Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcare

Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcare

paullind10

#1Jul 4th, 2007

Moore often compares the Canadian universal healthcare system to the Americans system. Usually this is aimed to draw attention to the 40 million uninsured Americans but critics reply Canada has unacceptably long waiting lists for major treatments as reason not to adopt that system.

Canadian's like to think our system is the best in the world even though the World Health Organization puts us around the 30th spot. Hopefully this added public scrutiny will get Canadian's to wake up to the realty of a failing healthcare system.

Not doing anything about it just doesn’t cut it anymore, should we wait till the baby boomers hit the system en masse before trying to change things? The Senate and 5 provinces have already reported unsustainable rates of healthcare cost increases. That leaves it to a parallel private and public system as a solution.

Let’s be a little more proactive Canada, stop denying the sick access to healthcare for your own ideology.
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Last edited by paullind10; Jul 4th, 2007 at 09:37 AM..Reason: forgot signature

karrie

Re: Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcare

Jul 4th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by paullind10

Not doing anything about it just doesn’t cut it anymore, should we wait till the baby boomers hit the system en masse before trying to change things? The Senate and 5 provinces have already reported unsustainable rates of healthcare cost increases. That leaves it to a parallel private and public system as a solution.

Let’s be a little more proactive Canada, stop denying the sick access to healthcare for your own ideology.

that's odd. I was under the impression that the Canadian health care system was attempting to recruit more specialists, invest more money into new infrastructure, and reduce wait times. It may not be happening instantaneously, or perhaps someone's not going about things the right way, but I've never once heard a single person in the health care industry say that they'll leave things as they are.

Zzarchov

Re: Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcare

Jul 4th, 2007

So what exactly is a private parallel system going to do that a public can't?

If there is enough facilities and doctors to meet all our needs (As is implied with private in parallel) then why would we have any crisis at all?

There is a limited amount of manpower and resources. To create a parallel system, you would have to take resources the taxpayer paid for, and give them to a private organization (which is then denied to the people who paid for it).

Private being run in parallel is bunk. If there was the resources available it would be in use already in the public sector.

Labelling someone "private" and charging money for it doesn't make doctors appear out of thin air.

If you have a Private system it is because you are saying that your nation does not have the collective wealth to give everyone health care, so instead you shall leave it only to those who can afford it (and in that way at least SOMEONE gets treated).

And Im not saying thats always wrong. In many countries that is the choice, give everyone inneffective care, or those who can afford it enough care to help.

Last edited by Zzarchov; Jul 4th, 2007 at 10:50 AM..

#juan

Re: Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcare

Jul 4th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by karrie

that's odd. I was under the impression that the Canadian health care system was attempting to recruit more specialists, invest more money into new infrastructure, and reduce wait times. It may not be happening instantaneously, or perhaps someone's not going about things the right way, but I've never once heard a single person in the health care industry say that they'll leave things as they are.

In the last year and a bit, two friends and I all had heart surgery. None of us had to wait longer than a few days. I understand that knee and hip replacement surgery is a different matter and there are long waits for this kind of surgery. I did notice that the nurses were short staffed and over-worked and I understand that this is being fixed. I read somewhere that they were trying to get more doctors into the areas where we are short. It sounds like there are some problems but it doesn't sound like the system is beyond repair. If only we didn't have Mulroney's debt.........

IdRatherBeSkiing

Re: Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcare

Jul 4th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by #juan

In the last year and a bit, two friends and I all had heart surgery. None of us had to wait longer than a few days. I understand that knee and hip replacement surgery is a different matter and there are long waits for this kind of surgery. I did notice that the nurses were short staffed and over-worked and I understand that this is being fixed. I read somewhere that they were trying to get more doctors into the areas where we are short. It sounds like there are some problems but it doesn't sound like the system is beyond repair. If only we didn't have Mulroney's debt.........

Or Trudeau's debt before.

