UNMITIGATED G R E E D! RAH! RAH! RAH!

Bushanti

New Member
Jun 25, 2004
29
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1
Fraser Valley, British Columbia
For those of you who persist in believing that capitalism is a humane system and that we need more of the same, do please read the link provided below. What I expect will happen is that those of you who lean to the left (not to be mistaken with being a Liberal or a Democrat--but rather a Humanist) will read the article in its entirety.

Those who lean to the right (and here you most definitely can insert Republican, Conservative, and for that matter, even those of the Democratic/Liberal persuasion) may exert themselves by reading to the end of the snippet I've posted--nah, they won't even get that far.

Still, for those who would like to challenge themselves, go for the gusto--read the whole bloody thing--and then by all means, give us a rebuttal.

I'm sure Humanists on this Board would just love to read what you have to say. But I caution the empathetics among us not to hold our collective breaths.




http://www.g-r-e-e-d.com/GREED.htm

G R E E D!!

"An essay concerning the origins, nature, extent and morality of this destructive force in free market economies. Definitions. Paradoxes and omissions in Adam Smith's original theory permit - encourage - greed without restraint so that in a very large society over two centuries it has become an undemocratic force creating precipitous inequalities; divisions in this society now approach a kind of wealth apartheid, and our values are quite unlike Smith's: this is an immensely wealthy society but it is not a humane society. Wealth and poverty are connected, in fact recent sociological theory shows our institutions routinely design inequality in, but this connection is largely avoided in texts and in the media, as is the notion that greed is a moral wrong. Problems created by greed cannot be solved by technology. We are also distracted by already-outdated environmental rhetoric, arguments that scarcities and human suffering follow from abuse of our ecology. Rather, these scarcities are the result of what people do to people. This focus opens practical solutions.

Sign the tab in certain Midtown eateries and your neighbors’ eyes slide over. Is that a $48,000 Michel Perchin pen? What’s on your wrist – a $300,000 Breguet watch?

In Palm Springs and Bel Air, $100,000 twin-turbo Porsches and $225,000 Ferraris buzz the warm streets. In New York at an exclusive Morell & Company auction last May, a single magnum of Dom Perignon champagne was sold for $5,750. And there are the paintings of course - one evening at auction two Monets sold for $43 million (2). Hotel rooms, anyone, at $10,000 a night? Estate agents in suburbs of Dallas and Palm Beach have advertised baronial homes for sale at over $40 million dollars (3).

These are prices paid by the exceptionally wealthy, the folks who skim the pages of the Robb Report (average annual salary of subscribers: $1.2 million) in whose glossy pages are reviewed the best of everything. In a recent issue a southern plantation is advertised, "everybody's dream," at $8.5 million.

Robert Reich points out that the superrich live in a parallel universe to the rest of the country: much of the time we don’t see them because they live in walled estates, travel in private limousines and use different airports from the rest of us (4). There’s lots of them. There are now more than 200 billionaires. Some five percent of American households have assets over $1 million. And we’re back to levels of extravagant consumption not seen for 100 years (5).

By historical accounts this is a nation of persistent and resilient people with an unshakable mission: the pursuit of happiness. This idea of happiness is largely connected with wealth (and this connection has long philosophic roots). It is a nation of ambitious people with notions of unfettered future growth, a nation that celebrates abundance. There seems to be no reason anyone should be deprived of luxury, if he works hard. Indeed with this country’s aggregate wealth, there should be no reason anyone should ever go hungry or suffer.

People are going hungry in America. A Los Angeles survey found more than a quarter of low income residents, many working, are not getting enough food to meet basic nutritional needs. And 10% are experiencing hunger.(6).

Estimates are that 3 out of 10 Americans will face poverty sometime in their lives (7).

Misery is a word seldom applied to the contemporary scene. Like wretchedness it seems antique, an Old World term. But many Americans live in cold, dank slums; many do not earn enough for shelter, many sleep in alleys. In America’s inner cities and at its lowest levels, under freeway bridges and in tubercular alleys, in stained and broken rooming houses and in torn-apart schools, misery exists and persists. All our largest cities contain neighborhoods where some people live day to day in broken buildings in apartments that could be mistaken for closets, some fearing to leave home on gang-terrorized streets, some sharing bus seats with people with drug-scarred arms. Every great metropolis has its skid row mired in fecal gutters, where whole blocks are awash in narcotics and violence, its inhabitants despised and flatly abandoned.

America is once again a nation of extremes............"

No, no, no - don't stop now; read on; indulge yourselves; get greedy for some insight.
 

Bushanti

New Member
Jun 25, 2004
29
0
1
Fraser Valley, British Columbia
No takers? Interesting

Don't no one on this esteemed board have an opinion? I really didn't expect much if anything from the right--but I truly believed that the thinking left would have glommed on to this one.

I tried to poke holes in the guy's argument--but couldn't. Guess you would agree the guy has a slam dunk.
 

researchok

Council Member
Jun 12, 2004
1,103
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36
Re: No takers? Interesting

Bushanti said:
Don't no one on this esteemed board have an opinion? I really didn't expect much if anything from the right--but I truly believed that the thinking left would have glommed on to this one.

I tried to poke holes in the guy's argument--but couldn't. Guess you would agree the guy has a slam dunk.

I agree--he sgot some points.

