July 8th, 2008, 07:30 PM
I still want to come back to your last answer, Praxi. I was emotionally drained for a couple of days. It is good to let the emotional flare die down a bit. But just now I found a short statement at the side of CTV news. Apparently another Order of Canada medal was returned.
Group returns Order of Canada
An Ontario Catholic organization has returned the Order of Canada medal given to its founder to protest awarding abortionist Dr. Henry Morgentaler with the same distinction.
I still want to come back to your last answer, Praxi. I was emotionally drained for a couple of days. It is good to let the emotional flare die down a bit. But just now I found a short statement at the side of CTV news. Apparently another Order of Canada medal was returned.
Group returns Order of Canada
An Ontario Catholic organization has returned the Order of Canada medal given to its founder to protest awarding abortionist Dr. Henry Morgentaler with the same distinction.
Imperturbability Found
Posts: 1,540
Location: Underground Parking Level Four
Location: Underground Parking Level Four
July 8th, 2008, 10:46 PM
Quoting dancing-loon
When you find out how well respected he was as a life saver and an option to women, you will hopefully understand. But I doubt it L.R.!
I still want to come back to your last answer, Praxi. I was emotionally drained for a couple of days. It is good to let the emotional flare die down a bit. But just now I found a short statement at the side of CTV news. Apparently another Order of Canada medal was returned.
Group returns Order of Canada
An Ontario Catholic organization has returned the Order of Canada medal given to its founder to protest awarding abortionist Dr. Henry Morgentaler with the same distinction.
Group returns Order of Canada
An Ontario Catholic organization has returned the Order of Canada medal given to its founder to protest awarding abortionist Dr. Henry Morgentaler with the same distinction.
Member
Posts: 53
Location: Alberta
Location: Alberta
July 8th, 2008, 11:14 PM
I do not understand the concept that a fetus is not a living human being - " a lump of flesh" - this is crap and only said by people who delude themselves that a fetus suddenly and miraculously becomes a person when they exit the mother.
It is a legal nicety and not what the Supreme court said and I quote "The value to be placed on the foetus as potential life is directly related to the stage of its development during gestation. The undeveloped foetus starts out as a newly fertilized ovum; the fully developed foetus emerges ultimately as an infant. A developmental progression takes place between these two extremes and it has a direct bearing on the value of the foetus as potential life. Accordingly, the foetus should be viewed in differential and developmental terms. This view of the foetus supports a permissive approach to abortion in the early stages where the woman's autonomy would be absolute and a restrictive approach in the later stages where the states's interest in protecting the foetus would justify its prescribing conditions. The precise point in the development of the foetus at which the state's interest in its protection becomes 'compelling' should be left to the informed judgment of the legislature which is in a position to receive submissions on the subject from all the relevant disciplines."
Look at enough sonars like I do and you know exactly what they look like - you watch them breath, suck, swallow and pee and their heart beat before they are born and you know that at 18 weeks they are anatomically well enough developed enough to diagnose congenital abnormalities.
The problem arises when the best interests of the mother/family conflicts with the best interests of the unborn child and the decision has to be made as to whose life has more value. But do not delude yourself that it is not killing a living human being.
I would never want to deprive a woman of the choice of abortion on demand, I am sad that these women do not have better alternatives (other than abortion). As for Morgenthaler - it would have been better if somebody less divisive had been chosen.
I do not understand the concept that a fetus is not a living human being - " a lump of flesh" - this is crap and only said by people who delude themselves that a fetus suddenly and miraculously becomes a person when they exit the mother.
It is a legal nicety and not what the Supreme court said and I quote "The value to be placed on the foetus as potential life is directly related to the stage of its development during gestation. The undeveloped foetus starts out as a newly fertilized ovum; the fully developed foetus emerges ultimately as an infant. A developmental progression takes place between these two extremes and it has a direct bearing on the value of the foetus as potential life. Accordingly, the foetus should be viewed in differential and developmental terms. This view of the foetus supports a permissive approach to abortion in the early stages where the woman's autonomy would be absolute and a restrictive approach in the later stages where the states's interest in protecting the foetus would justify its prescribing conditions. The precise point in the development of the foetus at which the state's interest in its protection becomes 'compelling' should be left to the informed judgment of the legislature which is in a position to receive submissions on the subject from all the relevant disciplines."
Look at enough sonars like I do and you know exactly what they look like - you watch them breath, suck, swallow and pee and their heart beat before they are born and you know that at 18 weeks they are anatomically well enough developed enough to diagnose congenital abnormalities.
The problem arises when the best interests of the mother/family conflicts with the best interests of the unborn child and the decision has to be made as to whose life has more value. But do not delude yourself that it is not killing a living human being.
I would never want to deprive a woman of the choice of abortion on demand, I am sad that these women do not have better alternatives (other than abortion). As for Morgenthaler - it would have been better if somebody less divisive had been chosen.
Council Member
Posts: 2,222
Location: in town
Location: in town
July 8th, 2008, 11:27 PM
You men are so very different than women! And of course, who gets a woman pregnant? The likes of you!!
It's all men who attack me for my stand against abortion!
Mr. Morgentaler can be the sweetest old man there is, but I do not admire him for what he stands for. I may be crazy... so be it!
P.S.
I'm not a teenager anymore, although I've been advised to grow up, my understanding of life and death is different from that of the young and breastless!!
Quoting scratch
Ach, scratch, what do you know?? How often have you been pregnant and given birth or aborted, J.W.
When you find out how well respected he was as a life saver and an option to women, you will hopefully understand. But I doubt it L.R.!
You men are so very different than women! And of course, who gets a woman pregnant? The likes of you!!
It's all men who attack me for my stand against abortion!
Mr. Morgentaler can be the sweetest old man there is, but I do not admire him for what he stands for. I may be crazy... so be it!
P.S.
I'm not a teenager anymore, although I've been advised to grow up, my understanding of life and death is different from that of the young and breastless!!