I read an article a while back that attributed the current doctor shortage in Ontario to changes made to University funding (of medical schools) by Peterson. He thought there was a doctor surplus and reduced the number of students in medical schools. Rae continued the cutbacks as did Harris. Only in the late Harris years and the McSquinty years did the number of med students increase. In effect, short sighted budget numbers from previous numbers have now contributed to this shortage. It will take 10 years to see any change based upon current enrollments.

#juan

Re: Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcare

Jul 4th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by IdRatherBeSkiing

Or Trudeau's debt before.

I read an article a while back that attributed the current doctor shortage in Ontario to changes made to University funding (of medical schools) by Peterson. He thought there was a doctor surplus and reduced the number of students in medical schools. Rae continued the cutbacks as did Harris. Only in the late Harris years and the McSquinty years did the number of med students increase. In effect, short sighted budget numbers from previous numbers have now contributed to this shortage. It will take 10 years to see any change based upon current enrollments.

Without putting too fine a point on it, Trudeau's debt was about a hundred billion, while lyin' Brian's was four times that.

Another part of the problem is that fully ten percent of the doctors we train in Canada end up in the states.

Niflmir

Re: Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcare

Jul 4th, 2007

Hmmm, would you prefer a private system where you can't afford the surgery that you could get immediately or a public system where you just have to wait your turn?

The private health industries in Canada have to pay for the time on the public infrastructure. In a way we are double dipping on things like MRI. The private clinics also have to wait for the times when the doctors are unavailable to utilize the infrastructure. I believe the number of doctor-hours is the bottle neck at the moment. The infrastructure is not so overloaded as to have down time, so we rent it out to private clinics.

IdRatherBeSkiing

Re: Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcare

Jul 4th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by #juan

Another part of the problem is that fully ten percent of the doctors we train in Canada end up in the states.

That could be corrected by making financing/subsidies of med schools here conditional on a 10 year term in Canada. Failing to complete the 10 years would force repayment of the financing.

Walter

Re: Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcare

Jul 4th, 2007

My brother is an MD trained in Canada. He went to the states after practising in Canada for a few years. He cited too much bureaucracy and too little compensation as two of his main reasons for leaving Canada. Anything run by a government will never be efficient.

tracy

#10

Re: Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcare

Jul 4th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by IdRatherBeSkiing

That could be corrected by making financing/subsidies of med schools here conditional on a 10 year term in Canada. Failing to complete the 10 years would force repayment of the financing.

Speaking as a health care worker who left Canada, that sounds like a bad idea to me. First off, I think it's a bit offensive that health care workers are somehow singled out. Business or engineering majors are free to go wherever they want, but we aren't without a huge financial penalty? You either offer a decent post secondary education system to everyone or you shouldn't offer it to anyone.

Plus, you have no real way of forcing the repayment. If I don't pay my debts in Canada, it doesn't affect anything for me down here. It wouldn't even hurt my credit score. The easiest way to make health care workers stay in the country is to provide them with a decent work environment. Even a debt isn't enough to make someone stay in a bad job. A friend of mine just broke her contract even though it meant a 15K penalty. I went about 20K into debt by moving down here thanks to moving expenses, licensing and testing fees, immigration issues, etc. It was worth every penny though. I wouldn't have traded it to go back to Vancouver and be debt free but unhappy in my job.

tracy

#11

Re: Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcare

Jul 4th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by Walter

My brother is an MD trained in Canada. He went to the states after practising in Canada for a few years. He cited too much bureaucracy and too little compensation as two of his main reasons for leaving Canada. Anything run by a government will never be efficient.

Actually, it's been well documented that the most efficient health insurance systems in the US are the government run ones (Medicaid, Medical, etc).

talloola

#12

Re: Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcare

Jul 4th, 2007

[quote=paullind10;849072]Moore often compares the Canadian universal healthcare system to the Americans system. Usually this is aimed to draw attention to the 40 million uninsured Americans but critics reply Canada has unacceptably long waiting lists for major treatments as reason not to adopt that system.

