The gold dinar and the silver dirham.


White_Unifier
#31
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

Holy crap are you ever naive. Travel sometime maybe you'll learn that gold is and always will be currency. Just because it's not used the way notes are used in Canada or the US doesn't mean the rest of the world uses notes.

India is a perfect example of where you can lop a piece off a maple and buy a meal. It's gold. Gold is currency.

Do you have a link to that?

I've visited a few countries and never seen gold used in a shop the way you describe. I've never been in India either granted, but this is the first I read of that.

If you just slice a piece of gold off at a restaurant, how do you ascertain its purity and weight? I'm sure owner doesn't want to need to weigh each piece and have each piece inspected for purity. That's where a mint comes in.

Quote: Originally Posted by selfsameView Post

There is an obvious difference between the gold and the currency here:

When you give gold, the goldsmith will buy it from you, but when he sells it to you, he sells it as a jewellery work, so when you give him a signet ring for example he will buy it from you as gold, but when he sells the ring for you, he sells it at a higher price as a worked out piece of jewellary gold.

But a dinar or dirham is produced more simply and so more cheaply and more solidly for practical exchange along with pertinent information such as weight, purity, etc. on its surface for easy communication of its value to a trader.
 
petros
#32
Households hold $950bn gold in India - TOI Mobile | The Times of India Mobile Site (external - login to view)


The reason a maple is popular is people trust the Canadian mint.

How long before the riyal crashes again?
 
gerryh
#33
Quote: Originally Posted by White_UnifierView Post

Or we could do what they do:

1. Conform the Gold Mapleleaf to the standards of the dinar and the Silver Mapleleaf to the dirham. That way, they'd be interchangeable on a 1:1 basis.

Then organise a network of banks and shops that will accept the Gold and Silver Mapkeleafs (and by extension, dinars and dirham on a 1:1 basis gold for gold, silver for silver.

There you'd have to beginnings of a practical gold and silver currency.

According to the site I linked to above, not one shop in Canada accepts dinars and dirhams. One shop in the US accepts them. Over 80 in the UK and even more in Malaysia abd Indonesia and elsewhere.

Si at least in North America, if the Canadian mint and businesses play their cards right, we might be able to get Gold and Silver Mapkeleafs traded in some shops before the d and d here.

You said Gold and Silver Mapkeleafs are traded in normal daily trade. Is there a network of shops that accept them that you can tell me about?

When I was reading the links above, it turns out that the dinar netwirk, though perhaps started by Muslims, is not strictly a Muslim network, only Muslim inspired. Apparently it does welcome non-Muslims too.




First, why should WE conform to them? Why not they conform to us?


Second, How will you determine how much 1 loaf of bread is worth using this new currency? How would I get paid? Would my employer have to ensure he has enough gold and silver to make pay roll each week?

To begin with, we will need some kind of comparison to existing money as to what this new currency is worth so that we, as employees and consumers, will know we aren't being screwed by the change over.

Quote: Originally Posted by White_UnifierView Post


But a dinar or dirham is produced more simply and so more cheaply and more solidly for practical exchange along with pertinent information such as weight, purity, etc. on its surface for easy communication of its value to a trader.



and the maple isn't?
 
White_Unifier
#34
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

Households hold $950bn gold in India - TOI Mobile | The Times of India Mobile Site (external - login to view)


The reason a maple is popular is people trust the Canadian mint.

How long before the riyal crashes again?

If you read the article, they hord their gold. Not very practical as a medium of currency if you ask me. Plus most of it is probably in the form of jewellery.

Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

First, why should WE conform to them? Why not they conform to us?


Second, How will you determine how much 1 loaf of bread is worth using this new currency? How would I get paid? Would my employer have to ensure he has enough gold and silver to make pay roll each week?

To begin with, we will need some kind of comparison to existing money as to what this new currency is worth so that we, as employees and consumers, will know we aren't being screwed by the change over.





and the maple isn't?

As a medium of currency, the dinar and dirham are already established with with an international network of businesses already trading in them. Can we day the same for the Mapleleaf?

In principle, the Mapleleaf is already interchangeable since it's still gold. But businesses would prefer 1:1 equivalency and not something like one Mapleleaf is equal to 1/23456789 dinar for example since that just wastes a merchant's time calculating such equivalencies.

Again, one is already well established as a trading currency, the other hasn't really made beyond an investment tool.

But yes, the Mapleleaf is simple, solid, and clear in printing its weight, purity, etc. on its surface just as is the dinar.

One is not better than the other per se. Had the Gold Mapleleaf already been established as a practical international trading currency and the dinar was a mere investment coin, then it would make more sense to conform the dinar's weight etc. to the Mapleleaf's standard.

Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

Households hold $950bn gold in India - TOI Mobile | The Times of India Mobile Site (external - login to view)


The reason a maple is popular is people trust the Canadian mint.

How long before the riyal crashes again?

Yes, people do trust the Canadian mint at least as much as the World Islamic Mint and maybe more si, but the Mapleleaf us still used exclusively as an investment coin. Why not exploit the Canadian Mint's advantage when it comes to its trustworthiness and combine that with the popularity of the weight measurements for the dinar and dirham, then you could have a Cabadian-made currency if intrinsic value that could trade 1:1 in any business worldwide that presently trades in dinars and dirhams.
 
gerryh
#35
Quote: Originally Posted by White_UnifierView Post

If you read the article, they hord their gold. Not very practical as a medium of currency if you ask me. Plus most of it is probably in the form of jewellery.



As a medium of currency, the dinar and dirham are already established with with an international network of businesses already trading in them. Can we day the same for the Mapleleaf?

In principle, the Mapleleaf is already interchangeable since it's still gold. But businesses would prefer 1:1 equivalency and not something like one Mapleleaf is equal to 1/23456789 dinar for example since that just wastes a merchant's time calculating such equivalencies.

Again, one is already well established as a trading currency, the other hasn't really made beyond an investment tool.

But yes, the Mapleleaf is simple, solid, and clear in printing its weight, purity, etc. on its surface just as is the dinar.

One is not better than the other per se. Had the Gold Mapleleaf already been established as a practical international trading currency and the dinar was a mere investment coin, then it would make more sense to conform the dinar's weight etc. to the Mapleleaf's standard.



Yes, people do trust the Canadian mint at least as much as the World Islamic Mint and maybe more si, but the Mapleleaf us still used exclusively as an investment coin. Why not exploit the Canadian Mint's advantage when it comes to its trustworthiness and combine that with the popularity of the weight measurements for the dinar and dirham, then you could have a Cabadian-made currency if intrinsic value that could trade 1:1 in any business worldwide that presently trades in dinars and dirhams.




Didn't answer all my questions, only the simplest.
 
White_Unifier
#36
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_gold_dinar (external - login to view)

"Per the historical law stated above, one dinar is 4.44 grams of pure gold, while one dirham is 3.11 grams of pure silver. A smaller denomination, daniq, weighs one sixth as much. The value of each coin is according to their weight and the market value of the two metals. The coins may be minted at fraction or multiples of their weights and valued accordingly."

This means one dinar is always worth 4.44 grams if pure gold. A dirham is always worth 3.11 grams if pure silver.

From that, we can easily calculate the value of a loaf if bread.

Welcome to Dinarshops Network - Frequently Asked Questions (external - login to view)

"Are there denominations of Dinar and Dirham?
Yes, the Dinar and Dirham coins come in the following denominations:
Dinar
1 Dinar
2 Dinars
5 Dinars
8 Dinars

1 Dirham
2 Dirhams
5 Dirhams
10 Dirhams
20 Dirhams"

Based on the standard weight of one dinar and of one dirham, we can easily know the standard weight of each of the coins above.

From that we can figure out a fair price for a loaf of bread or for a salary to pay workers. Plus no need to adjust wages to inflation over the long term since gold fluctuates little over the long term even if it might fluctuate in the short term.

Also, I would not support imposing the dinar and dirhams on Canada. Like everything else, we need an adjustment period. Instead, Canadian law could leave it to individual businesses to decide whether to accept dinars and dirhams, Canadian currency, or both, and then let the market take it from there.
 
gerryh
#37
Quote: Originally Posted by White_UnifierView Post

the market value of the two metals.



based on what currency?
 
White_Unifier
#38
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

based on what currency?

Pick your currency man. If the dinar is convertible into US dollars, and US dollars are convertible into Canadian dollars, then can we not conclude that dinars are convertible into Canadian dollars?
 
gerryh
#39
Quote: Originally Posted by White_UnifierView Post

Pick your currency man. If the dinar is convertible into US dollars, and US dollars are convertible into Canadian dollars, then can we not conclude that dinars are convertible into Canadian dollars?



Then it is just another currency which achieves it's value from another. What is the benefit?

Plus, it's value fluctuates.
Last edited by gerryh; 1 week ago at 05:41 PM..
 
petros
#40
Quote:

As a medium of currency, the dinar and dirham are already established with with an international network of businesses already trading in them. Can we day the same for the Mapleleaf?

How many times do you have to hear yes?
 
