Ujjal Dosanjh is a fool (Could be offensive to Liberals)

Mogz

Council Member
Jan 26, 2006
1,254
1
38
Edmonton
PUBLICATION: The Ottawa Citizen
DATE: 2006.05.30
EDITION: Final
SECTION: News
PAGE: A5
BYLINE: David Pugliese
SOURCE: The Ottawa Citizen
WORD COUNT: 346

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Liberal slams giving U.S. firm $2B plane deal: Sending military business south bad for Forces, taxpayers, Dosanjh says

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Awarding a multibillion-dollar contract for military cargo planes directly to a U.S. firm is not in the best interest of taxpayers or the Canadian Forces, warn Liberal defence critic Ujjal Dosanjh and the head of a European aerospace company.

Mr. Dosanjh said directing a $2-billion deal to one particular company would not ensure Canadian firms receive support contracts or other industrial regional benefits that usually accompany such projects. Similar concerns were echoed by an official with the European aircraft firm, EADS, in response to reports the Conservatives will purchase between four and six transport planes from the U.S.-based Boeing.

Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor will explain to a cabinet committee today the details about his proposal to move forward with $8 billion in new equipment purchases for the Forces.

Yesterday, the National Post reported Mr. O'Connor is proposing awarding a contract valued at $2 billion to Boeing for a fleet of its C-17 cargo jets. Cabinet will also be asked to OK the purchase of tactical transport planes to replace the military's aging Hercules fleet. New search-and-rescue planes, army trucks and a fleet of supply ships are also on the list.

Mr. Dosanjh sought assurances that Canadian firms would be awarded maintenance contracts for any new planes. "For reasons of security and sovereignty and to maximize the regional industrial benefits for Canadian industry, previous governments invoked national security exceptions to ensure that maintenance contracts for all our air fleets were handled by Canadian companies," said Mr. Dosanjh.

Bruce Johnston, president of EADS Canada, the firm hoping to offer the European-built A400M transport plane to the Canadian Forces, said he has not received any indication the Conservatives have done away with competition in favour of a plan to directly buy the C-17.

But he said if that were the case, it would fly in the face of assurances by Mr. O'Connor that the government is committed to a fair and open competition. The Canadian Forces, as well as taxpayers, would be better served if there was a competition, he added.

My issues with this idiot:

Dosanjh is a typical Liberal when it comes to defence. He wants to keep everything in Canada, or at best NOT make a deal that leaves Canadian industry out of the loop. The sad fact is ladies and gentlemen, that the Canadian Defence Industry is minimal at best. We produce a FEW good items from our General Motors of Canada Defence plant in Ontario, and some small arms, but that's really it. We rely heavily on foreign development to arm ourselves. In the mid-90's the Liberals began to adopt this "Canadian made" policy. In that a certain percentage of a piece of equipment MUST be made in Canada. While the intetions were honourable, it led to inferior products. A great example is the Armys Light Support Vehicle Wheeled (LSVW). Anyone that has driven one of these know it's a piece of shit. This vehicle has a top ROAD SPEED of 80km/hr, and has a tendancy to SHED PARTS. This piece of crap even sometimes requires a boost in +20 weather. This sad excuse for an Army vehicle was made in Canada by Western Star. It's based on an Italian design, loosely. In fact, when the LSVW underwent field trials pre-production at CFB Aldershot, it was deemed "utterly unfit for military service". Therefore the minimum standards were slashed, and the vehicle heavily modified in order to keep the contract in Canada. The end result, a slow, lumbering beast, that utterly fails to perform. All in the name of keeping the contract in Canada. It should be pointed out that at the time Canada was trying to procure a new light vehicle, the U.S. Army offered to sell us the plans for the Hmmwv Mk 1 at a heavily reduced cost. We turned it down. Even though the Hummer is by far a better vehicle than the LS is. The primary use of the LS in the Canadian Forces is as a radio detachment. A Hummer could easily be retrofitted to facilitate the TCCCS Radio Suite, and would also offer a radio det better mobility and armor protection. That all said, the LS project is just ONE of the numerous projects given the thumbs up for the sake of promoting national manufacture.

