Yet another "Meat Is Bad" story.

Pangloss

Council Member
Mar 16, 2007
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IRBS and Zzarchov:

Short answer: no, you're wrong and baiting will do you no good.

Continuation of short answer to Zzarchov: I'm done with metaethics and am more interested in the thread.

Continuation to IRBS: It is now self evident you are not reading (or at least comprehending) what I've written. Repeating myself would only be insulting and futile.

If anyone has anything other than the above poster's examples of grade-school gainsaying; please, let's continue the discussion.

Pangloss
 

Zzarchov

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Aug 28, 2006
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Ethics are based on Morality. Thats pretty cut and dry. I cant seriously believe you think otherwise.

Whenever you label something as right or wrong, ethical or unethical its based on morality. When you state things like killing is unethical, you are making a moral judgement. If Ethics were not based on morality then it would exist in circumstances with no moral impact.


Even the definitions you post, clearly state it is driven by morals:
"deontological ethics

Ethical theories that maintain that the moral rightness or wrongness of an action depends on its intrinsic qualities,"


Morals are driven by emotion. We know something is wrong because we feel guilt, remorse or some other negative emotion, we see something as right if it brings happiness, relief or some other positive emotion.




Your own posts show Ethics are based upon Moral Judgements. Moral Judgements are personal and subjective. You are trying to pin your personal subjective opinions on others by claiming it is some kind of logic driven "ethical problem"

Logic can never show something as right or wrong, you can use logic to show if something is efficient or not. You could logically show eating meat is inefficient, you cannot use logic to prove an ethic unless certain moral underpinnings are communally shared.

To claim otherwise is to ignore the nature of ethics and use it as a form of Semantics to force a moral framework on someone else.
 
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Pangloss

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Zzarchov:

You must have an advanced degree in obfuscating gymnastics. This is really quite amusing. You are now changing your terminology.

Of course ethics are based on morals.

What you wrote, and I shot down, was your claim that ethics were based on emotions.

Please don't be so grade-school as to make me grab your post and quote you.

And no, little grasshopper, morals are not, by necessity based on emotions. Liberty is a moral good. Is liberty an emotion?

I tire of this pedantic foolishness, Zzarchov.

If you have something of substance to say, then bloody well say it.

Quit being wrong in the hope of being right.

Maybe someday I will explain how it is darn near impossible to create a philosophical system based on anything so unique and idiosyncratic as emotion.

Enough of your baiting.

Pangloss
 

Toro

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May 24, 2005
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I used to work on a kill floor of a meat packing plant.

We slaughtered something like 150,000 hogs the summer I worked there. I was responsible for assisting in the separation of the small intestine of the hog from the large intestine and the stomach. The small intestine is used for sausage and hot dog casings.

I eat meat because its delicious.

But I limit my red meat intake because too much isn't good for you.

There's nothing like a fine, Angus filet mignon. Mmmm, mmmm.
 

Zzarchov

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Aug 28, 2006
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Zzarchov:

You must have an advanced degree in obfuscating gymnastics. This is really quite amusing. You are now changing your terminology.

Of course ethics are based on morals.

What you wrote, and I shot down, was your claim that ethics were based on emotions.

Please don't be so grade-school as to make me grab your post and quote you.

Actually you didn't specify you just posted some links and dismissed it. The links you posted only dealt with Ethics as a form of morality. They don't mention emotion. For that you would need to look into Morality and its relationship with emotional response. This is something you didn't do before dismissing the arguement. Its also a major underpinning of personal morals.

And no, little grasshopper, morals are not, by necessity based on emotions. Liberty is a moral good. Is liberty an emotion?

Liberty is not a moral good for everyone. Liberty is only a moral good if it evokes a positive response in you. For many people liberty is seen as a moral bad, as sign of putting yourself above your family and community, alot of people think its so wrong you need to be killed for it.

So liberty is not a moral good for everyone. Which is exactly my point. Morals are based on personal emotional responses no matter how you claim otherwise.


I tire of this pedantic foolishness, Zzarchov.

If you have something of substance to say, then bloody well say it.

Quit being wrong in the hope of being right.

Maybe someday I will explain how it is darn near impossible to create a philosophical system based on anything so unique and idiosyncratic as emotion.

Enough of your baiting.

Pangloss


Thats is the most inane comment on philosophy I have ever heard, do you have any idea how many philosophical system are based upon emotions? They are a key part of the human condition.

I can see from your views you apparently are now just starting to read Hutcheson and his view that Emotions are too weak of motives, instead he uses his special 6th sense of morality approach. Which is insane. Many later refute that and go back to emotions, as emotions in the end are the biological responses which evolved to control us. Math and Emotions are the key features of man.
 

