WHY do Muslims believe the text of the Bible has been corrupted?

[SirJosephPorter]

My judgment is that the stakes in this particular context are exactly zero: there's no supernatural being who cares what we do, Revelation's not about our future, and the Bible's largely a work of fiction. It's pretty good fiction, mind you, deals with all the themes that concern any thoughtful person, but it's still fiction.

It is good fiction, all right. It has plenty of gore, violence, mayhem, fairy tales (Garden of Eden itself is a pretty good fairy tale). Any literature that has that makes for a fascinating, gripping read.

But so is Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings etc. Bible need not be considered any more important than other similar works of fiction.

Best evidence is that the gospels were written long after after Jesus' death by people who'd never met him, they were just recording and codifying an oral tradition that had no doubt been embellished a great deal. Islam and Christianity are equally false.

Besides, there are not only four Gospels, there are several more, the so called Gnostic Gospels. Around 200 A.D. They arbitrarily decided to exclude all except the four Gospels of New Testament.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

Are you saying I was trying to 'trick you'?

No, if I'd meant that I'd have said that. You just asked things that had no sensible referents, along the lines of "How high is up?"

 

[MHz]

But so is Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings etc. Bible need not be considered any more important than other similar works of fiction.

Given an unlimited budget could you make it into a movie and not have nay verses 'left over'?

No, if I'd meant that I'd have said that. You just asked things that had no sensible referents, along the lines of "How high is up?"

All the way to a third Heaven apparently.
You bailed when I suggested that every occurrence of 'that day' from Daniel on is about Christ 2nd return. Since those two examples are the hardest proof they are also the most difficult for some to 'accept as a basic truth' when covering prophecy.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

You bailed when I suggested that every occurrence of 'that day' from Daniel on is about Christ 2nd return.

And I've told you repeatedly that neither Revelation nor the shorter apocalyptic passages in the OT have anything to do with our future, they're about political events that were current at the time they were written. Christ isn't coming back.

 

[MHz]

And I've told you repeatedly that neither Revelation nor the shorter apocalyptic passages in the OT have anything to do with our future, they're about political events that were current at the time they were written. Christ isn't coming back.

Whatt??? Did global warming scare Him off?

 

[MHz]

1- Muslims belong to God Almighty; as do all other peoples and nations created by God Most Gracious.

Okay

2- Some distorted books may lead to distorted doctrines of the enthusiasm for one who depends on such distorted and altered books.

If the Holy Bible is less than the Quran because of things like translation errors then an true translation could very well have authority that is far above the Torah, the Quran and any other texts that mention God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the only one to have had existence in Heaven with God prior to having a fleshy body to go with that breath of life. When doing a side by comparison Jesus has the most said about Him. John the Baptist was propheciesed as coming to be a witness to the arrival of the Messiah. Not knowing the exact count Jesus as High Priest was mentioned many times and the Messiah as King is well over 100 times.

3- Jesus, Mohammed and Moses are only apostles, not more.

As I started to cover just above Jesus and the OT prophets shared a few things, they are all acting as servants of God as far as prophecy is concerned. Angels worship Christ, they do not worship any man.

4- Gentiles and the Chosen People of God and the progeny of Aaron the priests ...etc.
The Chosen People of God: at the time of Moses and the prophets after him: these were the pious among the Children of Israel who followed the prophets and the commandments of God and fought in the way of God against the idolatry and that God alone is the God without associate.

Okay, with the exception of Jonah who had a side trip to hell for 3 days and 3 nights.

Then when Jesus came: the people chosen by God to be devoted to Him alone: these were the Christians who followed Jesus at his time.

No, Jesus was gathering people to God, as part of that God gave Him 12 Apostles that would continue where Jesus left off after ascending to Heaven 40 days after coming back from the dead. Granted the OT Saints that also came out of the graves went to Heaven that very day, as did Jesus, only Jesus came back from there and it was on that same day. OT Prophets were never given anybody to carry on where they left off, all of them completed their missions in full. Jesus merely defined who He had authority over in that before a person can be destroyed with the 2nd death they have to have been offered the 2nd birth.

Then when Mohammed came: the people chosen by God are the Islamic nation who followed Prophet Mohammed at his time.

Christianity didn't replace the 12 Tribes as each are mentioned separately in the future, who the 7 Churches includes doesn't leave anybody left out as the Churches were mentioned in John's day and they are still valid at the time of the end because His return is called great tribulation and the Church is subject to a cleansing that will see the sinners removed from the Church and from the land of the living.

Re:1:7:
Behold,
he cometh with clouds;
and every eye shall see him,
and they also which pierced him:
and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.
Even so,
Amen.

The Chosen People of God are now the Muslims who devote themselves to God alone and believe in all God's apostles and prophets and in all His revealed books including the Quran and its interpretation.

The NT isn't finished, Revelation hasn't even started to unfold yet.