Another great example is the Victoria Class submarines. For those that do not know, the Victoria Class are former Royal Navy Upholder Class diesel/electric coastal patrol submarines. The Royal Navy retired them in the 90's and let them sit at bearth for almost a decade. Canada, after retiring the Oberon Class, needed new subs, so we bought the Upholders, rechristened them, and sailed them back to Canada. Why? Because it'd give work to the Canadian economy. Buy the subs, sail them across the Atlantic and in to Canadian drydocks. Have them utterly refitted to Canadian specs here, and voila, stimulate the economy. The problem was that the Upholders were junk, near rust-out state. In fact one, the Chicoutimi caught on fire during it's Atlantic crossing and killed one sailor. The cause? Poor electrical wiring. Another sub, the Victoria, was doing a test dive last fall when her main ballast tank cracked and began to leak. What's really interesting is this. Whilst Canada was inquiring about the Upholders, the Royal Ministry of Defence offered to sell Canada 4 Trafalgar Class nuclear attack submarines. The catch, they'd be built in The UK. The Trafalgars, for those who do not know, were, up until recently, the Royal Navys premier nuclear attack submarines. They're often deemed the little brothers of the United States' Los Angeles Class. Another interesting thing to point out is the fact that while at first the cost to purchase Trafalgars from the Royal Navy would have been more expensive than buying and retro-fitting the Upholders, we would have saved MILLIONS in diesel costs to operate the Upholders seeing as the Trafalgars are nuclear vessels. However once again the Government stepped in and utterly rejected anything that wasn't going to interact directly with the Canadian economy.

Lastly, with direct regard to the purchase of aircraft. You'd think a "defence critic" would want the best deal for the Canadian Air Force, regardless of whether or not the deal was offered to one company or up for bids. The simple fact ladies and gents is that the C-17A3 Globemaster is by far a better tactical lift aircraft than the A400M Airbus. Some quick Specs:

C-17A3:

Max Payload - 77 Tons (A Canadian Leopard tank is around 55 tons)
Max Range (loaded) - 5,185km (77 tons)
Service Ceiling - 45,000 Ft (normal operations)
Max Speed - 450 knots
Cost - $202.3 million

A400M Airbus:

Max Payload - 37 Tons (A Canadian Leopard tank is around 55 tons)
Max Range (loaded) - 3,148km (37 tons)
Service Ceiling - 37,000 Ft (normal operations)
Max Speed - 300 knots
Cost - $128.6 million

Just a quick frame up (feel free to google it all beaver as I didn't post links just to piss you off). As you can see, the only thing the Airbus beats the Globemaster on is cost. However look at what the cost is costing us (no pun intended). With the airbus we have limited airlift (still can't move our tanks by air), way shorter range, ceiling is lower (but not a big deal), and the airspeed is significantly slower. Should we even be considering the Airbus when there is simply a better aircraft being built and flown by our closest ally? Ujjal Dosanjh thinks so, but I think he's a fool. My 78 cents.
 

Kreskin

Doctor of Thinkology
Feb 23, 2006
21,155
149
63
I don't bother reading or listening to Dosanjh. He's the political equivalent to watching paint dry.
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
43
48
Vancouver, BC
Re: Graham as Critic

To be honest, when it became apparent that the previous Government of Canada was going to resign instead of attempting to meet the new House of Commons after the most recent election, I had thought that The Honourable Bill Graham, P.C., M.P., the Member for Toronto Centre and the Leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, would have made a superb Defense Critic for the Opposition (I continue to think this, and he would be better off assuming a critic's role alongside his responsibilities as interim leader). I thought that the appointment of The Honourable Ujjal Dosanjh, P.C., M.P., the Member for Vancouver South, as the Defense Critic was rather odd. He doesn't seem to have any experience in such matters.
 

Mogz

Council Member
Jan 26, 2006
1,254
1
38
Edmonton
Re: Graham as Critic

FiveParadox said:
To be honest, when it became apparent that the previous Government of Canada was going to resign instead of attempting to meet the new House of Commons after the most recent election, I had thought that The Honourable Bill Graham, P.C., M.P., the Member for Toronto Centre and the Leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, would have made a superb Defense Critic for the Opposition (I continue to think this, and he would be better off assuming a critic's role alongside his responsibilities as interim leader). I thought that the appointment of The Honourable Ujjal Dosanjh, P.C., M.P., the Member for Vancouver South, as the Defense Critic was rather odd. He doesn't seem to have any experience in such matters.

Actually I couldn't agree more. Graham is one of the few Liberals I actually don't mind. He's objective. Rare in a Liberal.
 

bluealberta

Council Member
Apr 19, 2005
2,004
0
36
Proud to be in Alberta
The helicopter issue also comes to mind when considering the Liberals military record. They have no bona fides about this subject at all, and should let the government get on with the job of refitting the military back to a suitable standard. Our troops deserve nothing less, and certainly do not deserve to have their safety become a political football. Thankfully, I think Harper will ignore Dosanjh as he should.
 

FiveParadox

Governor General
Dec 20, 2005
5,875
43
48
Vancouver, BC
The partisanship on these forums is amazing sometimes.

From some members in particular, the concept of any member of the Liberal Party of Canada ever doing, or ever having done something good for Canada, seems to be a non-concept. Let's look to see the good, and the bad, in the parties in our House of Commons, please.

