I have a feeling I'm walking into a mine field here but here goes. After going through the posts many people are exteremly anti-conservative and yet they are more then happy to let the existing government get away with scandal after scandal, what is so bad about the conservatives that we allow the ruling party to get away with this? Is it that our electoral system is so messed up, lacking equal representation and allowing a party to call an election anytime they are high in the polls (or wish to boast their rating by spending money), or is it that fear mongering has become such an effective weapon that we dare not change things? So lets discuss.
Why you hate the Conservatives and what is it about Liberals
- Thread starter Colin
- Start date
RE: Why you hate the Conservatives and what is it about Libe
I expect that most Canadians are sort of middle of the road. Years ago, the PC party was PROGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVE, which was more of a centrist party with some conservative leanings.
This party was a viable option to the Liberal party, not too far off the center.
However, with the (sell out/takeover/merger/death - you pick) of that party, it is now the CONSERVATIVE party, and is much more of a right wing party. This does not appeal to the majority of Canadians, no matter how much the National Post tries to make it so.
And therefore, without a viable option for a centrist type party, Canadians put up with the Liberals.
(I had great hopes for Belinda Stronach, but alas, the extreme right wing members of the (ex-Progressive) Conservative party did not want her.)
I expect that most Canadians are sort of middle of the road. Years ago, the PC party was PROGRESSIVE CONSERVATIVE, which was more of a centrist party with some conservative leanings.
This party was a viable option to the Liberal party, not too far off the center.
However, with the (sell out/takeover/merger/death - you pick) of that party, it is now the CONSERVATIVE party, and is much more of a right wing party. This does not appeal to the majority of Canadians, no matter how much the National Post tries to make it so.
And therefore, without a viable option for a centrist type party, Canadians put up with the Liberals.
(I had great hopes for Belinda Stronach, but alas, the extreme right wing members of the (ex-Progressive) Conservative party did not want her.)
Re: Why you hate the Conservatives and what is it about Libe
I agree with that ten penny, they were the progressive conservatives at one time, now they have let religious zealots take over the party. I believe it will destroy the party. I believe time will prove me right on that one, all you have to do is listen to what most people on the street say.
I agree with that ten penny, they were the progressive conservatives at one time, now they have let religious zealots take over the party. I believe it will destroy the party. I believe time will prove me right on that one, all you have to do is listen to what most people on the street say.
Re: Why you hate the Conservatives and what is it about Libe
I really can't see Canadians being lock in step (is that how it goes?) with the religious right. Conservatives yes, Christo-fascist conservatives, no way.
peapod said:
I really can't see Canadians being lock in step (is that how it goes?) with the religious right. Conservatives yes, Christo-fascist conservatives, no way.
Re: Why you hate the Conservatives and what is it about Libe
This current bunch of Conservatives aren't the Tories we know and love. This party was born from a regional protest party and still carries its weight on its shoulders depsite the many name changes and rebranding efforts it has put itself through. It is a party with nothing to offer Canadians other than deep tax cuts and smaller government. What is the result of such efforts? The Canadian way of life we cherish being all but shut down. This brand of Conservo-kooks are bigoted [no to equal rights...unable to grasp principles], punishers [try children as young as 12 in adult court], narrow and regional in thought [the ongoing crap about dismantling bilingulaism, easterners having a culture of defeat etc.] and have proven, quite of their own volition, that they are utterly incapable of running themselves let alone a country as wonderful as this.
This current bunch of Conservatives aren't the Tories we know and love. This party was born from a regional protest party and still carries its weight on its shoulders depsite the many name changes and rebranding efforts it has put itself through. It is a party with nothing to offer Canadians other than deep tax cuts and smaller government. What is the result of such efforts? The Canadian way of life we cherish being all but shut down. This brand of Conservo-kooks are bigoted [no to equal rights...unable to grasp principles], punishers [try children as young as 12 in adult court], narrow and regional in thought [the ongoing crap about dismantling bilingulaism, easterners having a culture of defeat etc.] and have proven, quite of their own volition, that they are utterly incapable of running themselves let alone a country as wonderful as this.