4- Jesus is not different from Mohammed nor from Moses or Abraham in following and inviting people to glorify God alone and in fearing God alone.

I agree He did that, notice only His disciples baptized people before the cross, after the cross Jesus started to baptize with a different one than water. That will happen again at His arrival as King of the Earth, even the physically dead are part of that baptism.

As in the Quran 46: 9

قُلْ مَا كُنتُ بِدْعًا مِّنْ الرُّسُلِ وَمَا أَدْرِي مَا يُفْعَلُ بِي وَلَا بِكُمْ إِنْ أَتَّبِعُ إِلَّا مَا يُوحَى إِلَيَّ وَمَا أَنَا إِلَّا نَذِيرٌ مُّبِينٌ​

The explanation:
(Say [O Mohammed]: "I am not the first innovation of the messengers [but many apostles passed before me, so why do you surprise and deny me];

even I know not what shall be done with me or with you [in the future];

I only am following that which is revealed to me [from my Lord];

I am only an obvious warner.")​

While concerning Jesus: he is one apostle before whom many apostles had passed before him. So why do you glorify him exclusively apart from the rest of God's apostles? While Jesus together with his mother ate the food and relieved the nature, so how can they be any gods?

As in the Quran 5: 75

مَّا الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ إِلاَّ رَسُولٌ قَدْ خَلَتْ مِن قَبْلِهِ الرُّسُلُ وَأُمُّهُ صِدِّيقَةٌ كَانَا يَأْكُلاَنِ الطَّعَامَ انظُرْ كَيْفَ نُبَيِّنُ لَهُمُ الآيَاتِ ثُمَّ انظُرْ أَنَّى يُؤْفَكُونَ​

The explanation:
(The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger, messengers before him passed away [so why do you glorify him alone, excluding others?] His mother was a true believer [in the Ten Commandments of her Lord]; [the Messiah and his mother] both ate food [and anyone eats food, has to relieve nature, therefore how could they be gods?] See [Mohammed] how We make clear the revelations to them; then see how perverted they are [away from the truth!]​

Say: "Do you serve, apart from God, [the Messiah] that [now] cannot hurt or profit you [because he died and his soul ascended to heaven, among angels]; while God is the All-Hearing [of any who cries to Him], the All-Knowing [of any who supplicates Him?

Say: "people of the Bible [lit. Scripture], do not go beyond the bounds, in your religion, other than the truth [that the Christ is the son of man, not the son of God], and follow not the vain desires of a people [: your monks and clergymen] who went astray before [away from the truth, seeking after wealth and position], and led astray much many [of people], and themselves erred from the plain way [of Paradise, so they reached the Fire in the afterlife.​

Jesus is above all other men in that He will sit on a Throne with God Almighty. That was preordained even before He existed which was even before Angels and the Earth existed. Proverbs 8 is His witness of creation.

I hope you don't mind me moving this out of the Israel thread

​

 

[SirJosephPorter]

And I've told you repeatedly that neither Revelation nor the shorter apocalyptic passages in the OT have anything to do with our future, they're about political events that were current at the time they were written. Christ isn't coming back.

No doubt coming of the Messiah is foretold in OT. Christians claim that Jesus is the foretold Messiah. But it was the Jews who did the foretelling. And according to Jews, Christ is not the Messiah foretold.

So in the opinions of Jews, Christianity is predicated upon a false Messiah.

 

[ironsides]

No doubt coming of the Messiah is foretold in OT. Christians claim that Jesus is the foretold Messiah. But it was the Jews who did the foretelling. And according to Jews, Christ is not the Messiah foretold.

So in the opinions of Jews, Christianity is predicated upon a false Messiah.

Then again, it was the Jews who proclaimed Jesus the Messiah, there were no Christians during Christ's life.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Then again, it was the Jews who proclaimed Jesus the Messiah, there were no Christians during Christ's life.

You mean a few Jews proclaimed him to be the Messiah, followed him and became Christians. Most Jews rejected the claim that Christ is the Messiah.

Even today there are some Jews who consider Christ to be the Messiah. They are called Messianic Jews. They are in fact Christians (they are not officially recognized as Jews by Israel). They continue the charade of calling themselves Jews to hoodwink other Jews into accepting Christ as the Messiah.

 

[ironsides]

You mean a few Jews proclaimed him to be the Messiah, followed him and became Christians. Most Jews rejected the claim that Christ is the Messiah.

Even today there are some Jews who consider Christ to be the Messiah. They are called Messianic Jews. They are in fact Christians (they are not officially recognized as Jews by Israel). They continue the charade of calling themselves Jews to hoodwink other Jews into accepting Christ as the Messiah.

And today we have Christian believers that far out number those of the Jewish faith. But no they are still waiting for the Messiah. They do not refer to Abraham, Jesus or Muhammad as a false profit, just not the Messiah.