Does morality even matter in secular education?

What are your thoughts on this action by the Surrey School District (and subsequent inaction on their part, and on the part of the BC Ministry of Education) with regards to potential implied drug endorsement in the name of 6-12 year olds learning music?

Read about it here: --

Regards.

Oh dear! Another religious zealot. I have been listening to Led Zeppelin for over 40 years and I have never done cocaine or heroin. They were and still are one of the most original and artistic bands to come out of the 20th century.

Christians do not have a monopoly on morality. Neither do they have monopolies on hypocrisy, fanaticism or fundamentalism, but they can make asses of themselves just like anybody else. You can believe what you want, but do not try to foist your brand of "morality" on the rst of the community. You are out numbered by those who do not share you brand of fanaticism. Pray for your own salvation but keep it out of the faces of the rest of us.

Well, that’s ten minutes of my life I’m never going to get back.

My Lord was out-numbered; yet in those moments He accomplished the greatest victory of love (with you and me in mind) that turned this world upside-down. You think like a man, because you are a man. You are of this world; He is not of this world.

Those 10 minutes might urge you to repent; otherwise, they will stand against you in your condemnation. There's more going on than "time." When will we get serious?

I read the first paragraph, and when I realized the fuss was about a Led Zeppelin poster, I stopped reading.

I mean, really. Give your head a shake.

60 years ago led zeppelin would be hauled off stage in a paddy wagon. they were "right" back then, just like we are "right" now, and the romans watching gladiators kill each other were "right." see, there is no absolute sense of right and wrong. you all drift around on sand and you're happy about it. it's shameful. 50 years from now, people might be appalled at our drug-rock culture.

When will we get serious?

Probably when people stop being so damn anal about the most trivial and stupid things.

It was a poster.... a poster for Led Zeppelin... they were one of the biggest rock bands of the 70's known all around the world, still played today and still have many many fans today.... Rock being Music.... the teacher who put the poster up in the school was a music teacher and the poster was put up in his music class.

The Poster's meaning in the class room, if it has any at all, is to show the students that if you work hard at music, practice as hard as you can, and believe in what you're doing, you can make music that is heard all around the world, by countless people and listened to for years to come.

Putting up a poster for Led Zep in a music class isn't any different then putting up a poster for Beethoven.

Does the poster show the band members doing drugs? Does the poster have anything on it relating to the use of drugs?

No.

All this twit is doing is taking what one band member said about starting the band and thinking that's what everybody in the band believes, what all their fans believe, and that all their fans must be drugged up junkies..... thus because of this, the teacher must also be a drugged up junkie and wanting the students to be drugged up junkies.

Do you even know not only how much of a ridiculous stretch that argument is, but also how completely stupid that argument sounds?

No wonder why this clown was ignored and never got any replies from so many for so long.... this person's argument is baseless and fearmongering over a problem that simply doesn't exist.

In fact, I got perhaps about 1/3 of the way through that long winded dribble and stopped reading.

Their argument about the creepy looking cowboy smoking cigs has no relation to the led zep poster, and if anybody can't understand why it has no relation, then they shouldn't even be getting involved in this argument, because they have no clue about advertising or the messages contained in various forms of advertisement.

When I hear the name Led Zeppelin, when I see an album, when I see one of their posters, when I see one of their live performances on video, when I hear their music and when I hear other people talking about them, Drugs are not the first thing that crosses my mind..... not even the second thing.

Music is..... it's music that generally relates to their name, and it's music that most people think about when they hear the name themselves.

Thinking that every single thing they did, every single poster or artwork relating to them and all their song all have to do with drugs, promotes drugs, and everybody and their kid should be doing drugs.... thus the teacher is also promoting his/her students to do drugs..... it's the stupidest thing I've heard all week.

Seriously, there's more important things for people to be fighting then a stupid paper poster pinned up in the back of some random music class that most of the children probably don't even notice in the first place.

Get a frigging grip.

This much outrage over a poster?

So since you are so incensed with the "drug-rock" culture, I assume you equally against the alcholic and substance abuse culture of country music as well? Willie Nelson, Johnny Cash and Waylon Jennings used enough narcotics throughout their careers to build a cartel... and some still of their compatriots still are. My wife watched the CMAs a year or two ago and they were all joking about going and smoking weed in Willie's tour bus.

I'm just surprised you're not ranting about the satanic worship in the old Black Sabbath lyrics yet ...