RE: Why you hate the Conservatives and what is it about Libe
If Stephen Harpo had been Prime Minister for the last 4 years:
1. Canadian Troops would be deployed right now in Iraq fighting George Bush's stupid war or Islam.
2. Canada would have never reatified the Kyoto Protocol, rather right wing nut jobs from Alberta who continue to deny the fact of global warming (and that the earth is older than 6000 years) would be formulating Canada's climate change policies.
3. We would now be spending billions of dollars to assist the Americans in deployment of their Balistic Missile Defense system. Considering that the last big attack on the continent of North America was carried out with box cutters and flight manuals this seems at best a waste and at worst a destabilizing escallation in the militarization of space.
4. Stephen Harpo would have passed a civil union act to deny gays the right to marry but allow civil unions (an area of provincial jurisdiction BTW). This new law would be unconstitutional and would be sure to be struck down by the Supreme Court - putting Harpo and the CPC on the path to passing an equivalent to the current bill C-38 definition of marriage act.
If these positions while in opposition represent what he feels is good policy judgement, then opposistion is where he should stay.
If Stephen Harpo had been Prime Minister for the last 4 years:
1. Canadian Troops would be deployed right now in Iraq fighting George Bush's stupid war or Islam.
2. Canada would have never reatified the Kyoto Protocol, rather right wing nut jobs from Alberta who continue to deny the fact of global warming (and that the earth is older than 6000 years) would be formulating Canada's climate change policies.
3. We would now be spending billions of dollars to assist the Americans in deployment of their Balistic Missile Defense system. Considering that the last big attack on the continent of North America was carried out with box cutters and flight manuals this seems at best a waste and at worst a destabilizing escallation in the militarization of space.
4. Stephen Harpo would have passed a civil union act to deny gays the right to marry but allow civil unions (an area of provincial jurisdiction BTW). This new law would be unconstitutional and would be sure to be struck down by the Supreme Court - putting Harpo and the CPC on the path to passing an equivalent to the current bill C-38 definition of marriage act.
If these positions while in opposition represent what he feels is good policy judgement, then opposistion is where he should stay.
Re: Why you hate the Conservatives and what is it about Libe
Nope, us leftists support the landmine treaty.
It isn't a matter of being willing to let the Liberals get away with scandal after scandal, it is a matter of policy. The Conservatives have had their own scandals. In fact when the name Chuck Guite first came to light, it was because of a scam he'd been running for the Mulroney government. The Liberals simply continued that scam. Does that make it right? No. It does rip away any moral superiority that the Conservatives try to claim though, especially since Harper has claimed Mulroney as an advisor.
Now that doesn't mean that I support the Liberals. I see them as slightly less evil than the Conservatives, true. I also see them as much more competent, both at the business of politics (which I consider a sport), and at running the country. I don't support them though.
I do support the NDP (except for my provincial MLA who has shown himself to be a soulless PFGH who should be chemically castrated, then spiked to the big tree in my backyard with an air-nailer. After that we could slather him in hot bacon grease and let the dogs loose) because of their policies.
If you want to talk about scare tactics, consider what the Conservatives and Liberals, but especially the Conservatives, say about the NDP. They still try to equate the NDP with communism, which was a lie when they said it about Tommy Douglas when he was premier of Saskatchewan and is still a lie today. They insist that the NDP cannot be fiscally responsible, but the governments of Manitoba and Saskatchewan have proved them wrong time and again and the truth is that where the NDP have been elected they have no worse, and often a much better, fiscal record than the Conservatives and Liberals. So there are a couple of reasons not to trust Conservatives.
There are more reasons though. I've lived through the abject horror that was the Devine government in Saskatchewan. They almost bankrupted the place and were so crooked that it is rumoured they could only procreate through artificial insemination. The policies that almost bankrupted the province were based on the same neo-con doctrine of privatisation and unfettered capitalisation that Harper preaches.
