Why would anybody support the Liberals?

Citizen

Electoral Member
Jan 6, 2006
169
0
16
Re: RE: Why would anybody support the Liberals?

nomore said:
He didn't deny saying he supported the war in Iraq, he said he now sees he was mistaken, as he was misled, along with many others, with false information.

Well of course he's going to say he was "mistaken" at this juncture. In the middle of an election campaign, knowing most Canadians were/are opposed to the war in Iraq. :lol:

People also forget that Martin (while finance minister) also supported sending troops to Iraq. However he now claims he never said that.

Even if Martin did say that, remember he was in competition with Chretien at the time which very well could have coloured his viewpoints.

So the way I see it, at least Harper admitted his mistake, where as Martin has not.

The way I see it, Harper is a liar. :lol:
 

Hank C

Electoral Member
Jan 4, 2006
953
0
16
Calgary, AB
I agree with Colpy about the war in Iraq. I also question if it was the best move, but I feel we need to support our allies...and again it is not just the US. Imagine Canada had been attacked by terrorists, the US would of been the first to hold Canada up at its time of need and stand by us....lets not forget we are still on the top 5 list for Al Qaeda.

I also belive if Paul Martin was PM at the time he would of went to war...its was Jean Cheretien who kept us back, and as much as I seriously disagree with his policies and party, I give him some credit for having balls.
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
43
48
Vancouver, BC
Speculation

One should not condemn the Rt. Hon. Paul Martin for speculation on what he might have done, considering there is no evidence to suggest that he would have joined in the war; speculation is all, at this point I would assert, that exists.

And I agree, the Rt. Hon. Jean Chrétien deserves a bit of respect for standing up for Canada. Well, what he believed was standing up for us, anyway; we could aruge all day whether or not he made the right choice, but he went for what he believed in.
 

Citizen

Electoral Member
Jan 6, 2006
169
0
16
Re: RE: Why would anybody support the Liberals?

Hank C said:
I agree with Colpy about the war in Iraq. I also question if it was the best move, but I feel we need to support our allies...and again it is not just the US. Imagine Canada had been attacked by terrorists, the US would of been the first to hold Canada up at its time of need and stand by us....lets not forget we are still on the top 5 list for Al Qaeda.

The 9/11 terrorist attacks were not ordered by Saddam.

Canada has, in fact, stood by the United States with respect to the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Our troops have been and are currently in Afghanistan, we had ships in the Arabian sea, etc.
 

nomore

Electoral Member
Jan 5, 2006
109
0
16
Re: Speculation

FiveParadox said:
One should not condemn the Rt. Hon. Paul Martin for speculation on what he might have done, considering there is no evidence to suggest that he would have joined in the war; speculation is all, at this point I would assert, that exists.

By that, you then can't hold Harper to what he "might" have done.
 

nomore

Electoral Member
Jan 5, 2006
109
0
16
Re: RE: Why would anybody support the Liberals?

Citizen said:
In my view he has. His history bears that out.

please explain how his history supports that....
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
43
48
Vancouver, BC
I am not condemning him for what he might have done; he did vote against a motion to keep out of the war in Iraq. The Hon. Stephen Harper made an elaborate speech to oppose the position of the Government, and he voted against the motion to keep out of the intervention.

His speech and the motion's vote are recorded in the Hansard. I think it's number 079 in the Hansard, not one hundred percent sure on that. Whatever the number is, it was on March 20, 2003, lol.
 

Citizen

Electoral Member
Jan 6, 2006
169
0
16
Re: RE: Why would anybody support the Liberals?

nomore said:
Citizen said:
In my view he has. His history bears that out.

please explain how is history supports that....

His lengthy history with the NCC. A leopard doesn't change his spots no matter how often he tries to tell you he has. :wink:
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
43
48
Vancouver, BC
The questionable speeches of the Hon. Stephen Harper from past years don't exactly help him meld into the "centrist" look he's trying to assume.
 

nomore

Electoral Member
Jan 5, 2006
109
0
16
Re: RE: Why would anybody support the Liberals?

FiveParadox said:
The questionable speeches of the Hon. Stephen Harper from past years don't exactly help him meld into the "centrist" look he's trying to assume.