Yeah and black people were forced to sit in the back of buses, use different washrooms, and sit far away from all the white folk in restaurants. Children were regularly beaten for the smallest infraction, women still greatly oppressed, wives could hardly get a decent job and the KKK reigned supreme.... such a great era to live in.

Sez you..... societies change for a reason.... the reason why society isn't like that anymore is because those morons were ignorant & wrong.

Then how can you say they were right and now you're right?

Or Envy it.... Time will tell.

Or Ozzy's Suicide Solution..... You know.... all this talk about rock and drugs made me horny.... I'm gonna go smoke some crack, inject heroin into my ass, slip some LSD into my eye lids and go find some prostitutes. Rock on everybody.

To the people whose favourite past time is bashing people who dare to have faith, morality equals political correctness.

Haven't many musicians and artists and sculptors, and dancers been something of a societal outcast over the ages?

I hardly think all of them were devoutly devoted to religion unless they earned money through church sponsorship of their works. Or do I believe their other focus (usually on self) is damnation itself. In fact I see judgment over others as another "damnation".... so who are we to set down the rules?

Artistic endeavour has often taken "another path" to salvation because creative people are wired a bit differently and to some members of society appear to be
indifferent to any higher power "other than themselves".

It may be the artistic and creative energy required of truly gifted people to see
only themselves in reference to the world.

Why they need enhancement with mind altering drugs I'll never know - so many are already "enhanced".

I don't want to sound jaded, BUT....

we have had a rash of dual account trolls stirring up grief on our forums lately. Considering that Liberalman recently posted a thread about how rock and roll is the best thing to happen to religion in ages, I suspect this account is merely a troll attempting to counter his view and stir up more trouble.

Not that people shouldn't be free to respond, but, keep I'd suggest no one get too wound up over the ignorant view of religious condemnation espoused by the poster as it's likely as fake as many others that have come up lately.

Wasn't Stairway a hymn?

Karrie

There's room for all isn't there? I don't see anyone keeping count or if they are it's not available to the regular folk.

Nope. There's no room for the previously banned to come back in just looking to stir up trouble. If I'm wrong, and this person proves to be a good, honest, future poster, I'll happily apologize. If I'm right, they'll be banned in a day or two and giggling over all the arguments they started among the regular members.

Like I said, everyone has the right to reply in good faith to the person.... I'm just stating my jaded perception.

I know plenty of people who have faith and practice it, and I have no beef with them.

What I have a beef with are the people who think it's their right to ruin everybody else's fun and education over something so trivial based on their religious views, as if they hold authority over what everybody should or shouldn't be doing.... and make huge deals out of nothing.

If you had a child in that music class and didn't like the poster being displayed.... take your kid out of the class and teach them yourself.... or put them in a Catholic School or something.

If other parents, teachers, students and principals don't have an issue with it and don't see the same "Messages" as you and this quack in the original link see, that's their choice.... Not Yours.

You speak of Morality being equal to Political Correctness, but as shown by other posters in here, some don't seem to understand the connection.

The original poster who said things were "Right" back in the 1950's sure seems to have plenty of "Faith" they believe in, yet in the 1950's, the Term Political Correctness wasn't even a brain fart, racism, sexism, bigotry and prejudice were rampant.... and they seem to hint that it'd be nice to go back to those days, since people like Led Zep would have been hauled away.

Hey, Bob Marley makes some offensive comments about my beliefs in one of his songs too, but more out of ignorance than any real malice. That does not change the fact that I can still admire his skills as a musician and acknowledge that I do agree with his songs on some points too.

Oh,and Marley smoked marijuana which I disagree with too, but that is a separate matter from his singing ability. Would you refuse medical attention from a highly qualified physician because he's a drinker and you're a teetotaler, or because he's a Muslim and you're a Christian? Same thing.

In this case the teacher is not endorsing anything in particular about Led Zeppelin except his musical abilities.

Now seeing that someone is obviously offended by this, maybe just for the sake of peace, the school could pass the concern on to the teacher and the teacher could decide himself whether to remove the Led Zeppelin poster at least while that parent's child is in his course.

On a less serious note, maybe he could replace the poster with a poster of the Benedictine Monks of Santo Domingo.

Praxious, I did exactly that.

I had my children educated in Catholic School, then in private school.

Put me in heavy financial straights, but it was worth it.

