US screwing around in Venezuela?

[jimmoyer]

No election is without fraud and mistakes.

Of all the schemes to avoid the problems in every election, only one stands out and makes all issues moot, and that is when the winner wins by enough of a margin to safely and statistically conclude that the mistakes and fraud are not near enough to change the results.

In the 2000 election my mom was ready to deposit her punch card vote in a box and noticed that she mistakenly received two punch cards.

The electoral officials were kind enough to let her redo it right without her having to go to the back of the line and wait to vote accurately.

 

[mrmom2]

Do you know who owns the voting machines Jim?Former CIA people ,convicted felons running some of the companys 8O Its like letting the fox gaurd the hen house 8O

 

[Reverend Blair]

We don't know truly if that democracy is legitimate until we see another election there.

Chavez has already won two elections. When the US backed a coup against him, the Venezuelan people rose up to reinstate him.

Once again America mucked it up down there, but watch the new Fidel of Latin America rise.

Ah, red-baiting and fear-mongering. Senator McCarthy would be so proud...

 

[jimmoyer]

Yes that is true, but that second election so fouled by American skullduggery and the militant threatening passion of Chavez, should be enough for you to consider there are no angels in Angel Falls.

And your hypocrisy of saying this is red-baiting and fear-mongering makes you no better than those who attack you for daring to criticize Bush.

 

[Reverend Blair]

Yes that is true, but that second election so fouled by American skullduggery and the militant threatening passion of Chavez, should be enough for you to consider there are no angels in Angel Falls.

He won the second election because of the massive amount of poor people who came out to support him. They were there because for the time ever they have schools, medical care, and even some roads. Hell, some of them even have jobs.

And your hypocrisy of saying this is red-baiting and fear-mongering makes you no better than those who attack you for daring to criticize Bush.

Just returning the favour. :wink:

 

[jimmoyer]

LOL.

 

[YankinCanada]

Truth is Venazeula exports 90% of its oil to the USA. Because we have the only oil refineries outside of Venezuela that can refine their oil. You should not bite the hand that feeds you. Woops I am taliking to Canadians...... sorry

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: US screwing around in

The truth is that Venezuela could export to China or the EU. It is them that's feeding you.

 

[Said1]

Re: RE: US screwing around in

The truth is that Venezuela could export to China or the EU. It is them that's feeding you.

OMG, I think I'm about to agree with you! Truth is, it looks like they might go that way too. These new world order alliences are getting might scary. :wink:

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: US screwing around in

Very complicated.

 

[jimmoyer]

Your view should also embrace complications about Chavez, and not a knee-jerk embrace of any David who stands up to the American Goliath.

The problem with that kind of automatic approval of a Chavez is to ignore anything that is wrong with him, and whether his campaign had enough chutzpah and propaganda to even hoodwink the good and intellectual Reverend Blair.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: US screwing around in

I don't that Chavez is "any David", as you put it. He has done what he said he was going to do when he ran for President. He has helped the poor not just of his country, but of all countries.

There is a danger that if Washington pushes too hard, especially with their political dirty tricks, that Chavez will back away from democracy. His leadership has been instrumental in several democratic socialists coming to power in South America though. That can fall the other way as well. If Venezuela is pushed into totalitarianism several other nations will follow.

If Washington leaves Chavez alone he will stay democratic. His strength comes from the Venezuelan people and they will tolerate nothing less.

 

[jimmoyer]

You may be right, Rev Blair.

But you have a lot of assumptions which predicate any evil Chavez does is only because of American skullduggery.

He might find America to be a convenient bogey man to consolidate power while he hoodwinks you with the belief that the poor no longer exist in Venezuela.

I find your skepticism of American actions well-founded but I am continally amazed by your gullibility, your willingness to drop skepticism elsewhere.

If Washington leaves Chavez alone he will stay democratic?

I have nowhere near the confidence you have.

Your skepticism is inconsistent and highly selective to match your belief system.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: US screwing around in

The CIA was almost certainly involved in the coup attempt. There is no doubt at all that Bush eagerly and prematurely recognized the dictatorship that seized power for only a few short hours. There is absolutely no doubt that there was massive amounts of American money pumped into the political campaigns against Chavez. There is no doubt that the rhetoric from White House has been overwhelming negative.

You want to know why? A 30% tax on oil...up from 16%. A 30% royalty on that oil too. Oh, and here's the kicker...Venezuela gets a 51% share in all oil ventures in their country. Bush is pissed off because his corporate pals aren't getting as rich as they'd like.

So what if the money is paying for doctors and teachers?

 

[jimmoyer]

I read the news about it too.

Long before that effort, Chavez was broadcasting his intentions to use Amerika as his bogey man to consolidate his grab for power of the oil.

Then our leaders thought to protect American interest in access to that oil, knowing that this deadly ink can kill an economy and affect millions of people.

This is power struggle at its ugliest.

There is always a moment when all leaders must sit it out and wait for their nation to be mugged or hurt.

Most with power cannot do it.

You will see your own country whore for the Chinese promise.

You have seen the Europeans prostitute itself for Saddam contracts during the whole period of mythical containment.

America's hands should have stayed out.

No doubt about that.

But in the high dark stratosphere of world leaders, they look at the macro effect to their national economy and the numbers are so large that would affect so many of their own people that moral clarity is only left for those such as you who have no clue what alternatives countries must face when they must morally do nothing.

Technology to wean ourselves from oil would help, but no country (NO COUNTRY) is anywhere near oil independence.

But that is a myth on a macro-economic level too.

I still support your condemnation, but when you look at the poor and middle class in your own cities, you have no idea how other countries can and will hold your people hostage, and then what clarity of morality can your leader say to you?

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: US screwing around in

Venezuela is oil independent. Canada could be if it didn't export to the US. Much of the Middle East is oil independent.

 

[jimmoyer]

You got a mind like a steel trap.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: US screwing around in

You present fallacies, I point them out.

 

[Leveller]

I read an article last year about how Chavez wanted to provide health care services to the poor. The medical professional association in Venezuala would not cooperate with him, so he staffed the new medical clinics in the poor neighbourhoods with Cuban doctors, nicely circumnavigating the medical profession. Cuba apparently trains lots of doctors and supplies the equivalent of billions of dollars in foreign aid each year through training doctors for poor countries. I think what the US doesn't like about all this is that these countries are making their own arrangements to solve various problems and make progress, thereby demonstrating that no one needs US "help". Go Chavez, go!

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: US screwing around in

Yeah, Chavez pays for all of that with oil...which Cuba desperately needs. That drives the old cold warriors scooters.