What do you think of the Green Party?

[Reverend Blair]

RE: What do you think of

Hank, the Green Party of Canada is led by a former Progressive Conservative. Their policies are quite corporate-oriented and right-leaning although they do favour environmentally friendly solutions.

A word of advice, my friend. Before you go suggesting that others look "like uneducated fools," you should take the time educate yourself, lest you look the same way.

 

[Can Man]

I actually had Adrianne Carr as teacher at Langara College. I hated her then and not much has changed. (Yes she failed me) I swear the BC Liberals fund the Green party just to split the left.

 

[CamTheCat]

RE: What do you think of

Well, at least people have opinions about the party.

I have read their 'living platform' and I can see how, although environmentaly friendly, and promoting other liberal, socialist ideas, they also have a platform to support the economy, through 'true cost economics', and other ways.

I still think that voting for the Green Party isn't idealist. Some people have given up on a socialist gov't based on the iberals bad track record, but the Greens have really got it together. All we have to do is look to the south to see a perfect example of capitalism at it's worst.

That said, I do agree that the green politicians should dress more appropriate. I think when you get to the higher levels of the party they wear suits. (this seems like such a secondary topic, since the partys focuss is on environmentalims, and they're wearing appropriate attire to speak to that crowd anyways). I guess, when in rome/parliament...

Any more thoughts on the right vs left ideas of this party?

Cameron

 

[Nascar_James]

Re: RE: What do you think of

Ooops ... double post

 

[Nascar_James]

Re: RE: What do you think of

Well, at least people have opinions about the party.

All we have to do is look to the south to see a perfect example of capitalism at it's worst.

Cameron

Cameron, yes we do have capitalism here in the US, however, our system works. Compare the unemployment rates between the US and Canada and you will see a difference. The Canadian unemployment rate is always higher. To make matters worst, taxes are also higher in Canada. Here we don't believe in taxing the hard working folks to pay for those who do not want to work.

The bottom line for any hard working citizen is always $$$, no matter how you look at it.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: What do you think of

The difference in the jobless rate is questionable, James. We use different criteria for measuring unemployment.

The taxation issue is just silly, really. Your states tend to make up for low federal taxes. If you include programs that are paid for through taxation in Canada, such al health care, you find that Americans pay more per capita.

A few months ago, General Motors actually cited Canada's health care system as one of the reasons they put money into facilities here while they were laying off people in the US.

We pay our taxes to the government, you pay yours to corporations.

 

[Nascar_James]

Taxwise, there is a huuuge difference Rev. Don't deny it. When I was living in Quebec, I was literally paying 50% of my income to both Federal and Provincial governments combined. I sometimes went over the 50% mark. It was ridiculous. Here, with the Federal and State taxes I only pay about 30% of my income in taxes. Unlike Canada we have a tax cap here.

Even though I pay for private insurance to insure my family, overall I still come out way ahead. Plus, here we don't wait 3 hours in an emergency room to stitch up a simple hunting knife cut.

In addition, there is another advantage here. For folks who have a mortgage on their homes, they can claim the interest as tax deductions (based on their tax rate). That is why home ownership is higher here than in Canada.

 

[Gonzo]

I know they wont gain power, but I voted for the green party in the hopes they may have gained a seat. Couldn't hurt.

 

[zenfisher]

I don't know about Quebec Nascar..but when I lived in Manitoba...they took a third of my cheque. It went to the government, who occaisionally build a road, fix a road build a sidewalk, etc.

Here In Washington guess what they take a third of my cheque, but, of that... 30% heads of to the government and 70% goes off to pay for healthcare and pension... that's fine...except I know that 70% isn't going back into the community directly( the majority of that is health ). In the long run, I get more from the Canadian Taxation system.

 

[CamTheCat]

Re: RE: What do you think of

They're basically PCs with an environmental plan, Ten Packs. The Green platform is as viable as any centrist party.

Yes it is a viable party. This has been proven in Europe by Germany and other countries.

They are not 'basically' conservative, although they do have many stances that are similar and they are fiscally conservative.

This party is a bit of an enigma, but they'll become clearer as they grow, and this is happening very quickly.

L8R

 

[Mad_Hatter]

The waiting list problem in Canada is very much over-stated by American and other critics. There are a good many commentators who base claims regarding the limited technology affecting wait times by reference to the "number of units available for certain porcedures, rather than the number of procedures actually performed."
While I agree, there are definite issues with Canadian health care; they cannot compare with issues plaguing the American system. While America is making progress with programs like medicare and medicaid the fact remains that 18-20% have no coverage at all.
Nascar, you mentionned spending and tax dollars which go towards health care. Well, in terms of government spending on health care you're correct. Canada spends far more than the US. However, if you look at some numbers regarding the total GDP you'll find that the US actually spends more than Canada on health care.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: What do you think of

The same with personal per capita costs, Mad Hatter. The US has the most expensive system on the planet. Even with all of that spending they have a lower life expectancy and a higher rate of infant deaths.