Pangloss

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Mar 16, 2007
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Zzarch - your foolish anti-logical gainsaying has earned you my coveted "ignore" feature on this thread.

You must be a real piece of work to live with.

Hate to ever lose, don't you? Must be a real hoot at your dinner table.

Funny thing is, it ain't about winning or losing, it's about understanding.

So, really Zzarchov - every time you do this, you lose.

Pangloss
 

Zzarchov

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Exactly, its about understanding. I don't go into a thread to prove im "right". thats an impossible condition, I can either inform others or be informed.

What I do not wish to do is allow misinformation to persist. It is a completely wrong viewpoint, and to me morally wrong, to try and change someones morals claiming its indisputable because you use the word "ethic" and try and tell them ethics are not based on emotion but logic.

While it is likely they won't believe you, someone reading might, and that isn't fair. My own personal memory on this is because for along time (and this is just a trivial example) I thought the Baja peninsula in Mexico was the Yucatan peninsula because in a thread about Mexican history someone had called it as such and I believed them. This just sat in my brain for years, until it badly affected my grade on a paper on Meso-American civilizations and caused a little bit of embarassment (I was younger and in school, and thought this mattered in the long run, so sue me). So every time some little bit of misinformation gets spouted as truth and no one calls you on it, its a good bet someone , somewhere is going to hold onto it as truth for a long time. Its one of the reasons alot of very bigoted views are very hard to erase (unrelated to this particular matter).

So im sorry, but Im not one to remain silent on an item like that. Perhaps its as simple as a key typo or two in someones definition, and what they meant to say was in fact correct (I do that, type does instead of doesn't or of instead of with or some other minor error), and often I make errors such as that and people correct me on it, and Im glad. Because I'd hate to let an error stand (the ole military mindset).

But what you were espousing to IRBS is well, BS. Ethics is not cool and emotionless. Its a way to rationally approach your own emotional views, and see if your standpoint is rational within the bounds of your own emotional actions or if it will cause you further grief down the road. You cannot use Ethics to judge "rationally" if someone else is acting within their own emotionally driven sense of morality using your own set of ethical guidelines.
 
May 28, 2007
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Honour our Fallen
there are two points i gotta ask and comment on coming from Zzarchov.

first off Z writes
My own personal memory on this is because for along time (and this is just a trivial example) I thought the Baja peninsula in Mexico was the Yucatan peninsula because in a thread about Mexican history someone had called it as such and I believed them. This just sat in my brain for years, until it badly affected my grade on a paper on Meso-American civilizations and caused a little bit of embarassment

I just gotta say do not go into that G spot thread if you plan on keeping your girlfriend8O.....

Ok now this is serious to me and hopefully Zzarchov responds

when you say
Thats is the most inane comment on philosophy I have ever heard, do you have any idea how many philosophical system are based upon emotions? They are a key part of the human condition.

I am searching my memory and do not see any...I don't understand how you can base a philosphy of life based on human emotion.
Well maybe love, but thats it.
Hate as in the case of Nazis and the KKK.


Is this where you are going with this. For when we talk of Love and philosphy it's isn't so much an emotion but a way in which we actually treat one another.

Same holds true with my take on the Nazis. They wanted to get rid of sub humans, which to me is hate. But it wasn't really the aim to produce hate in their thinking.They thought it was a good thing.
so it's not the emotion that is a basis for philosphy but an ideal and a way of life based on that ideal. the emotional aspect of it doesn't really come into play in the philosphy it self.
 

Pangloss

Council Member
Mar 16, 2007
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Toro you are completely correct - sadly. Well, um, not sad that you're correct, that's a good thing. . . .um, what I meant was sad this is flaming instead of the thread.

Doc - good post.

Pangloss
 
Greenhouse gas emission is a result of the methods of preparing steak, not of eating it. Unless you count the methane that may be generated after eating it, which is tiny.
Saying that eating meat is more polluting than driving a car because preparing meat takes about as much energy as moving a car 55mph for 155 miles is like saying that you should never create heat of any kind because oil heaters contribute greatly to greenhouse gases.
You don't actually HAVE to use manmade technology beyond a blade and electricity to prepare a common steak. Industry uses highly inefficient means of preparing the steak, and this is what causes the pollution. If you had a cow, you could kill it yourself, releasing no damaging gases unless you use a gun, in which case the gas released is trivial. And then you could use a knife and gut it, remove a chunk of meat and then use an electric stove to cook it. No greenhouse gases released.
This is not an argument for veganism. It's simply an exposition of how a surprising amount of pollution is created for things most of us take for granted.
Becoming a vegan for this reason is like becoming Amish because of carbon combustion.