That problem is improving, and we also have a mix of private and public healthcare now,
which seems to take 'a little' of the pressure off the waiting lines.

Curiosity

#13

Re: Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcare

Jul 4th, 2007

What the Yahoo does Michael Moore know about the Canadian Health Care System - to give him license to critique it in the first place?

He isn't the world's best investigative "journalist" - more like a storyteller of fiction.

I would rather see valid reporting than something from Moore's angle.

flapperpie

#14

Re: Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcare

Jul 4th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by Curiosity

What the Yahoo does Michael Moore know about the Canadian Health Care System - to give him license to critique it in the first place?

He isn't the world's best investigative "journalist" - more like a storyteller of fiction.

I would rather see valid reporting than something from Moore's angle.

Moore is the first to admit that his uses his medium to entertain; factual accuracy is delegated to the back of the upper balcony, at best.

IdRatherBeSkiing

#15

Re: Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcare

Jul 4th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by flapperpie

Moore is the first to admit that his uses his medium to entertain; factual accuracy is delegated to the back of the upper balcony, at best.

More like the parking lot behind the theatre.

Curiosity

#16

Re: Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcare

Jul 4th, 2007

Flapperpie

But he directs his propaganda to the weakest membership of society ...

His first book - and Automobile Industry and its Unions...

The Harris and Klebold high school shooting horror ... into fiction while placing blame on K-Mart.....

Now the general public on Canadian Medical Care.......

The people who believe him to be credible often haven't the time nor the wherewithall to do their own research unless something of worth might appear on television or in the newspaper..... he has hordes of people believing the crap he delivers.......

He is practicing a form of journalistic mobism at worst journalistic terrorism.

Zzarchov

#17

Re: Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcare

Jul 4th, 2007

which sits as a high point in world journalism these days.

"This just in! Terrorists will kill you unless you buy duct tape! GO NOW!"

talloola

#18

Re: Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcare

Jul 4th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by Curiosity

Flapperpie

But he directs his propaganda to the weakest membership of society ...

His first book - and Automobile Industry and its Unions...

The Harris and Klebold high school shooting horror ... into fiction while placing blame on K-Mart.....

Now the general public on Canadian Medical Care.......

The people who believe him to be credible often haven't the time nor the wherewithall to do their own research unless something of worth might appear on television or in the newspaper..... he has hordes of people believing the crap he delivers.......

He is practicing a form of journalistic mobism at worst journalistic terrorism.

Yeah, just like the government does.

Fingertrouble

#19

Re: Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcare

Jul 4th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by Curiosity

What the Yahoo does Michael Moore know about the Canadian Health Care System - to give him license to critique it in the first place?

He isn't the world's best investigative "journalist" - more like a storyteller of fiction.

I would rather see valid reporting than something from Moore's angle.

You may be right, but I am willing to bet that when he made "Sicko" he probably did an awful lot of research into the different types of healthcare systems (even if he did put his trademark "spin" on the information)....probably more than most of us have ever done. The US is a free country , as is Canada abnd therefore anyone is entitled to an opinion...we don't have to agree with it.

IdRatherBeSkiing

#20

Re: Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcare

Jul 4th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by Fingertrouble

You may be right, but I am willing to bet that when he made "Sicko" he probably did an awful lot of research into the different types of healthcare systems (even if he did put his trademark "spin" on the information)....probably more than most of us have ever done. The US is a free country , as is Canada abnd therefore anyone is entitled to an opinion...we don't have to agree with it.

He starts with the point he wants to make, does whatever research is required to get the footage necessary to edit into something that supports his point. If we had access to his raw research, the point may be valid. Otherwise, its just opinion.

Curiosity

#21

Re: Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcare

Jul 4th, 2007

Finger - Moore does research as long as he is making footage with his ever attendant camera on..

