Will the Conservative/right wing parties fade out?

[peapod]

especially when the mud slinging does not interest anyone, and they see it for what it is...keep thinking for yourself lefthour. whatever you decide will be right for you. I am impressed by your maturity...can't say I want any but impressive none the less

 

[Jay]

Re: RE: Will the Conservative/right wing parties fade out?

One thing I'd really like to know more about though is what the NDP did while in power in Ontario.

It is easy enough to look into because they have only served once from October 1990 to June 1995.

I wish you luck Lefthour, in your quest for knowledge.

 

[lefthour]

lol, well, I dunno about my maturity. I just like tolerance and to here what people have to say, without yelling at each other.

 

[lefthour]

Okay, well I guess I better get researching. Couldn't just tell me of the top of your head, lol. I do know the teachers liked those days.

 

[Jay]

Teachers are tradtional NDP supporters in Ontario...thats how they make money.

 

[Reverend Blair]

One thing I'd really like to know more about though is what the NDP did while in power in Ontario.

Considering that Bob Rae's name is starting to be bandied about in the next federal Liberal leadership race and that he was a Liberal before he was in the NDP, I think we'll just let the Liberals defend him.

To say Ontario Conservatives don't help the less fortunate is like saying Ontario doesn't exist.

Yeah, starving the homeless until they protested, then sending the storm troopers in to club them, was sure a piece of compassionate conservatism.

I've always liked the NDP becasue of their ability to stay on topic and not mud sling as much as the other parties seem to.

It's called taking the high road. It's a pretty good strategy, but frustrating as hell when the others are throwing and mud and you can't throw it back.

 

[Jay]

Yeah, starving the homeless until they protested, then sending the storm troopers in to club them, was sure a piece of compassionate conservatism.

They tried to storm the Legislator...it doesn't matter who does that, there will be trouble. You can't blame Conservatives for this...that's BS, besides why would there be any homeless after a NDP government in Ontario for 5 years?

 

[mrmom2]

I'll tell you why because goverment is about the wealthy staying that way its not about the poor and thats just a fact :wink:

 

[Reverend Blair]

They tried to storm the Legislator...it doesn't matter who does that, there will be trouble.

It was a peaceful protest until the cops started busting heads, Jay. It was a protest that was caused by the hurtful, mean-spirited actions of the Harris Conservatives.

Look at what Harris did to welfare. Can you imagine trying to live on $540 a month in Toronto? You can't rent an apartment for that, nevermind feed yourself or buy clothes to go look for a job in. Wht was that woman's name who died while under house arrest, with no income at all, because of Harris' policies? She couldn't afford food or her medicine. Was Mikey looking after her? Yeah, just like he looked after everybody.

Maybe he was just exhibiting those famous neo-con family values. You know, the values where he used his family as an excuse to get out of politics before getting his ass kicked in the next election. Nice excuse, except he then abandoned his family for his girlfriend.

We still don't know the whole story of why Dudley George was murdered in cold blood. We do know that even the OPP, who Harris was pressuring to use violence, referred to Harris as a gun-loving cowboy though.

I know Harris is your hero because he gave you a tax cut, Jay. I wonder if those couple extra cases of beer a year are really worth the ruined lives and dead bodies that paid for them though.

 

[Aitrus]

Lefthour, first and foremost be suspicious of everything everyone tells you about politics. The vast majority of it is biased and/or uninformed.

The depiction of conservatives in this country as greedy corporate selfish know-nothings is outrageously inaccurate. The conservative rank and file are small business owners and farmers. Big business has its financial pull, but the vast majority of major corporations cover the spread making financial contributions to ALL parties in this country. The association between big business and conservatism comes because both like tax cuts, but the last time I checked everybody likes tax cuts.

A little number crunching and I imagine you'd find that liberals receive as much funding from "big corporations" as conservatives do.

The history of the parties in this country is convoluted. At various times the liberals have supported free trade (~1911) and opposed it (~1994) then tacitly supported it anyways (today). You get NDP governments that look basically the same as liberal governments, and liberal governments that look like conservative governments. From province to province it varies too - the BC liberals are farther right than the Saskatchewan/Manitoba Conservatives.