I have sounded off above, in terms of my opinion on this matter.

Mr. Dosanjh doesn't have the experience in the area of defense, in my opinion, to be an effective critic to the Government of Canada. I continue to think that Mr. Graham should move Mr. Dosanjh to an area where he would be more suited, such as health, or intergovernmental affairs.
 

bluealberta

Council Member
Apr 19, 2005
2,004
0
36
Proud to be in Alberta
Re: RE: Ujjal Dosanjh is a fool (Could be offensive to Liber

FiveParadox said:
The partisanship on these forums is amazing sometimes.

From some members in particular, the concept of any member of the Liberal Party of Canada ever doing, or ever having done something good for Canada, seems to be a non-concept. Let's look to see the good, and the bad, in the parties in our House of Commons, please.

I have sounded off above, in terms of my opinion on this matter.

Mr. Dosanjh doesn't have the experience in the area of defense, in my opinion, to be an effective critic to the Government of Canada. I continue to think that Mr. Graham should move Mr. Dosanjh to an area where he would be more suited, such as health, or intergovernmental affairs.

Five, I PROMISE that when the Liberals do some good, I will be the first one to post it. Waiting.....................still waiting.............Oh hell, I'll get back to you on this............................ :wink:
 

nelk

Electoral Member
May 18, 2005
108
0
16
atlantic canada
Why are we in Canada resigned to rely and purchase items needed
outside our boundaries?
What's wrong with the local expertise? not being able to produce
even simple items sounds pretty silly to me.

We ship most of our resources to China and elsewhere.

Wouldn't it be great to retain some and get our engineers and workers occupied and start regaining manufacturing expertise steadily being lost by outsourcing and globalisation.
And I don't blame the Chinese or other foreign companies to offer cheaper goodies to us.
They know in the end they are laughing.
Relying on resource exploitation as an default economy will not work for long.
In terms of R+D, applied engineering ,inventions Canada does not even make the cut.
Why is there no outcry about what is blatantly wrong? :?:
 

Hotshot

Electoral Member
May 31, 2006
330
0
16
Common sense is offensive to Liberals.

People that can think on their own are offensive to Liberals

I think some liberals are offensive to liberals!
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
3
38
Re: RE: Ujjal Dosanjh is a fool (Could be offensive to Liber

bluealberta said:
Five, I PROMISE that when the Liberals do some good, I will be the first one to post it. Waiting.....................still waiting.............Oh hell, I'll get back to you on this............................ :wink:

Don't hold your breath!

 

bluealberta

Council Member
Apr 19, 2005
2,004
0
36
Proud to be in Alberta
Re: RE: Ujjal Dosanjh is a fool (Could be offensive to Liber

Jay said:
bluealberta said:
Five, I PROMISE that when the Liberals do some good, I will be the first one to post it. Waiting.....................still waiting.............Oh hell, I'll get back to you on this............................ :wink:

Don't hold your breath!



Waiting...........................still waiting......................stiiiiiil waiting.....................................
 

Mogz

Council Member
Jan 26, 2006
1,254
1
38
Edmonton
RE: Ujjal Dosanjh is a fo

Answers to questions:

1.

Post by Five

From some members in particular, the concept of any member of the Liberal Party of Canada ever doing, or ever having done something good for Canada, seems to be a non-concept. Let's look to see the good, and the bad, in the parties in our House of Commons, please.

Sure the Liberals did some good, but those acts were overshadowed by the mountains of lies, deceit, and theft from the Canadian people. The chopped up the CF, and whored out our national image to the World. We are now, thanks to the Liberals, seen as a weak nation that will not stand up for itself. The Liberal Government was the worst thing to happen to Canada. Call it parisanship. I call it patriotism. I don't want a Government like that ruling my Country ever again.

2.

Post by nelk

Why are we in Canada resigned to rely and purchase items needed
outside our boundaries?
What's wrong with the local expertise? not being able to produce
even simple items sounds pretty silly to me.

We ship most of our resources to China and elsewhere.

Wouldn't it be great to retain some and get our engineers and workers occupied and start regaining manufacturing expertise steadily being lost by outsourcing and globalisation.
And I don't blame the Chinese or other foreign companies to offer cheaper goodies to us.
They know in the end they are laughing.
Relying on resource exploitation as an default economy will not work for long.
In terms of R+D, applied engineering ,inventions Canada does not even make the cut.
Why is there no outcry about what is blatantly wrong?