White_Unifier
#41
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

Then it is just another currency which achieves it's value from another. What is the benefit?

https://www.e-dinar.com/cgi/?page=dinardirham&a=_4 (external - login to view)

It doesn't suffer inflation because it contains its value inside itself. The same applies to the Gold and Silver Maples. You can't say the same for the Canadian dollar.
 
petros
#42
Quote:

"Per the historical law stated above, one dinar is 4.44 grams of pure gold, while one dirham is 3.11 grams of pure silver. A smaller denomination, daniq, weighs one sixth as much. The value of each coin is according to their weight and the market value of the two metals. The coins may be minted at fraction or multiples of their weights and valued accordingly."

Exactly like Maples which are extremely popular amongst traders of precious metals or goods and services.
 
White_Unifier
#43
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

How many times do you have to hear yes?

Where? Show me a network of common businesses that accept the Mapleleafs.
 
gerryh
#44
Quote: Originally Posted by White_UnifierView Post

https://www.e-dinar.com/cgi/?page=dinardirham&a=_4 (external - login to view)

It doesn't suffer inflation because it contains its value inside itself. The same applies to the Gold and Silver Maples. You can't say the same for the Canadian dollar.


If what it is worth, is based on , let's say, the u.s. dollar, then it changes in value based on the value of the u.s. dollar.
 
petros
#45
Quote: Originally Posted by White_UnifierView Post

https://www.e-dinar.com/cgi/?page=dinardirham&a=_4 (external - login to view)

It doesn't suffer inflation because it contains its value inside itself. The same applies to the Gold and Silver Maples. You can't say the same for the Canadian dollar.

The dollar is backed by GDP, gold and silver by demand. Yes gold and silver do swing wildly just like the dollar.

Quote: Originally Posted by White_UnifierView Post

Where? Show me a network of common businesses that accept the Mapleleafs.

Was there something wrong with the Scotia bank link?
Pawn shops, asseyers, money mart, banks, dope dealers etc etc etc

I guess you need to learn about "spot" pricing.
 
White_Unifier
#46
www.dinarshops.com/index.cgi#resultsanchor (external - login to view)

Here's a Turkish restaurant in Japan that accepts dinars and dirhams. Show me a business in Canada that will accept fair paiment in Mapleleaf at the coin's intrinsic value. Few would want to waste their time calculating its value because there isn't a large enough network where it can be used.
 
petros
#47
A gingerbread $20 silver coin was already shown to youm
 
White_Unifier
#48
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

The dollar is backed by GDP, gold and silver by demand. Yes gold and silver do swing wildly just like the dollar.


Was there something wrong with the Scotia bank link?
Pawn shops, asseyers, money mart, banks, dope dealers etc etc etc

I guess you need to learn about "spot" pricing.

Gold and silver can swing wildly over the short term, but keep within a range over the long term. The dollar is in continuous inflation because the bank actively aims for constant inflation between 1 and 2 percent.

Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

A gingerbread $20 silver coin was already shown to youm

Okay, but as the dollar continues to inflate, that 20CAD coin will eventually be worth more than 20 CAD because it would have held its intrinsic value while the fiat currency inflated. At that point would would want to trade for more than 20.00 but the 20.00 printed on it would confuse the merchant.
 
petros
#49
They swing long term too.


Once again meet a Canadian $20 silver coin accepted anywhere in the world as $20 Canadian


 
White_Unifier
#50
With that, you don't want to pin a gold currency to a fiat one since no one would want to trade it at its face value.
 
petros
#51
Quote: Originally Posted by White_UnifierView Post

With that, you don't want to pin a gold currency to a fiat one since no one would want to trade it at its face value.

A full copper penny was worth 3.5,cents just 6 years ago.

When that happened Canada cashed in.
 
White_Unifier
#52
Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

They swing long term too.


Once again meet a Canadian $20 silver coin accepted anywhere in the world as $20 Canadian


Yes. But with inflation, its intrinsic value will eventually reach more than 20.00 CAD. At that point, who would want to trade it in at a 20.00 CAD value once it's worth more than that?

The dinar and dirham are not pinned to any other currency. They are not even pinned to one another. They are valued simply according to the Gold or silver inherent in them.

Quote: Originally Posted by petrosView Post

A full copper penny was worth 3.5,cents just 6 years ago.

When that happened Canada cashed in.

Makes sense. Now imagine it was not called a 1c coin but rather just a copper penny worth according to its intrinsic value.

That is the concept behind the dinar and dirham. They are worth what the metal in them is worth. They are not pinned to any other currency and so fluctuate along with gold and silver.
 
gerryh
#53
Quote: Originally Posted by White_UnifierView Post


That is the concept behind the dinar and dirham. They are worth what the metal in them is worth. They are not pinned to any other currency and so fluctuate along with gold and silver.



and if one wanted to buy something, one would need to, both the buyer and the seller, know exactly what the spot price was for gold and silver. Not practical at all.
 
petros
#54
Quote:

Yes. But with inflation, its intrinsic value will eventually reach more than 20.00 CAD. At that point, who would want to trade it in at a 20.00 CAD value once it's worth more than that?