At the larger economic level, there are different interpretations of how things work. Some, like myself, see that Bob Rae and the NDP nearly ruined Ontario's economy and that the Harris measures were a necessary wake-up call to NDP excess. The Harris conservatives brought unprecedented economic diversity to Ontario, giving us the resilience to handle slowdowns in the auto industry. The trudeau liberals brought a slew of social programming at great cost, which was repaired by the Mulroney conservatives (with unpopular NAFTA/GST policies), and upon which the Chretien/martin liberals have coasted ever since.

The reason your classes fancy themselves left wing are fairly simple. They don't earn income and they dont pay taxes. They are exposed to the politics of their teachers who are predominantly left-wing since the left is more favourable to teachers interests (ie public spending). And they are bombarded by a liberal media which goes to painstaking ends to demonize Canada's conservatives (see what they did to Preston Manning, who is now widely recognized in academic circles as an intelligent man skilled in policy and with a legitimate concern for his country). Now straight up, the liberal bias of Canada's media is absolutely nothing compared to the conservative bias of a US source like Fox News. We don't even come close to that kind of ridiculousness, but there is definitely a bias in much of the reporting you see against conservatives, no doubt most of your classmates think conservatives in this country are oil-guzzling wife-beating evangelical racist patriarchs.

On the periphery of all of this is the Green Party, which I think holds the most promise for Canada's future by marrying conservative economics with environmental stewardship and the more intelligent social policies of the left (stopping well short of the socialist bs touted by too many NDP supporters).

Personally I like Jack Layton, and I also think Stephen Harper is intelligent and shoots from the hip as do many people in his party like James Rajotte. I don't like the liberals as they are just too polished and sleazy. The bloq is irrelevant to me as their policies are all aimed at Quebec with no interest in the rest of us.

But yeah, if you're getting into politics and political studies you have to be vigilant. Don't get sucked in by bad arguments with no evidence that are too often purported by the majority.

You can listen to people whine about Harris and Mulroney, but the fact is if the economy slumps there is no money to be taxed for social programs. If the economy grows you can provide the same social programs for less taxes. This is common wisdom amongst everyone except the zealous left. The mitigating factor introduced by parties like the Green Party (and the other parties recently to different extents) is that econ growth cannot come at the expense of unsustainability and environmental degredation. That means your business can't run roughshod over the land, and you can only have so much social spending (based on whatever level of econ, growth is sustainable).

Anyways, that's my look at things. Its as close to unbiased as I can get.


Edit: In response to your original question, it is more likely for the right to rise in this country than to disappear over the next years. Liberal budgets look more and more like conservative budgets to start with. Also, given a Rae-like NDP government and some economic blunders people would be crying for conservative leadership to fix the economy. Finally, the social fabric of people's lives are being torn apart (in some part due to globalization and the economic integration of the world - which is conservative in origin, but also from bad policies and the decline of individual responsibility), when a threshold of nihilism is reached I expect thre will be a recoil back towards fundamental moral values (biblical or not) and the nuclear family which will predispose people to conservatism as well. My 0.02 on that.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Will the Conservative

Still pushing the myth that all NDP supporters are either welfare recipients or union members, I see. Pretty funny. It's an assertion made out of wholecloth, of course.

Nice try at pushing the myth of the "liberal media" too. Maybe you should check who endorsed which party in the last election.

The depiction of conservatives in this country as greedy corporate selfish know-nothings is outrageously inaccurate. The conservative rank and file are small business owners and farmers. Big business has its financial pull, but the vast majority of major corporations cover the spread making financial contributions to ALL parties in this country.

I really like this one. Corporations give to the Liberals and the Conservatives. It was Stephen Harper that went to court to fight fight new regulations (introduced by the Liberals) on corporate campaign donations though. Now why would he do that if he wasn't in the pocket of his corporate donors?

In Manitoba the Conservatives are still screaming bloody murder about the campaign finance reforms the NDP introduced here.

 

[Jay]

They tried to storm the Legislator...it doesn't matter who does that, there will be trouble.

It was a peaceful protest until the cops started busting heads, Jay. It was a protest that was caused by the hurtful, mean-spirited actions of the Harris Conservatives.

Look at what Harris did to welfare. Can you imagine trying to live on $540 a month in Toronto? You can't rent an apartment for that, nevermind feed yourself or buy clothes to go look for a job in. Wht was that woman's name who died while under house arrest, with no income at all, because of Harris' policies? She couldn't afford food or her medicine. Was Mikey looking after her? Yeah, just like he looked after everybody.