I lived through the debacle that was the Filmon government in Manitoba too. They weren't quite as bad as Devine and his thugs, but Filmon did things like selling off all of the fibre optics that MTS owned, and then privatising MTS, in part becauser it would be too expensive for a Crown corporation to bring in things like fibre optic technology.
I lived through Mulroney and all of his treasonous, anti-Canadian bullshit. I got beat to a bloody pulp by some members of what would become the Reform Party because my friend objected to their overt racism.
I lived through Reagan and Bush. I lived through Thatcher. I remember Nixon. The vast majority of dead people that have appeared on my television were killed by them. Canadian Conservatives used to be different from those people, but that hasn't been true since Mulroney took over and the present crop of Conservatives are far worse than Mulroney ever was.
So why don't I like Conservatives? Their policies, their record, their crimes, their attitude.
Nope, us leftists support the landmine treaty.
It isn't a matter of being willing to let the Liberals get away with scandal after scandal, it is a matter of policy. The Conservatives have had their own scandals. In fact when the name Chuck Guite first came to light, it was because of a scam he'd been running for the Mulroney government. The Liberals simply continued that scam. Does that make it right? No. It does rip away any moral superiority that the Conservatives try to claim though, especially since Harper has claimed Mulroney as an advisor.
Now that doesn't mean that I support the Liberals. I see them as slightly less evil than the Conservatives, true. I also see them as much more competent, both at the business of politics (which I consider a sport), and at running the country. I don't support them though.
I do support the NDP (except for my provincial MLA who has shown himself to be a soulless PFGH who should be chemically castrated, then spiked to the big tree in my backyard with an air-nailer. After that we could slather him in hot bacon grease and let the dogs loose) because of their policies.
If you want to talk about scare tactics, consider what the Conservatives and Liberals, but especially the Conservatives, say about the NDP. They still try to equate the NDP with communism, which was a lie when they said it about Tommy Douglas when he was premier of Saskatchewan and is still a lie today. They insist that the NDP cannot be fiscally responsible, but the governments of Manitoba and Saskatchewan have proved them wrong time and again and the truth is that where the NDP have been elected they have no worse, and often a much better, fiscal record than the Conservatives and Liberals. So there are a couple of reasons not to trust Conservatives.
There are more reasons though. I've lived through the abject horror that was the Devine government in Saskatchewan. They almost bankrupted the place and were so crooked that it is rumoured they could only procreate through artificial insemination. The policies that almost bankrupted the province were based on the same neo-con doctrine of privatisation and unfettered capitalisation that Harper preaches.
I lived through the debacle that was the Filmon government in Manitoba too. They weren't quite as bad as Devine and his thugs, but Filmon did things like selling off all of the fibre optics that MTS owned, and then privatising MTS, in part becauser it would be too expensive for a Crown corporation to bring in things like fibre optic technology.
I lived through Mulroney and all of his treasonous, anti-Canadian bullshit. I got beat to a bloody pulp by some members of what would become the Reform Party because my friend objected to their overt racism.
I lived through Reagan and Bush. I lived through Thatcher. I remember Nixon. The vast majority of dead people that have appeared on my television were killed by them. Canadian Conservatives used to be different from those people, but that hasn't been true since Mulroney took over and the present crop of Conservatives are far worse than Mulroney ever was.
So why don't I like Conservatives? Their policies, their record, their crimes, their attitude.
RE: Why you hate the Conservatives and what is it about Libe
I agree with TenPenny with respect to the need for the Conservatives to be a centrist alternative to the Liberals.
Now, like I said in a previous post on another thread, even if the Conservatives remain a right-wing (by Canadian standards) party, they will eventually be elected into government since sooner or later Canadians will want change simply for change sake, but how long they last or what their track record will be in terms of wins and losses going forward would not, I think, be impressive.
What the original Reform Party members still do not seem to get is that Canadians as a whole are moderates, and as such, would have a very hard time electing nationally a government either too far left (NDP) or too far right (Reform/Alliance), or if they should elect one, would not likely keep it in power for long. I have heard/read many a conservative pundit state that conservatives can't win running as liberals. Well, Liberals don't run as liberals either, they run as centrists who co-opt the best ideas from both the right and the left and identify with what the bulk of the electorate are looking for in terms of government policy.
