Where Conservative Policies Lead.

[Knightman]

Knightman:

I guess what frustrates me is that virtually everyone on both sides of the political spectrum agree there are problems that need fixing, in all provinces. The right would like to explore an expansion of the private/public mix, but whenever the left, or at least the radical left, hears the word "private" they man the barricades because the hordes from the west are coming. That attitude alone discourages any real discussion or debate, and the final solution is simply throw more money at it, with no more accountability than before and no more results than before.

Until someone has the cojones to actually go ahead with this, and damn the complaints, nothing will ever change, and that is not only frustrating, but fiscally irresponsible.

I prefer to expand the existing public/private mix, because the present solution has not worked, as we all seem to agree. There have been study after study, and we don't need no more damn studies. What we need now is action not words. :twisted:

Yes, I have to chime in with you on these statments, no doubt that the haggling, arguing, and left/right hissy fits do nothing to bring about a solution to our existing problems and yes actually we are real good at studing things and very bad at actually doing anything.

If you stop to think about the public/private health care mix there is no reason that would not work. If the public care systems capabilities began to match or exceed the private sector one would think that out of simple economics the profit in private operations would dry up. Why pay to go to a private hospital or clinic when you can get the same service for at a much lower cost at a public hospital or clinic, given that the service provided is equal. I would like to see that competition option left open to keep the mix honest. You had mentioned that you would like to see the health care system regulated for the purpose of standards nationally but provinces having the real say on the day to day operation and the control of how they want to function, if I understood that correctly I would have to agree that is a good way to do it................

 

[bluealberta]

Knightman:

I guess what frustrates me is that virtually everyone on both sides of the political spectrum agree there are problems that need fixing, in all provinces. The right would like to explore an expansion of the private/public mix, but whenever the left, or at least the radical left, hears the word "private" they man the barricades because the hordes from the west are coming. That attitude alone discourages any real discussion or debate, and the final solution is simply throw more money at it, with no more accountability than before and no more results than before.

Until someone has the cojones to actually go ahead with this, and damn the complaints, nothing will ever change, and that is not only frustrating, but fiscally irresponsible.

I prefer to expand the existing public/private mix, because the present solution has not worked, as we all seem to agree. There have been study after study, and we don't need no more damn studies. What we need now is action not words. :twisted:

Yes, I have to chime in with you on these statments, no doubt that the haggling, arguing, and left/right hissy fits do nothing to bring about a solution to our existing problems and yes actually we are real good at studing things and very bad at actually doing anything.

If you stop to think about the public/private health care mix there is no reason that would not work. If the public care systems capabilities began to match or exceed the private sector one would think that out of simple economics the profit in private operations would dry up. Why pay to go to a private hospital or clinic when you can get the same service for at a much lower cost at a public hospital or clinic, given that the service provided is equal. I would like to see that competition option left open to keep the mix honest. You had mentioned that you would like to see the health care system regulated for the purpose of standards nationally but provinces having the real say on the day to day operation and the control of how they want to function, if I understood that correctly I would have to agree that is a good way to do it................

Yes, that is what I was trying to say, and I agree with your comments as well. My question is, how do people like you and I convince the left, and this is not to goad or taunt, but people like the Rev on this post that a public/private mix should at least be explored? As you know, the Rev and many people like him are very much against this option, so how do we convince them?

Pea, this is not an attack on the Rev, I was using him as an example in this case, because he has made it very clear he is against any public input into the health care system.

 

[peapod]

Bluealberta, you must think I was born under a cabbage leaf. I will take your post up with andem.

 

[Derry McKinney]

RE: Where Conservative Po

I guess that makes me, "people like the, Rev."

It really isn't that complicated, BA. Private healthcare costs more because it has to turn a profit and there is at least one more layer of bureaucracy involved. It also provides less service because when people have to pay, there are always people who can't pay and are therefore refused services. If the government pays their bill instead, then it costs you and me more in taxes...another bit of corporate welfare.

 

[Cosmo]

Pea, this is not an attack on the Rev, I was using him as an example in this case, because he has made it very clear he is against any public input into the health care system.

bluealberta ... it's personal again. Your views are welcome, your references to any particular person are not. As a courtesy, I approached you outside the forum about this issue, yet you still insist on singling out people in your posts.