IMO, they are very central, just not very left. But that's a different debate. :)
 

Triple_R

Electoral Member
Jan 8, 2006
179
0
16
FiveParadox - Well, perhaps Harper is simply like many Americans... they supported the invasion of Iraq at one point, but not any more.

When the old Canadian Alliance combined with the old Tories, you took a solidly right-wing party and combined them with a centrist party (Joe Clark had some fairly liberal views on a few issues), and some differences had to be ironed out. It shouldn't surprise people that Harper has moved closer to the center, since that's what he had to do for the good of his new party. I'm less concerned with what Harper believes in his heart of hearts than I am with what he intends to do should he get elected.

I can't imagine Harper moving much to the right after getting elected, should he get elected... that would simply make him an one-term Prime Minister, and would bury the new Conservatives for some time to come. Harper knows what he did wrong last election, and he certainly knows about what Stockwell Day did wrong back during Chretien's last victory.

Canada is a Center-Left country, and Harper would be foolish to attempt to govern from the solid right in a Center-Left country. On the Same-Sex Marriage issue, the most I see is a terminology change. On abortion, I see virtually nothing changing. Heck, I've even heard NDP political commentators state that Harper has moved very much away from the right on the abortion issue. There's your 'scary' hidden agenda.

Harper's stance on Health Care IS worrisome, but then the Liberals aren't any better. And it's not hidden. It's pretty obvious.

Basically, if perserving a strong universal Health Care system is most important to you, vote NDP.

Otherwise, you should probably vote Conservative, if for no other reason than to kick out the Liberals. ;)

Myself, I'm still debating how important Health Care is to me. It's important, but then it's highly unlikely the NDP will win in my riding...
 

Triple_R

Electoral Member
Jan 8, 2006
179
0
16
Colpy, Cosmo, and nomore - Thanks. :)

FiveParadox - By the way, I really thank you for the courage to answer this thread from a pro-Liberal perspective. This thread would have been boring otherwise. ;)
 

nitzomoe

Electoral Member
Dec 31, 2004
334
0
16
Toronto
RE: Why would anybody sup

so far the conservative pary, in all its previous forms has done little to no good for the country starting all the way back with John A Macdonald and his currupt government. If this party had been under somebody different say Steve Mackay i mite consider it but otherwise absolutely not.

All these freebies that harper and layton are dolling out are only possible because of the Liberal Fiscal policy which has boosted our economy, and paying off the interest and some principal from our national debt. In terms fo curruption and mismanagement I dont doubt the government of Harper will not equal Chretien's.

Liberals all teh way! though it looks like come voting day they mite just get swept.
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
10,506
33
48
The Evil Empire
Re: My Position

Citizen said:
Colpy said:
Honestly, I can't argue this with you because I thought, and I still believe, we should be in Iraq with our natural allies.....not just the USA, but the UK and Australia.

The Iraq situation is arguably an illegal war, started by those cowboys in Washington. I disagree with you that Canada should have gone into Iraq and was quite pleased when Chretien resolved to follow the letter of international law and U.N. in that respect.

Regarding the U.K., I suggest to you that Britain owed the U.S. Remember the Falkland Islands war? Australia I've no idea about....

This sounds familiar, Serbia anyone?
 

#juan

Hall of Fame Member
Aug 30, 2005
18,326
119
63
It is not my intention to change anyone's mind about who they vote for. My problem with Harper is that he changes his position depending on the political wind. Stephen Harper now says he is against the war in Iraq but he is the same Stephen Harper who wrote a letter to the Wall Street Journal saying how sorry he was that Canada was not in Iraq and that if he was elected Canada would be fighting side by side with the Americans and the British. Harper has changed his position about Kyoto, SSM, missile defence, and the war in Iraq depending , I suppose, on what he thought was popular at the time. Harper's platform, if you can call it that, has evolved since the election was called by stealing from the other two parties. This is all on record and is no secret to any but the ignorant.
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
539
113
Regina, SK
I haven't yet decided how I'm going to vote, but it seems to me there's a lot of nonsense going on in the campaigning. I suppose that shouldn't surprise me though, it's the nature of political campaigns.