If the Conservatives simply woke up to this reality and geared their platform to the same centrist theme, along with a leader that is a personable, BELIEVEABLE point-man to implement a moderate agenda (former heads of the National Citizens Coalition who write letters to conservative American newspapers bemoaning the fact that Canadians did not blindly follow George W Bush into war in Iraq are a tough sell as "moderates"), along with a commitment to end corruption and scandal in government (something the Liberals can not match with a straight face), and I think you'd have the appealing alternative to the Liberals that Canadians are looking for.
John Tory, the new leader of the Progressive Conservative Party in Ontario, seems like the type of guy who would fit this bill. He is from Corporate Canada, but he is a moderate politically, is very personable, and has, to date, presented himself well in the short time he's been Ontario PC leader. Of course, he is still very green in politics and hasn't even run in a province-wide election campaign as leader yet, much less won anything other than his own seat in parliament, so he is still untested. Nonetheless, I think the federal cousins of the PC Party could use someone in this mould.
I agree with TenPenny with respect to the need for the Conservatives to be a centrist alternative to the Liberals.
Now, like I said in a previous post on another thread, even if the Conservatives remain a right-wing (by Canadian standards) party, they will eventually be elected into government since sooner or later Canadians will want change simply for change sake, but how long they last or what their track record will be in terms of wins and losses going forward would not, I think, be impressive.
What the original Reform Party members still do not seem to get is that Canadians as a whole are moderates, and as such, would have a very hard time electing nationally a government either too far left (NDP) or too far right (Reform/Alliance), or if they should elect one, would not likely keep it in power for long. I have heard/read many a conservative pundit state that conservatives can't win running as liberals. Well, Liberals don't run as liberals either, they run as centrists who co-opt the best ideas from both the right and the left and identify with what the bulk of the electorate are looking for in terms of government policy.
If the Conservatives simply woke up to this reality and geared their platform to the same centrist theme, along with a leader that is a personable, BELIEVEABLE point-man to implement a moderate agenda (former heads of the National Citizens Coalition who write letters to conservative American newspapers bemoaning the fact that Canadians did not blindly follow George W Bush into war in Iraq are a tough sell as "moderates"), along with a commitment to end corruption and scandal in government (something the Liberals can not match with a straight face), and I think you'd have the appealing alternative to the Liberals that Canadians are looking for.
John Tory, the new leader of the Progressive Conservative Party in Ontario, seems like the type of guy who would fit this bill. He is from Corporate Canada, but he is a moderate politically, is very personable, and has, to date, presented himself well in the short time he's been Ontario PC leader. Of course, he is still very green in politics and hasn't even run in a province-wide election campaign as leader yet, much less won anything other than his own seat in parliament, so he is still untested. Nonetheless, I think the federal cousins of the PC Party could use someone in this mould.
Re: Why you hate the Conservatives and what is it about Libe
Just because someone is not a Conservative it doesn't mean they support the Liberals. I support the NDP. They're a party that should have it's chance.
Lets not forget the PC party under Mulroney. As I understand it, Mulroney is a supporter of Harper. And the Mulroney government was more corrupt then Chrétiens Liberals.
Just because someone is not a Conservative it doesn't mean they support the Liberals. I support the NDP. They're a party that should have it's chance.
Lets not forget the PC party under Mulroney. As I understand it, Mulroney is a supporter of Harper. And the Mulroney government was more corrupt then Chrétiens Liberals.
RE: Why you hate the Conservatives and what is it about Libe
Ah so now because of Mulroney supporting Harper he is corrupt by default. I do agree with Canada being a moderate country, though I don't see the conservatives being far right wing like Reform was, they definatly moved right when they merged but not that far. But see, all I read is fear, fear of a uber right leader, who would be in power for at most 4 years and be kicked out on his butt. Fear of more scandal, that seems rather ironic, as we have had multiple scandals for years now under a liberal government. As for policy making point please point out how you know a leader, for example Harper, would do the things you say, because anyone can make opinions into facts without backing them up.