Your politics are not at issue. Your approach is. The Rev has not even posted for a few days, yet you still continue to pick at him. Kinda like being nibbled to death by ducks ... no wonder Rev got upset. Your reference was double edged, aimed at both Rev and Pea. I do hope Andem takes this up with you and, if you continue, gives you an invitation to the world (nice way of saying bans you).

To pretend the issue is about left/right wing politics doesn't fly. It's about personal attacks. Your behaviour is in question, not your beliefs. I have made every effort to pour oil on troubled waters but have run out of options to convince you not to goad people. Just smarten up, will ya???? Play nice or take your keyboard and go away.

 

[peapod]

Good post cosmos. Perhaps bluealberta will get the message...unless of course...mmmmm let me think?? he is not really interested in a middle of the road board, but has something else in mind :idea:
Bluealberta I must tell you there is something very distasteful about people who kick a dog when its down.

 

[Knightman]

Re: RE: Where Conservative Po

I guess that makes me, "people like the, Rev."

It really isn't that complicated, BA. Private healthcare costs more because it has to turn a profit and there is at least one more layer of bureaucracy involved. It also provides less service because when people have to pay, there are always people who can't pay and are therefore refused services. If the government pays their bill instead, then it costs you and me more in taxes...another bit of corporate welfare.

There are always going to be people that can not afford private healthcare and then there are those who can afford any and all services provided even to the point of the commercial hospital chains such are operating say in India.

The public/private question can not be answered in black and white terms it can be a mix, it does not have ot be all one way or the other way. As I mentioned a few posts up ,if the public systems capabilities exceed those of the private operations why would one even pay for the service from a private clinic. They would not make a profit and therefor close up shop. Allowing both to function takes the strain off the public system for a while.

Most Canadians want a solid and properly functioning publicly funded health care system and I feel that is the way it should be, but at this point we are having growing pain problems so lets take the more open path until it comes around. We are NOT saying that it ALL has to be private forever and I for one would not want to see it function like the predatory American system............

 

[Derry McKinney]

RE: Where Conservative Po

Opening it up to the private sector also leaves us open to lawsuits under Chapter 11 of NAFTA. The large US healthcare providers and insurance companies could very easily try to push us into a US-style system if we open our present system up.

It's very similar to their attempts to force us to export bulk water because of bottled water exports. As soon as we make health care a commodity, it is fair game under NAFTA.

 

[I think not]

37% of the US style system is publicly funded by the way for those who can't afford it. It is already a mix and it still doesn't work.

 

[Knightman]

Re: RE: Where Conservative Po

Opening it up to the private sector also leaves us open to lawsuits under Chapter 11 of NAFTA. The large US healthcare providers and insurance companies could very easily try to push us into a US-style system if we open our present system up.

It's very similar to their attempts to force us to export bulk water because of bottled water exports. As soon as we make health care a commodity, it is fair game under NAFTA.

Unfortunatly NAFTA (Now America is Free to Take All) is a terrible and very one sided agreement in its application. It has turned out to be nothing more than a sell out and a method of opening the flood gates to American greed. NAFTA needs to be revoked. It is not working for Mexico, they can in no way compete under it and the U.S. simply wants access to Canadas massive resource base with little or no extra cost to themselves.

We should be able to operate our country any way we want without the U.S. having any say in it.

In terms of our health care system it is functioning as it is right now and will get better as we fine pinpoint problems and set about to fine tune it, the use of private clinics is just a means to an end..........

 

[Knightman]

37% of the US style system is publicly funded by the way for those who can't afford it. It is already a mix and it still doesn't work.

Our health care is working, it is not perfect by any stretch but it is functioning and people are being looked after. Our goal now is to bring it all the way around to a solid and reliable system. We know it will take more money, more workers and more equippment but it will come because we want it to work. Allowing private clinics may just take the strain off enough to facilitate that turn around. having them opperate allows more employment in the medical fields, somthing we need to have happen and we need this all to happen here, in Canada..............

 

[Derry McKinney]

RE: Where Conservative Po

It has to be tied to a lot of things though, Knightman.

Much of our shortage in the medical professions is because we quit training people. That's an education issue.

We've all heard about doctors who immigrated here being stuck driving cabs because their credentials aren't recognized. Some of that is our immigration policy, but there has also been opposition to licensing them from medical associations. Those associations are pushing for higher pay by trying to keep the shortage going.