 

[Nascar_James]

Re: RE: What do you think of the Green Party?

The waiting list problem in Canada is very much over-stated by American and other critics. There are a good many commentators who base claims regarding the limited technology affecting wait times by reference to the "number of units available for certain porcedures, rather than the number of procedures actually performed."

It is not an issue of technology, but for the most part an issue of inefficiency, Mad_hatter. About a decade and a half ago, I recall going to a Montreal emergency room to stitch up a cut that I had sustained with my hunting knife. Soon as I got to the hospital they bandaged up the arm to stop the bleeding, however I then proceeeded to wait 3 hours and still no one called me. I then got up and told them that I was wasting my time and was prepared to leave and would just let the cut heal without stitching it up. I was immediately sent to an empty room where I was promptly treated. Why did they not do this sooner? INEFFICIENCY, that's why!

I cannot beleive that so much tax money is going into healthcare in Canada and yet they have these serious waiting problems in the emergency rooms. It is unacceptable.

I prefer the US approach where I am treated on the spot as soon as I enter an emergency room, no 3 hour waits. The money it costs for private insurance here is still far far less than the extra taxes I was paying in Canada. Extra taxes for an inefficient system, and 3 hour waits....no thanks, I'll keep my current system.

Nascar, you mentionned spending and tax dollars which go towards health care. Well, in terms of government spending on health care you're correct. Canada spends far more than the US. However, if you look at some numbers regarding the total GDP you'll find that the US actually spends more than Canada on health care.

I doubt the US spends more on health care, overall. If the US actually did spend more on heath care than does Canada, how do you justify for the higher taxes in Canada?

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: What do you think of

Your perception of what you pay for health care doesn't match the reality, James. Americans pay far more for health care.

Your hunting knife story is more or less irrelevant too. Emergency rooms use a triage system. Obviously the cut wasn't bad or they would have gotten you in sooner and you wouldn't have threatened to leave.

Since you have no idea what else was going on in the ER, you cannot possibly know if there was inefficency or not. They could have had perfectly valid reasons, like other patients in more serious conditions. They may have been making you wait because they didn't want you leaving still half-pissed and returning to another knife juggling experiment.

We have no way of knowing.

 

[Mad_Hatter]

It is not an issue of technology, but for the most part an issue of inefficiency, Mad_hatter.

I would need to at least half agree with you here. The waiting list problem could probably be improved or at least circumvented somewhat with better organization and communication between health care facilities. Still, I believe this problem is not nearly as bad as our critics claim.

I doubt the US spends more on health care, overall.

Well then, allow me to dig up some numbers for you. From the CBC (http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/healthcare/priceofcare.html)
Canada spends 10% of their total GDP on health care.
America spends 14.6% of their total GDP on health care.

Just for fun, I'll throw in some numbers from a few other countries:
France... 9.7%
Germany... 10.9%
Denmark... 8.8%
Sweden... 9.2%

As you can see, it's clear that the United States spends far more on health care. Now let's look at the return for both countries. A simple glance into some stats provided by the UN are rather telling. http://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/products/socind/health.htm

For Canada, life expectancy at birth is 77.3 years for a male and 82.4 years for a female.
compared with US figures where life expectancy is 74.6 for a male and 80 for a female.

Similarly with infant mortality rate. Canada's is 5 (I believe per 1000?) and the United states is 7. In terms of child mortality rate Canada is 0.3 for males and 0.2 for females. The US has similar, but still higher numbers at 0.4 for males and 0.3 for females.

Now, if one were to examine figures from some European or even Asian countres (take China for example) it is made clear that Canada still has a long way to go in terms of improving their health care system. However, it is most obvious that compared with the American model we are way ahead.

PS - I'm not sure if a mod wants to split this topic into one solely devoted to health care (perhaps private vs. public systems) as it seems to have run way off track from the original Green Party debate.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: What do you think of

A lot of solutions for the inefficiencies in the Canadian health-care system are addressed in the Romanow Report, by the way. Many of those solutions actually save money over the way we currently do things as well.

 

[Reverend Blair]

An article that tells the truth about taxation in Canada.

When all taxes are considered, Canadians at all income levels — whether $10,000, $100,000 or $1,000,000 — pay between 30 and 35 per cent of their incomes in tax. Canadians already have a flat tax system.

 

[CamTheCat]

RE: What do you think of

The Green Party platform includes this...
"shift taxes from income to resource use- increases employment and reduces environmental impact. More tax breaks on the lowest-income Canadians, no tax break for corporate capital gains. Taxes on land use. Tax breaks to environmental innovators and other social considerations i.e.. onsite childcare."

So, I'm not as concerned about whether or not they're described as 'green conservatives' or 'blue conservationists', as I am about the fact that environmental sustainability is at the top of their platform (and they'll lower my taxes too).

I think that conservatives who aren't afraid to lower their guns will be able to see the party for what it is, and I know the conservatives here in Alberta are wondering how to swing extra green votes.

L8R