Reverand: I agree that all our parties have there scandals, to be honest its very embarresing as a Canadian, I love the country, love the people (mostly) but can only shake my head at our government. I'm not proposing a Conservative dictatorship rather but change, and keep changing when theres a scandal, cause a stink, get in the faces of our politicians and let them know we won't tolerate it. Maybe the best way is to elect NDP, and I've voted them before, wouldn't that give the big two a shake up. I maybe conservative but I am pro-choice and pro-Canadian, I just happen to be on the stance of financial responsability, moral responsability and honest leadership. None of which we find much of these days.
Ah so now because of Mulroney supporting Harper he is corrupt by default. I do agree with Canada being a moderate country, though I don't see the conservatives being far right wing like Reform was, they definatly moved right when they merged but not that far. But see, all I read is fear, fear of a uber right leader, who would be in power for at most 4 years and be kicked out on his butt. Fear of more scandal, that seems rather ironic, as we have had multiple scandals for years now under a liberal government. As for policy making point please point out how you know a leader, for example Harper, would do the things you say, because anyone can make opinions into facts without backing them up.
Reverand: I agree that all our parties have there scandals, to be honest its very embarresing as a Canadian, I love the country, love the people (mostly) but can only shake my head at our government. I'm not proposing a Conservative dictatorship rather but change, and keep changing when theres a scandal, cause a stink, get in the faces of our politicians and let them know we won't tolerate it. Maybe the best way is to elect NDP, and I've voted them before, wouldn't that give the big two a shake up. I maybe conservative but I am pro-choice and pro-Canadian, I just happen to be on the stance of financial responsability, moral responsability and honest leadership. None of which we find much of these days.
Re: RE: Why you hate the Conservatives and what is it about
They are good policies, which is obvious when people actually take the time to read them. What happens far too often is someone will state their opinion as a fact, something which happens a lot on this board, and people of like mind simply repeat it as fact without any research or checking of facts.
The conservatives also have no plan to ban abortion, as has been alleged, have not plan to cancel immigration as has been alleged, and have no plans to jail gays as has been alleged. They believe in a womans right to choose, they believe in immigration of all races subject to certain skill set qualifications, and they will not deny gays the rights and benefits associated with civil unions.
Having said all this, it is obvious that the CPC has moved much more to the center position than the previous incarnations of the Reform and Alliance. They have moved further right than the old PC's, but the old PC's were simply Liberal lite anyway, with very little difference between them and the Liberals.
Is the CPC perfect? Probably not, it has been a party for about a year and a half. But, we already know the Liberals are certainly not perfect, so to continue to support and vote for them is to continue to have low expectations. If you have low expectations, you usually have low results. As a conservative, my sights are set a little higher, with accountability, responsibility, and good fiscal management being goals to reach.
LeftCoast said:
They are good policies, which is obvious when people actually take the time to read them. What happens far too often is someone will state their opinion as a fact, something which happens a lot on this board, and people of like mind simply repeat it as fact without any research or checking of facts.
The conservatives also have no plan to ban abortion, as has been alleged, have not plan to cancel immigration as has been alleged, and have no plans to jail gays as has been alleged. They believe in a womans right to choose, they believe in immigration of all races subject to certain skill set qualifications, and they will not deny gays the rights and benefits associated with civil unions.
Having said all this, it is obvious that the CPC has moved much more to the center position than the previous incarnations of the Reform and Alliance. They have moved further right than the old PC's, but the old PC's were simply Liberal lite anyway, with very little difference between them and the Liberals.
Is the CPC perfect? Probably not, it has been a party for about a year and a half. But, we already know the Liberals are certainly not perfect, so to continue to support and vote for them is to continue to have low expectations. If you have low expectations, you usually have low results. As a conservative, my sights are set a little higher, with accountability, responsibility, and good fiscal management being goals to reach.