Ive got to hit the sack soon, but I will respond tomorrow.

It is a good article, though. Lots of food for thought.
 

Paco

Electoral Member
Jul 6, 2004
172
0
16
7000 ft. asl and on full auto
I suffered through about half of it.

The essay makes a lot of points, most of it subjective and lacks much in the way of fact.

Any one thing in the essay you wish to expound on?

I did notice the essay is titled “Greed” and tends to discuss greed in a capitalistic society, where your introduction translated that into capitalism itself being evil.

So, do you wish to discuss the evils of capitalism or the evils of greed?
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
The essay makes a lot of points, most of it subjective and lacks much in the way of fact.

69 points in the bibliography at the end and there are few facts? Since the essay is really about the human and societal condition, and the references include many studies, I'd say there are many facts.

It's an excellent essay, Bushanti. I'm about to send the link to a couple of aquaintances who are interested in such things. Thanks.
 

researchok

Council Member
Jun 12, 2004
1,103
0
36
It is a good essay, I agree.

The question to me is a very simple one.

Should capitalism be dismissed because of what are excesses at times?

Do not the efforts and choices made by individuals count for something that they can accrue?

Even socialist governments struggle with those same questions. Socialist Europe has suffered a brain drain and taxation has become a real issue. Interestingly, even the socialist models are capitalist in nature-- though admittedly, more highly regulated.

Think evolution, not necessarily revolution.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
Socialism doesn't stand completely against capitalism though...just against unfettered capitalism as a political expression and the inherent disparities that carries with it. It also doesn't keep people from gaining wealth, just spreads that wealth more evenly.

Interestingly enough, the more I look at the actions of modern mega-corporations the more it looks to me like they are fulfilling Karl Marx's prediction that true communism would evolve only when the corporations became concentrated and controlled government at which point the people would rise up.

I'm not a Marxist. I don't want to live in that society and I don't agree with everything he said. I certainly don't want to go through the violence of a revolution...I'm too old for that crap. As things become more concentrated are we seeing the beginnings of an uprising though? We've seen massive protests (Seattle, Quebec etc) against the power of the corporations. Those died down after 9-11, but the Campesino forums in Cancun were more diverse than ever, drawing from not just the anti-globalisation movement, but family farm groups from the heart of the Republican-supporting US states. The meeting in Miami saw cops raiding church basements as religious groups began forming groups that were speaking out against the path globalisation was taking.


This could be just another false start...much like the protests and communes of the 1960s...but it could also be the beginnings of a very real class war. The joke is that most of the protesters have benefited massively from the current system which is what allows them the time and money to go to the protests.

I'm not looking forward to what happens next, and I hope I'm wrong, but it seems to me that it is the corporations that are driving it through their actions.
 

researchok

Council Member
Jun 12, 2004
1,103
0
36
The class war remarks you made are most interesting to me.

It is no longer access to money that is the primary factor in the divide. I think that access to technology also comes into play. That manifests itself in ways outside the 'norm'-- in that now, education has become an even higher priority, for a multitude of reasons.

That spell trouble for the left, inasmuch as in the states, they have coopted education. One way or the other, theyre going have to produce a better 'product'.

I can say I do agree with you re the corporate world. Building baseball diamonds and sports facilities for kids and after school programs are nice-- but theyve used that goodwill up, as theyve failed to address real needs.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
I don't really see it as a class war...at least not in the sense that most people mean. You don't see a lot of poor or even working class people at these demonstrations. That in itself is likely an off-shoot of technology because the protest movement largely communicates through the internet.

The education aspect is interesting. In know a teacher at an inner city school here. They get the oldest books, the fewest computers, the least of everything. They also have to deal with the fallout from social problems...booze and drugs and prostitution and gangs...as part of their teaching day. The dropout rate is insanely high and hardly anybody goes on to post-secondary education.

How does anybody produce a better product under those circumstances? And that's in a system that appears to be in far better shape than the US system, or even than in other large Canadian cities.
 

researchok

Council Member
Jun 12, 2004
1,103
0
36
I think down here, there are similarities but also differences.

There has been a huge influx of money into poor school systems-- yet test scores are still low.

Strangely, the big fight here now is teacher competency tests-- teachers unions are dead set against it.

In the meantime, kids are still getting shortchanged.

Money it seems, can't cure all.
 

Paco

Electoral Member
Jul 6, 2004
172
0
16
7000 ft. asl and on full auto
Reverend Blair said:
The essay makes a lot of points, most of it subjective and lacks much in the way of fact.

69 points in the bibliography at the end and there are few facts? Since the essay is really about the human and societal condition, and the references include many studies, I'd say there are many facts.

It's an excellent essay, Bushanti. I'm about to send the link to a couple of aquaintances who are interested in such things. Thanks.

Studies? I didn't study the bibliography, but it looks like references to other subjective opinion, not factual study.

Greed knows no bounds. Not in capitalism, socialism or dictatorships. There will always be the haves and have nots.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
1,238
1
38
Winnipeg
Perhaps you should study the bibliography before commenting on the validity of what is being said. Plenty of scientific studies and articles by experts in there. Just because you don't agree with something does not render it into opinion, Paco.

You on the other hand have not presented a single fact to back up your dismissal of the article. You did take the time to admit that you only "suffered" through about half of it though. Did all those facts bore you or something?