The Canadian Govt would just like when they cashed in on the nickel and copper in change. The penny went from copper, to aluminum to steel and then ended.

Nickels, quarters and dimes were once semi precious nickel but their scrap or "spot" value out weighed face value and cha f-cking ching

BTW gold silver and copper coins were around longer before any Muzzie praised Allah
 
White_Unifier
#55
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

and if one wanted to buy something, one would need to, both the buyer and the seller, know exactly what the spot price was for gold and silver. Not practical at all.

A bunch of businesses around the world use it now. I've already shown the link.

The CAD fluctuates daily too, but that does not mean shops change their prices daily. You just choose mean price and leave it there. With yhe CAD though, you will eventually need to raise the mean price. With the dinar and dirham, since they will tend to deflate as much as inflate and hold their value over the long term, you could leave tge mean price as is for decades. Since the dibar abd dirham aren't legal (but not illegal either) in Canada, a business in Canada must legally accept legal tender, dinars and dirhams merely bring optional. So if a business chooaes to do business in both currencies, it would need to update the mean price in CAD regularly, but not in d and d.

Same with wages. A worker paid in d and d knows that while gold and silver fluctuate, they do do always within a range and so maintain their value over the long term. This means he could be happy with the same wage over many years. Not so the one paid in CAD.
 
gerryh
#56
Quote: Originally Posted by White_UnifierView Post

A bunch of businesses around the world use it now. I've already shown the link.

The CAD fluctuates daily too, but that does not mean shops change their prices daily. You just choose mean price and leave it there. With yhe CAD though, you will eventually need to raise the mean price. With the dinar and dirham, since they will tend to deflate as much as inflate and hold their value over the long term, you could leave tge mean price as is for decades. Since the dibar abd dirham aren't legal (but not illegal either) in Canada, a business in Canada must legally accept legal tender, dinars and dirhams merely bring optional. So if a business chooaes to do business in both currencies, it would need to update the mean price in CAD regularly, but not in d and d.

Same with wages. A worker paid in d and d knows that while gold and silver fluctuate, they do do always within a range and so maintain their value over the long term. This means he could be happy with the same wage over many years. Not so the one paid in CAD.


 
petros
#57
Quote: Originally Posted by White_UnifierView Post

A bunch of businesses around the world use it now. I've already shown the link.

The CAD fluctuates daily too, but that does not mean shops change their prices daily. You just choose mean price and leave it there. With yhe CAD though, you will eventually need to raise the mean price. With the dinar and dirham, since they will tend to deflate as much as inflate and hold their value over the long term, you could leave tge mean price as is for decades. Since the dibar abd dirham aren't legal (but not illegal either) in Canada, a business in Canada must legally accept legal tender, dinars and dirhams merely bring optional. So if a business chooaes to do business in both currencies, it would need to update the mean price in CAD regularly, but not in d and d.

Same with wages. A worker paid in d and d knows that while gold and silver fluctuate, they do do always within a range and so maintain their value over the long term. This means he could be happy with the same wage over many years. Not so the one paid in CAD.

Again as explained there is something called SPOT PRICE for gold and silver. look it up

Did you need tutors to get through high school?
 
White_Unifier
#58
Quote: Originally Posted by gerryhView Post

Because the US dollar is fiat, it always tends to inflate over the long term at least. Because gold has value in itself, it tends to maintain its value over the long run. Same with silver. So compared to US or even Canadian dollars, gold and silver will tend to forever rise in price over the long haul. But in reality, the Gold and Silver are not rising in price. They are just maintaining their value inflation-free +again, at least over the long term). It's the US dollar that's constantly dropping in value.
 
Curious Cdn
#59
India is a perfect example of where you can lop a piece off a maple and buy a meal. It's gold. Gold is currency.

Big deal. You can break off a piece of bouillon in Canada for a meal, too.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bouillon_cube (external - login to view)
 
gerryh
+1
#60
Quote: Originally Posted by White_UnifierView Post

Because the US dollar is fiat, it always tends to inflate over the long term at least. Because gold has value in itself, it tends to maintain its value over the long run. Same with silver. So compared to US or even Canadian dollars, gold and silver will tend to forever rise in price over the long haul. But in reality, the Gold and Silver are not rising in price. They are just maintaining their value inflation-free +again, at least over the long term). It's the US dollar that's constantly dropping in value.



But, you said we would base the value of the gold coins on u.s. dollars or Canadian dollars. Do you want me to quote where you said that?
 

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