Re: Why you hate the Conservatives and what is it about Libe
Your "made in Canada" solution is same anti-environmental, anti-science, luddite-inspired piece of crap that Exxon dictated to George Bush.
Your "made in Canada" solution is same anti-environmental, anti-science, luddite-inspired piece of crap that Exxon dictated to George Bush.
Re: Why you hate the Conservatives and what is it about Libe
Might I suggest that you explore the positive technological advances made regarding the environment and emissions done by the oil and gas industry? Their methods of cleaner emissions and environmental clean up and rehabilitation are so far advanced from just a few years ago. The oil and gas industry is basically far ahead of where the Kyoto people want to go when it comes to emission controls and the environment. The rest of you have to catch up to where the industry is already. This is a positive that has come out of the industry, and they are to be applauded for it.
Future developments will allow them to produce the kind of technology which the Kyoto supporters want, so it is in all our best interests to ensure the oil and gas industry is allowed to continue to develop this technology. This costs money, and this money should stay in Canada to promote these advances, instead of sending it out of the country with no accountability.
Reverend Blair said:
Might I suggest that you explore the positive technological advances made regarding the environment and emissions done by the oil and gas industry? Their methods of cleaner emissions and environmental clean up and rehabilitation are so far advanced from just a few years ago. The oil and gas industry is basically far ahead of where the Kyoto people want to go when it comes to emission controls and the environment. The rest of you have to catch up to where the industry is already. This is a positive that has come out of the industry, and they are to be applauded for it.
Future developments will allow them to produce the kind of technology which the Kyoto supporters want, so it is in all our best interests to ensure the oil and gas industry is allowed to continue to develop this technology. This costs money, and this money should stay in Canada to promote these advances, instead of sending it out of the country with no accountability.
RE: Why you hate the Conservatives and what is it about Libe
I'll go on the record and say that the Conservative will not form a government for a long long time.
Their basic problem is that they have no space to move. If they try to move to the center, where the PC existed traditionally, they risk losing the support of their socially conservative base - the Alberta wing of the party. To do this and succeed, they must convince the Canadian public that they are the same as the Liberals, but better. Fat chance. This is the strategy that left the PC with only sizeable percentage of the popular vote but only a handful of seats.
The Liberals will own Ontaria as long as the CPC maintains its close connections to the freaky fringe social conservatives.
They have lost Quebec for the foreseable future. The Maritimes tend to vote Liberal and don't have enough seats anyways. Where is the base for a Conservative party that tries to move to the Center?
Joe Clark built a minority government that lasted what - 10 months, out of Ontario Red Torries and Alberta conservatives. As he had no appeal in Quebec he was toast.
The only other Conservative government since Deifenbaker was Mulroney's. Mulroney did it by alienating the Alberta nut jobs (who were unlikely to vote liberal anyways) and sweeping the Liberals out of Quebec.
I'll go on the record and say that the Conservative will not form a government for a long long time.
Their basic problem is that they have no space to move. If they try to move to the center, where the PC existed traditionally, they risk losing the support of their socially conservative base - the Alberta wing of the party. To do this and succeed, they must convince the Canadian public that they are the same as the Liberals, but better. Fat chance. This is the strategy that left the PC with only sizeable percentage of the popular vote but only a handful of seats.
The Liberals will own Ontaria as long as the CPC maintains its close connections to the freaky fringe social conservatives.
They have lost Quebec for the foreseable future. The Maritimes tend to vote Liberal and don't have enough seats anyways. Where is the base for a Conservative party that tries to move to the Center?
Joe Clark built a minority government that lasted what - 10 months, out of Ontario Red Torries and Alberta conservatives. As he had no appeal in Quebec he was toast.
The only other Conservative government since Deifenbaker was Mulroney's. Mulroney did it by alienating the Alberta nut jobs (who were unlikely to vote liberal anyways) and sweeping the Liberals out of Quebec.
Re: Why you hate the Conservatives and what is it about Libe
You're lagging behind, Blue. I'm fully aware of not just their advances, but their steps backwards and sideways. I also know which companies have been making the advances, which are lying about it, who is funding astroturf groups, and why you don't even understand that you are promoting a mistruth.