The cuts and the policies that got us into the problems we are presently in go back to the Mulroney government. They continue through the Liberal government. Now that money is being put into the system again, things are improving though. It is going to take time...20 years of damage does not get repaired over night...but our basic system is sound. It does not require changing.

 

[bluealberta]

Pea, this is not an attack on the Rev, I was using him as an example in this case, because he has made it very clear he is against any public input into the health care system.

bluealberta ... it's personal again. Your views are welcome, your references to any particular person are not. As a courtesy, I approached you outside the forum about this issue, yet you still insist on singling out people in your posts.

Your politics are not at issue. Your approach is. The Rev has not even posted for a few days, yet you still continue to pick at him. Kinda like being nibbled to death by ducks ... no wonder Rev got upset. Your reference was double edged, aimed at both Rev and Pea. I do hope Andem takes this up with you and, if you continue, gives you an invitation to the world (nice way of saying bans you).

To pretend the issue is about left/right wing politics doesn't fly. It's about personal attacks. Your behaviour is in question, not your beliefs. I have made every effort to pour oil on troubled waters but have run out of options to convince you not to goad people. Just smarten up, will ya???? Play nice or take your keyboard and go away.

Take it however you want. My comments were not to goad anyone, I was simply using a posters prefious comments as an example of an attitude I was trying to highlight. Sorry you don't like it, could care less, there are other more interesting forums to be on, so if you want to ban me go ahead. I will just join all the other banned posters from this site on another site where a free exchange of ideas is welcomed. When you get all the same minded people on this forum I hope you are happy, and look up the words to Kumbaya. Adios.

 

[Derry McKinney]

RE: Where Conservative Po

Back to the thread title. I heard on the news that the Klein government still has no plans to twin the highway where that semi hit the bus. They say it isn't cost-effective.

That seems kind of silly because the Alberta government has a lot of money and people are getting killed because the highway is dangerous.

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: Where Conservative Po

Back to the thread title. I heard on the news that the Klein government still has no plans to twin the highway where that semi hit the bus. They say it isn't cost-effective.

That seems kind of silly because the Alberta government has a lot of money and people are getting killed because the highway is dangerous.

This tragic accident occured because a bus tried to turn around in the middle of the night and got stuck. Don't make it any more than what it is or isn't.

 

[Derry McKinney]

RE: Where Conservative Po

It was trying to turn around because the road was blocked by another incident further up the road.

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: Where Conservative Po

It was trying to turn around because the road was blocked by another incident further up the road.

Yes, I know. So? Unfortunately, accidents happen, some tragically more serious than others. It is bad form to blame the government, though, for an accident. Every potential incident cannot be anticipated. In a perfect world, all roads would be twinned, but as we know, this is far from a perfect world.

 

[Derry McKinney]

RE: Where Conservative Po

i'm not blaming the government for the accident. I am blaming them for not taking logical steps to avoid more accidents in the future.

The Klein government has issued a statement saying that they will not twin the highway because it is not cost-efficient. By all accounts, crashes are common on that stretch of highway. Whether or not the traffic count justifies it, there is obviously a problem there and it is killing people.

Now that the problem has been brought to light, why is the Alberta government refusing to deal with it? Why are they putting money, which they are rolling in by most accounts, ahead of human lives?

 

[bluealberta]

Re: RE: Where Conservative Po

i'm not blaming the government for the accident. I am blaming them for not taking logical steps to avoid more accidents in the future.

The Klein government has issued a statement saying that they will not twin the highway because it is not cost-efficient. By all accounts, crashes are common on that stretch of highway. Whether or not the traffic count justifies it, there is obviously a problem there and it is killing people.

Now that the problem has been brought to light, why is the Alberta government refusing to deal with it? Why are they putting money, which they are rolling in by most accounts, ahead of human lives?

The accident happened, what, two days ago? Geez, give them time, maybe they will do something. Quite frankly, I am not from the area, so I don't know if the highway is dangerous or not, but I am from southern Alberta and there is a stretch between Fort Macleod and the Crowsnest Pass that gets its share of accidents, but I don't hear a huge outcry to do something, and I have not heard a huge outcry about this stretch either. Anyway, lets see what happens, and whether there is a demand for something to be done. But lets not use these tragic deaths in a political sense.

 

[Derry McKinney]

maybe they will do something.

They did do something. They issued a statement saying that the traffic count wasn't high enough so it wouldn't be cost-efficient to twin the highway. They are putting money before people, just like always. That is their political stance, Blue.[/quote]