I don't, for instance, buy the arguments about Liberal corruption. In the sponsorship scandal, what happened was that a few politicians and bureaucrats operating out of the PMO paid exorbitant sums to a few Montreal advertising firms for not much work, which then kicked some of it back to them and the Quebec wing of the federal Liberal Party. That's all. Not many people were involved, they've all been outed, and none of them are part of the current government, which acted immediately to put a stop to it. Even Chretien, nominally responsible for it all, was found guilty by Gomery of nothing more than sloppy management. Bit of a stretch to get from there to claiming the whole Liberal Party is corrupt.

The income trusts business that's got a lot people calling for Ralph Goodale's head is another storm in a teapot. The RCMP very carefully said there's no evidence anybody leaked anything. Goodale himself is not under investigation or suspicion and thus there's no reason for him to resign. The only evidence so far is a suspicious pattern of trading, which might mean nothing more than that some traders guessed right before the announcement.

Dingwalls' remark about "I'm entitled to my entitlements" is perhaps an impolitic way to put it, but it happens to be a true statement. I've worked as a federal public servant at various times, and I know Treasury Board's rules about who's entitled to what are quite clear and unambiguous. And reasonable.

I also think Harper's just playing a role. You wanna see about his flip flops on issues, Google "Stephen Harper quotes" and see what comes up. His comments and speeches when he was with NCC, and a Reform MP, are full of inconsistencies and extreme right wing ideological positions. That's who I think he really is, a far right ideologue pretending to be somebody he's not in order to get elected. And as an economist he certainly ought to know better than to cut the GST. A consumption tax is much fairer than most other taxes, and it happens to be the source of the surplus. His game is political expediency, and I don't believe a word he says.

I also remember too clearly the corruption and ballooning deficit of Mulroney's time in office. Remember how he hammered John Turner in the leaders' debate about patronage, then spent a decade going far beyond anything Turner did in terms of patronage? Then there's the horrible things Grant Devine's Conservative government did in Saskatchewan in the 1980s. Every example I've seen up close of a right wing government in my adult life has been ethically bankrupt and intellectually sterile. Harper's got a long way to go to convince me he's any different. What was that announcement he made last week, no capital gains tax on stocks donated to charities? Wow, there's one that'll help out working Canadian families.

I can't vote for the right. Ever.
 

Triple_R

Electoral Member
Jan 8, 2006
179
0
16
Dexter Sinister - I don't think it's nonsense, and I have to strongly disagree with a lot of what you're writing. You talk about the Quebec wing of the Liberal party like it's a tiny fringe part of the party. It's not. The Quebec wing of the Liberal party typically provides the party with its national leader (Pierre Elliot Trudeau, and Jean Chretien being the two most obvious examples of this). The Quebec wing of the Liberal party is the most powerful wing in that party. If it's corrupt, then the Liberal party as a whole might as well be corrupt, since the Quebec wing is the driving force in the Liberal party.

"I'm entitled to my entitlements" may be technically correct, but it still reflects a corrupt, self-centerred mentality on the part of liberals.

With all due respect, you have to be terribly naive to believe that all of the trading that took place JUST before the Income Trusts' announcement is completely coincidental. It's much more logical, and realistic, to believe, as I do, that there was a leak at some point.

Look, the Liberals clearly have a record of giving unfair rewards to their friends. The Sponsorship Scandal, as well as half a dozen other scandals, clearly proves this. The Liberals lost the benefit of the doubt a long time ago.

Where there's lots, and lots, of smoke, there's typically a fire. The same is true here.

People are simply believing "where there's lots of smoke, there's a fire".

I might comment on the rest of your post later, but I have to leave for now.
 

Briteyes

New Member
Nov 29, 2005
43
0
6
I am not sure how I am going to vote this time around but I can tell you this anybody but Steven Harper. With his plan to have manditory sentences for crimes. I wonder where he is going to put these people our prisons are already over crowded and who wants another prison in their back yard. Also because our courts are already backed up how are we supposed to have trials for these people anyway. And if we are going to build new prisons where is the money going to come from. With all of Steven Harpers pledges we will be back in deficit territory within 6 months. OH yes I forgot lets just privatize the prison system it has worked well in the US. Then there is the war in Iraq we would have lost many young canadians had we had a conservative governement. Last but not least there is medicare I like our medicare system it is not perfect but it is public.