You're lagging behind, Blue. I'm fully aware of not just their advances, but their steps backwards and sideways. I also know which companies have been making the advances, which are lying about it, who is funding astroturf groups, and why you don't even understand that you are promoting a mistruth.
RE: Why you hate the Conservatives and what is it about Libe
I think a lot of the posts agreed with what I was trying to say; most Canadians seem to be middle of the road, and there aren't many choices there now. There's a reason why people like Joe Clark, John Herron, and Scott Bryson bailed on the Conservatives. The PC party of old is no more.
Chretien is a nasty, nasty, corrupt man, who makes Mulroney look innocent. Did you read the note about John Turner's birthday party? Several years ago, it was held in Ottawa. Chretien had an aide stand outside, writing down the names of Liberals who attended. And not because he wanted to thank them, either. And these are members of HIS OWN PARTY.
Harper is way, way too right wing ultra conservative Christian whatever, people in general just don't trust him. What was it I read about those who won't vote Conservative, there are the undecided and the terrified?
The NDP is not able to project the image that they are a viable governing party. I think they are an essential opposition party, because their viewpoint is needed. But I don't think they'll ever be "ready for prime time".
These are my opinions; your mileage may vary.
I think a lot of the posts agreed with what I was trying to say; most Canadians seem to be middle of the road, and there aren't many choices there now. There's a reason why people like Joe Clark, John Herron, and Scott Bryson bailed on the Conservatives. The PC party of old is no more.
Chretien is a nasty, nasty, corrupt man, who makes Mulroney look innocent. Did you read the note about John Turner's birthday party? Several years ago, it was held in Ottawa. Chretien had an aide stand outside, writing down the names of Liberals who attended. And not because he wanted to thank them, either. And these are members of HIS OWN PARTY.
Harper is way, way too right wing ultra conservative Christian whatever, people in general just don't trust him. What was it I read about those who won't vote Conservative, there are the undecided and the terrified?
The NDP is not able to project the image that they are a viable governing party. I think they are an essential opposition party, because their viewpoint is needed. But I don't think they'll ever be "ready for prime time".
These are my opinions; your mileage may vary.
Re: RE: Why you hate the Conservatives and what is it about
Colin,
One of the problems with Stephen Harper in terms of being seen as a "moderate" leader is simply the fact that the evidence of what he has done outside of politics is anything but "moderate" in the Canadian sense of the word.
As we all know, political leaders of all stripes tend to say/do anything to try and get their party elected, so what the "official" conservative party platform contains for the next election is more of a campaign tool (as it is with the Liberals) than an honest look at what a given leader truly desires for a nation. Consequently, it is much easier to judge what a particular party leader really thinks/wants for the country by taking a look at his actions while he was not leader of the party "playing the political game", and Stephen Harper paints a picture of being pretty far right fiscally and not a big fan of a strong federal government:
1) His statement about building a "firewall" around Alberta to shield it from the federal government.
2) His position as head of the National Citizens Coalition, an organization that can hardly be described as a moderate force on the Canadian landscape (I believe the National Citizens Coalition was born as an organization whose goal was to oppose the creation of universal medicare in this country).
3) Harper's letter to the Wall Street Journal in which he told it's readers of his regret that the Canadian government was not supportive of George W Bush's attack on Iraq.
4) His not-so-subtle suggestions that he can be the federalist alternative in Quebec because of a willingness to transfer more powers to provincial governments along with more provincial responsibilities (and thus less federal responsibility) for governing their own provincial houses (an appeal to soft Quebec nationalists).
etc.
Also, does anyone really think that the "National Citizens Coalition Leader Stephen Harper", free from political concerns, would have really spoken out against the Preston Manning / Mike Harris policy paper on private delivery of healthcare? I suspect that not only would Mr. Harper not have spoken out against it, he would have likely joined Manning and Harris in praise of it.
Now, don't misunderstand me. I am not arguing here that any/all of the above positions of Mr. Harper are categorically 'wrong' (well, maybe the Iraq thing....