IT's part of his schtick. The 'making' of his works are the advertising. Once the product is ready for the market even the regular day to day news people tear into his faulty logic and invalidated assumptions.... for instance:

In the Kleibold and Harris tragedy - he focused on the sale of guns by K-Mart. The two boys were surrounded by guns within their family units - as hunting is/was part of the family lifestyle. The boys were hunched over their computers much of their spare time dreaming up more dungeons and dragons and goth fantasies.... I doubt if either of them frequented K-Mart - especially for weaponry - they were from wealthy families and had access to any number of firearms.

The two boys have become textbook cases of familial indifference, where parental roles are particularly cold and non-existent to the point where the youth have to perform some monumental feat to get someone to find them 'credible' in their sickness of a modern day kind of 'abandonment' by parents who are too busy for their children.

The people who will follow unquestioningly these little Michael Moore fantasy trips believe because he is on a camera - which to some gives omnipotence and truth to every word from their mouth - which we know not to be the case - at least those discerning enough to question much of what we are told, by the media and in Moore's case - a personality - he is nothing more - not a truthteller - a personality - a schtickman - and he makes excellent money at his game... and it is a game....

...with just enough appearance of concerned reporting to suck people in. Too bad he chose that route but money does sing those wonderful notes...

tracy

#22

Re: Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcare

Jul 4th, 2007

Even Fox News and CNN have given it positive reviews. I haven't heard any of them attack the facts he's put in the movie. CNN even researched into it and didn't find factual problems.

IdRatherBeSkiing

#23

Re: Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcare

Jul 4th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by tracy

Even Fox News and CNN have given it positive reviews. I haven't heard any of them attack the facts he's put in the movie. CNN even researched into it and didn't find factual problems.

Perhaps the Simpson's movie will also get a positive review. Doesn't make it a documentary.

And I am sure CNN did their due diligence for the 6 hours they assiged the reporter to the story.

Curiosity

#24

Re: Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcare

Jul 4th, 2007

IdRather

LOL - well if the nooz folk said so.... it must be troo....

Thing about Moore I detest is he runs around the world blabbing about how terrible his nation is and how the corrupt government and corporations are skinning the American public...

He never covers the huge sums of money the American taxpayers put out annually in world donations - in health care, supplies, education, etc. and shhhhhhhhhhhh military assistance......shhhhhhhhh

If we didn't share so much with the rest of the world everyone of the 300 million members of the nation would have cradle to grave free medical care.

That would be just one example - in keeping with the topic of Moore's latest angry tantrum. He's just against his nation - and he runs around the world making it known. What a patriot!!

Ambush journalism - made up intervewees and man on the street 'guests' ... pretend corporate executives on camera.... whatta guy... a second coming....

And I thank god every day he is allowed to do so ... that's freedom.

flapperpie

#25

Re: Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcare

Jul 4th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by Curiosity

Flapperpie

But he directs his propaganda to the weakest membership of society ...

His first book - and Automobile Industry and its Unions...

The Harris and Klebold high school shooting horror ... into fiction while placing blame on K-Mart.....

Now the general public on Canadian Medical Care.......

The people who believe him to be credible often haven't the time nor the wherewithall to do their own research unless something of worth might appear on television or in the newspaper..... he has hordes of people believing the crap he delivers.......

He is practicing a form of journalistic mobism at worst journalistic terrorism.

Well, what are the "weakest members of society" going to do, Curiosity? Cancel the medical insurance that they don't have?

Curiosity

#26

Re: Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcare

Jul 5th, 2007

Flapperpie

Actually the 'weakest members' do have coverage....the working poor who have jobs with no medical care - who are expected to pay just as the professionals who have jobs are the people hardest hit...

The productive families with four children for example whose parents are still on the climb up to their dreams, paying off student loans, taking two parent jobs to make ends meet or more often single mothers with far too many children and no support from absentee or unknown fathers - trying to find suitable housing, in good neighborhoods, often requiring cars to transport themselves to work and their kids to school, or daycare.... those are the ones who are caught up short.