Fair enough... but that's what parents should do.... if the available public schools are doing things you don't agree with and don't feel your child should be subjected to, then you as a parent have full rights to take them out of that class/subject or even put them in a private school.... or even home school.

But when it comes to public schooling, if the school/faculty/most of the other students/parents don't see something as a problem and it's only one or two people having concerns.... it'll be a battle to see anything really change.

They for the most part, have to think of the school and the students as a whole and what's best for them, not what's best for one person. (generally speaking of course)

I have a sneaky suspicion that this might be a troll, too, and judging by the fanatical religiosity, Dennis again comes to mind. Perhaps the little wart is impersonating a female this time.

If it isn't a troll, it needs to grow up and realize their are other people on the planet who are even atheist and still have morals. Neither hubby nor I approve of the abuse of drugs but we are not narrow-minded enough to let that curb our enjoyment of music. If you do, you might as well go live in a cave and never come outside because the world is full of nasty things. Most of us survive to be good people in spite of the nastiness. Get a grip and a life.

Now you can be proud that they are clones of the old block.

Fair enough assessment Karrie

I'm only here as an aftermath of the great Olympic exercise and have been caught up in some of the forum topics and new people here.

If a banned member is posting again - I would have no idea - unless it is myself.
Fortunately for me Chris/Andem has been kind enough to allow me to slide back
into my old spot without too much ID gathering etc. Anyway if I were to be banned it wouldn't be for religion, nor music, nor trolling, it would be for boring people.

I thought the topic worth a shot - because I haven't seen the question asked or statement made anywhere before.

As to where children receive education - including or withholding the study of religion - that would be up to the parents although personally I think children should be exposed to all subjects involving learning and growth and having principles and new thoughts as well. They are subjects well worth sharing with
all the children of the nation...and that would include all religious beliefs.

i can be today's fool, or tomorrow's fool -- exclusively. you can fulfill prophecy by declaring me to be today's fool. then you are destined only to die and face judgment. fear God and repent; then you will be ready to hear good news that makes jimmy page's lullabies sound like the fires of hell. until then, your god is your belly, and death is the king over your mortal body. you do not know of what you speak, and you shame yourself openly before all creation.

if a self-professed atheist has morals, then he has religion, ipso-facto. you cannot call something right or wrong unless you have a religion that answers all the big questions and therein provides a framework for your ethical decisions. if darwinism is your religion, and you have integrity, then your ethical principals will be framed around the benefit of humanity by resisting the money spent looking after sick people. if you have lots of integrity, you will push toward all movements to destroy the inferior ethnic groups. richard dawkins has religion, but does not have integrity. his feet and hands do not follow his tongue. you can be an eggplant like him, you can be a man of integrity like osama bin laden (with morality based in evil), you can be a man of morals (preaching the Bible but not living it), or you can be one of the few who build your house on the Rock instead of the sand, so that when the storms come, your house will stand.

Religion doesn't know right from wrong. Just look at the news. Conscience knows ... and that comes from within.

that any sort of "goodness" originates from within the human heart is an untested religious theory / ideology in itself. to be sure, this "self-confidence," "follow your heart," "i did it my way," is precisely the religion being taught to my sons in so-called secular schools.

"do what you wanna do" is satan's religion. religious belief in "self-confidence" is in blatant contrast to the Christian belief that "in me, that is in my human flesh, there is no good thing," and hence our message to "trust in the Lord and lean not on our own understanding."

confidence is a very good thing; confidence in something worthy of trust, that is.

charles manson was self-confident, and he "followed his dreams," as did his father who beat him as a child. human beings have a wretched track record proving that their "follow your heart" religion is a miserable failure. and the blood of charles manson didn't save us either... as he noted, he was just what is inside every one of us.

the schools should provide examples of the self-confident and those who followed their dreams -- they confidently followed their dreams into their human ruin and into the fires of hell. this is not a wise religion. it is overtly foolish to those who have eyes to discern light from darkness.

I would hope that you're not relying on the school system to teach your child morality, because if that's the case, you've left it too late, and also abandoned your responsibility as a parent.

Don't blame the school system for something that is your responsibility.

Did I say it comes from the heart? Knowing what is right and what is wrong has nothing to do with angels and devils perched upon your shoulder ... and it sure can't be gleaned from the conflict in a Bible. Parents and community standards generally set the guidelines long before a kid gets much into Sunday School.