). However, they are not what you would call "moderate Canadian" positions, and I think it is natural for people to suspect that Mr. Harper's drive to the center may be less than genuine.
I think that, deep in his heart, Stephen Harper would, if he became Prime Minister, try to move the country as far to the right fiscally as he could without encountering the wrath of moderate Canadians. Obviously he would be limited by Canadian tolerance with just how far he could go and/or if there was only a minority CPC government, but perception and image do count in federal politics, and I think Mr. Harper has already shown his cards.
Colin said:
Colin,
One of the problems with Stephen Harper in terms of being seen as a "moderate" leader is simply the fact that the evidence of what he has done outside of politics is anything but "moderate" in the Canadian sense of the word.
As we all know, political leaders of all stripes tend to say/do anything to try and get their party elected, so what the "official" conservative party platform contains for the next election is more of a campaign tool (as it is with the Liberals) than an honest look at what a given leader truly desires for a nation. Consequently, it is much easier to judge what a particular party leader really thinks/wants for the country by taking a look at his actions while he was not leader of the party "playing the political game", and Stephen Harper paints a picture of being pretty far right fiscally and not a big fan of a strong federal government:
1) His statement about building a "firewall" around Alberta to shield it from the federal government.
2) His position as head of the National Citizens Coalition, an organization that can hardly be described as a moderate force on the Canadian landscape (I believe the National Citizens Coalition was born as an organization whose goal was to oppose the creation of universal medicare in this country).
3) Harper's letter to the Wall Street Journal in which he told it's readers of his regret that the Canadian government was not supportive of George W Bush's attack on Iraq.
4) His not-so-subtle suggestions that he can be the federalist alternative in Quebec because of a willingness to transfer more powers to provincial governments along with more provincial responsibilities (and thus less federal responsibility) for governing their own provincial houses (an appeal to soft Quebec nationalists).
etc.
Also, does anyone really think that the "National Citizens Coalition Leader Stephen Harper", free from political concerns, would have really spoken out against the Preston Manning / Mike Harris policy paper on private delivery of healthcare? I suspect that not only would Mr. Harper not have spoken out against it, he would have likely joined Manning and Harris in praise of it.
Now, don't misunderstand me. I am not arguing here that any/all of the above positions of Mr. Harper are categorically 'wrong' (well, maybe the Iraq thing....
). However, they are not what you would call "moderate Canadian" positions, and I think it is natural for people to suspect that Mr. Harper's drive to the center may be less than genuine.I think that, deep in his heart, Stephen Harper would, if he became Prime Minister, try to move the country as far to the right fiscally as he could without encountering the wrath of moderate Canadians. Obviously he would be limited by Canadian tolerance with just how far he could go and/or if there was only a minority CPC government, but perception and image do count in federal politics, and I think Mr. Harper has already shown his cards.
Re: Why you hate the Conservatives and what is it about Libe
AS long as people buy into the fearmongering and lies being told about the CPC and Harper, then we will be forced to have a liberal government that has shown to be old, tired, arrogant, and corrupt. To not acknowledge that a persons position can change over time is to be naive and lazy. Some of what Harper said is several years old, and like another post I made here, by the same reasons you don't want Harper, old quotes by older Liberals should equate to not voting for them either.
As long as closed minded people are easily swayed by ignorance, this country will continue to have the same crappy government we have had for the last 12 years. Open your mind folks, it does not hurt, and you may actually learn something.
AS long as people buy into the fearmongering and lies being told about the CPC and Harper, then we will be forced to have a liberal government that has shown to be old, tired, arrogant, and corrupt. To not acknowledge that a persons position can change over time is to be naive and lazy. Some of what Harper said is several years old, and like another post I made here, by the same reasons you don't want Harper, old quotes by older Liberals should equate to not voting for them either.
As long as closed minded people are easily swayed by ignorance, this country will continue to have the same crappy government we have had for the last 12 years. Open your mind folks, it does not hurt, and you may actually learn something.