Public transportation in most except a few large cities is pretty much non-existent and cars are the preferred mode of getting to work and school and all the other life necessities.

At the other end the seniors are pretty well cared for .... and I guess many of them are the 'weakest members' too.

The drain is the influx of undocumented people who contribute nothing to medical insurance but utilize the system to the max - often hurt on the job, poor living conditions, many children, and the list goes on. These people also require health care and they are receiving it - another 'weakest member of society'.... and they have no insurance.

Nobody is refused medical assistance - the care is there - the insurance or financial ability is not.

So those who pay are also supporting others who need care whether long term or occasional.

The US has the money - but it goes to other nations - when it should be taking care of its own first!

Why? I have no idea. Government sees only what it wishes to acknowledge in the media.

#juan

#27

Re: Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcare

Jul 5th, 2007

--

I realize this is an older study but I think the info is still mostly valid.

Zzarchov

#28

Re: Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcare

Jul 5th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by IdRatherBeSkiing

He starts with the point he wants to make, does whatever research is required to get the footage necessary to edit into something that supports his point. If we had access to his raw research, the point may be valid. Otherwise, its just opinion.

Well if its good enough to go to war that way, its good enough to spend $10 at a theatre laughing for a night. You gotta admit, alot of the scenes are funny just in absurdity (in a "talking to american's" kinda way) even if you know they are the worst outtakes all put togethor out of context. It is still funny.

Unforgiven

#29

Re: Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcare

Jul 5th, 2007

But that's like saying since I give you ten bucks, I have the right to punch you in the mouth.

There are plenty of great thing the US does and while I agree that they don't get a lot of play most of the time, it's the American media that came up with the whole what bleeds leads philosophy so in the end it's still the same butt that needs a kick.

I think a big part of the problem and not just with the US but Canada as well is that we tend to grouse so much about the problem, whose fault it is and who we can make an example out of for it, that we turn the majority of people off the whole thing altogether. Then those who are left to decide what is to be are so influenced by lobby groups and corporate power brokers that what's best for the people is not what's chosen in the end.

Quote: Originally Posted by Curiosity

IdRather

LOL - well if the nooz folk said so.... it must be troo....

Thing about Moore I detest is he runs around the world blabbing about how terrible his nation is and how the corrupt government and corporations are skinning the American public...

He never covers the huge sums of money the American taxpayers put out annually in world donations - in health care, supplies, education, etc. and shhhhhhhhhhhh military assistance......shhhhhhhhh

If we didn't share so much with the rest of the world everyone of the 300 million members of the nation would have cradle to grave free medical care.

That would be just one example - in keeping with the topic of Moore's latest angry tantrum. He's just against his nation - and he runs around the world making it known. What a patriot!!

Ambush journalism - made up intervewees and man on the street 'guests' ... pretend corporate executives on camera.... whatta guy... a second coming....

And I thank god every day he is allowed to do so ... that's freedom.

Curiosity

#30

Re: Michael Moore's 'Sicko' Scrutinizes Canada's Healthcare

Jul 5th, 2007

Quote: Originally Posted by Zzarchov

Well if its good enough to go to war that way, its good enough to spend $10 at a theatre laughing for a night. You gotta admit, alot of the scenes are funny just in absurdity (in a "talking to american's" kinda way) even if you know they are the worst outtakes all put togethor out of context. It is still funny.

LOL Zzarchov - well if you are going to 'rationalize' those two issues into an excuse - I guess it is funny in its way - personally I'd rather see the U.S. taking care of its own rather than sending its young to parts of the world none of us care about - to die or be maimed for life..... how this has to do with Michael Moore and his funny topic of tragedy within the U.S. nation - it's a bit of a stretch but I'll take humor any time - if it cuts through the pain of reality.

Edit: Thank you Unforgiven - I just read your post which came before mine... well said.

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