We purchase what we need outside of our borders because we lack a well formed defense industry. As I said above we make a few vehicles, small arms, and ammo, that's about it. Yes our clothing and equipment is all Canadian, but the big ticket items, like tanks, planes, ships, are made in other nations and then retrofitted in Canada. The reason no one cares nelk is because no one cares about the Defense of Canada. Our nation has never, since the formation of the Dominion, ever cared about defending what is ours. The public lives in oblivion, secure under a blanket of protection that less than 70,000 men and women provide. The public doesn't care if the helmet I wear is sub-standard, or if the chopper i'm flying in is 40 years old (twice my age). People in this nation just don't care. However they are willing to tart us up and send us out on "peacekeeping" missions and reap the feel good sense of national undertaking. This stigma starts at the average Canadian and goes right up to Parliment Hill. Chretien was a master of whoring out the Forces. The troops were treated like the redheaded step-children of Canada. Crappy vehicles, crappy equipment, poor pay. He refused to spend a dime on us, and the obligation we fullfil. However he never refused an opportunity to parade around his peacekeeping vanguard like we were some freakshow for international enjoyment. You ask why we don't make the stuff we need in this nation? The answer is simple; this nation doesn't think we need the stuff.
 

Jersay

House Member
Dec 1, 2005
4,837
2
38
Independent Palestine
Sure the Liberals did some good, but those acts were overshadowed by the mountains of lies, deceit, and theft from the Canadian people. The chopped up the CF, and whored out our national image to the World. We are now, thanks to the Liberals, seen as a weak nation that will not stand up for itself. The Liberal Government was the worst thing to happen to Canada. Call it parisanship. I call it patriotism. I don't want a Government like that ruling my Country ever again.

I agree with you Mogz. So we will all be happy under a NDP government led by Glorious Jack Layton. :wink:
 

JonB2004

Council Member
Mar 10, 2006
1,188
0
36
RE: Ujjal Dosanjh is a fo

The Liberals did fuck some things up. The Canadian Forces is so weak that I don't even call them an army anymore. I call them a joke. We can thank the Liberals for that. And I don't like the lies and the scandals. But the Liberals did alot of great things for this country that I don't think any other party would be able to do. The Liberals are not the worse thing to ever happen to Canada, they are, in my opinion the best thing, but I think that they could of done better than what they did.

And as for the NDP. I have said in the past that I will never support the NDP, but in the recent weeks, I am beginning to have second thoughts. I'm getting a pretty fed up with our so-called natural governing parties fucking around. I think it might be time for change. Voters gave the Conservatives another chance. While we're out giving people chances, why don't we give one to the NDP. They might be the best thing to happen to Canada.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
201
63
RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
RE: Ujjal Dosanjh is a fo

An NDP government would spend fifty billion in the first year to upgrade our military with every concievable weapon it could possible need to defend this proud nation from capitalist pricks. Before the first month after our election we would begin to buy massive ammounts of former soviet armour and anti-aircraft systems and fighters, and millions of the newest issue Kalishnikovs. Before the second month was over we would have sacked the entire command and officer corp of the Canadian armed forces and replaced them with Cuban and Chinese contract officers to conduct proper anti-imperialist training.And we would institute a draft, this would be run by the Federal dept; of Exercise and Fitness.
We in the NPD are the only party that recognize the need to defend this country from evil-doers. The PND knows that Canada needs a strong defence industry we must be
constantly building tommorrows defence that makes us safe from other stronger defence industrys and the country that they own. The DPN has a five year comprehensive plan for the New Improved Canadian Military. We will transform this weak country that won't stand up for itself into a military power that will be hated and loathed all over the planet just like our nutty neighbours. Won't that be wonderful the Canadian military will finally have the respect it's due.
 

JonB2004

Council Member
Mar 10, 2006
1,188
0
36
Re: RE: Ujjal Dosanjh is a fo

darkbeaver said:
An NDP government would spend fifty billion in the first year to upgrade our military with every concievable weapon it could possible need to defend this proud nation from capitalist pricks. Before the first month after our election we would begin to buy massive ammounts of former soviet armour and anti-aircraft systems and fighters, and millions of the newest issue Kalishnikovs. Before the second month was over we would have sacked the entire command and officer corp of the Canadian armed forces and replaced them with Cuban and Chinese contract officers to conduct proper anti-imperialist training.And we would institute a draft, this would be run by the Federal dept; of Exercise and Fitness.
We in the NPD are the only party that recognize the need to defend this country from evil-doers. The PND knows that Canada needs a strong defence industry we must be
constantly building tommorrows defence that makes us safe from other stronger defence industrys and the country that they own. The DPN has a five year comprehensive plan for the New Improved Canadian Military. We will transform this weak country that won't stand up for itself into a military power that will be hated and loathed all over the planet just like our nutty neighbours. Won't that be wonderful the Canadian military will finally have the respect it's due.

Are you saying that you support the NDP or do you oppose the NDP, darkbeaver?