Maybe he was just exhibiting those famous neo-con family values. You know, the values where he used his family as an excuse to get out of politics before getting his ass kicked in the next election. Nice excuse, except he then abandoned his family for his girlfriend.

We still don't know the whole story of why Dudley George was murdered in cold blood. We do know that even the OPP, who Harris was pressuring to use violence, referred to Harris as a gun-loving cowboy though.

I know Harris is your hero because he gave you a tax cut, Jay. I wonder if those couple extra cases of beer a year are really worth the ruined lives and dead bodies that paid for them though.

There is a lot of myth pushing around here.

 

[mrmom2]

Lefthour there all liars and thieves thats all you need to know :lol: They're only in it for themselves and the lifetime pensions just look at where they end up after there done with politics cushy manegment positions :wink:

 

[Aitrus]

Lefthour there all liars and thieves thats all you need to know :lol: They're only in it for themselves and the lifetime pensions just look at where they end up after there done with politics cushy manegment positions :wink:

Probably about the most accurate statement anyone can make about contemporary Canadian politics tbh.

There are notable exceptions, such as the late Chuck Cadman, and former MP's Joe Clark, Deb Gray, and Preston Manning. Some politicians are really there for their constituents and for the country, not for their personal gain. But by and large most politicians are there to sleaze their way through to get access to public resources for kickbacks.

If you watch question period you can usually tell which are which. I think Harper is smart, but I don't think he's there because he cares about his constituency or the country. I like Jack Layton, but he is a bit too polished for me to believe he's in politics for his constituents and not personal recognition.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Will the Conservative

Layton is actually quite genuine once you get to know him (through the press and his career, I don't claim to know him personally) a bit. So are Bill Blaikie and Alexa McDonough. Alexa's story is an interesting one. She comes from serious money, but her father had a bit of a political conversion when she was young and actually tried to use his wealth to help his employees a fair bit. That rubbed off on his daughter.

There are actually a lot of politicians who are there for the right reasons. Our system tends to favour those who are there for the wrong reasons though, at least when there's a majority government. Minority governments tend towards the cream rising to the top, while majority governments tend to favour the maxim, "Shit floats."

Chretien was a wonderful example of both. If you look at his early career, he was there to do the right thing. Those were mostly minority governments. If you look at his time as PM, he was just there to stay in power at all costs. He reverted a bit at the end when he was more interested in building a legacy than whether the Liberals won the next election, but he never really recovered the morals and scruples he exhibited when he was young.

 

[lefthour]

Thank you Aitrus for your insight, I like the examples you use and explanations. I can tell your holding back a bias and thats good to see .

I'm curious about the Green party then? Do they use conservative economics with environmental protection and I guess you call the, liberal laws (SSM, legalized pot, legalized prostitution etc..).
If so I think thats a great party! well somewhat.

 

[lefthour]

I always thought Mr. Layton was a great guy too. I dont know much about him but he seems so energetic and happy. He also seems to know how to be serious at the right times. He more so than the other leaders in my opinion looks like he wants to be in parliament serving his supporters.
Harper on the other hand... well I dunno, his image doesnt say he has ambition and is ready to get up and GO! He always looks kinda out of place (like at that festival in Toronto) or he's tired/bored.
Martin looks like a Prime Minister in my opinion, although he can look kinda sleezy but, if he had some more of Jack's enthusiasm I think he'd attract some more people.
I guess though people really shouldn't be voting on looks but a lot of the time its looks what we remember people by, rather than policy.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Will the Conservative

I was scared of Layton when he won the leadership, lefthour. I thought he came across as shallow and, since I didn't know him, thought he was just another politician.

His policies and his ability to communicate have changed my mind though...something that people who know me will tell you is not an easy task.

As for Harper, he strikes me as less and less sincere whenever he says anything. Harper has flip-flopped and made dirty deal while accusing others of the same. He is not an honest man, judging by his actions, but just another opportunist willing to say anything to get elected.

I didn't like Preston Manning because of his policies, but I did respect his honesty and forthrightness. With Harper the most positive thing I can find to say about him is that at least he's unelectable.

 

[lefthour]

LOL, yeah I see what you mean. BTW who is Preston Manning?

 

[Reverend Blair]

BTW who is Preston Manning?

Okay, now I feel old. :wink:

Manning was the leader of the Reform Party. That party became the Alliance, which became the Conservatives.