U.N. offers assistance to Israel

[researchok]

Actually, the numbers don't work in your favor.

Arafat has been credited (!) for up to 250,000 deaths, directly or indirectly, throughout his 'career'.

Hafez Assad had between 20-30 thousand killed in Hama-- and thats just Hama, and thats just Assad.

Hizbollah too, has claomed tens of thousands of lives in the last 20 years.

The list goes on and on.

Assigning the death of soldiers in a war as the fault of any one general on any one side is itself, rather one sided.

 

[moghrabi]

well i see that we stand on the other side of the fence. I am not talking about a general who caused the death of his soldiers. I am talking about his massacres that history will put in history books. If you add them all up, they will be 10 fold the number of people you mentioned above.

 

[American Voice]

May I weigh in here?

First, there was a solution in the works back in the mid 90's; a tri-partite confederation, composed of Israel, Jordan, and a Palestinian entity. It was in large part a Japanese initiative; a Switzerland or Silicon Valley of the Middle East, capitalizing development of advanced R&D and manufacturing, making good use of local resources, viz., Israeli brains, Palestinian brawn, and the educated, well-behaved work force of Jordan. When the catastropic collapse of the real estate market in Hong Kong cascaded round the world like the fallout from Krakatoa, the deal fell through. Raised expectations were thwarted. Got to be a bummer, that.

Second, the peace settlement in Israel-Palestine was sabotaged in Damascus. Who controls the water in Jerusalem, that's the key. The Oslo Accord had settled the matter, but Damascus was not included. Syrian agriculture in Galilee is restricted to a distance and a height on the slope that puts the water table beyond reach. The tyrannical Allawhite (sp.?) tribe in Damascus are, finally, not bulletproof. They can only risk so much discontent. Had they acquiesced to Oslo, their heads would have been up on pikes. Damascus is the spoiler. They instigate mischief in Jerusalem, at the Temple Mount/Dome of the Rock. Islam controls the surface of the mount, but Israel owns everything underneath, down to the center of the Earth. That was what Sharon was asserting when he desecrated the Mosque of Omar. It's all about the God-damned municipal water supply, don't you see?!!

 

[researchok]

well i see that we stand on the other side of the fence. I am not talking about a general who caused the death of his soldiers. I am talking about his massacres that history will put in history books. If you add them all up, they will be 10 fold the number of people you mentioned above.

Well, try to imagine what the Israelis see on the other side of that same fence. Any good reading of the Arab press and media should illustrate the point.

As a matter of fact, AIPAC now uses as it's strongest lobbying point daily translations and transcripts of Arab media-- I know, I'm on their list (don't know why-- just started showing up). These briefings go out daily to all Congressmen, Senators, business people, etc. They are also sent to foreign leaders and government officials around the world. The translations speak for themselves.

As for the history books, look closer to home. The numbers killed by Arab dictators and their regimes far outweigh any comparisons-- not to mention the enormous and tragic waste of the potential and future of Arabs in those countries.

 

[researchok]

May I weigh in here?

First, there was a solution in the works back in the mid 90's; a tri-partite confederation, composed of Israel, Jordan, and a Palestinian entity. It was in large part a Japanese initiative; a Switzerland or Silicon Valley of the Middle East, capitalizing development of advanced R&D and manufacturing, making good use of local resources, viz., Israeli brains, Palestinian brawn, and the educated, well-behaved work force of Jordan. When the catastropic collapse of the real estate market in Hong Kong cascaded round the world like the fallout from Krakatoa, the deal fell through. Raised expectations were thwarted. Got to be a bummer, that.

Second, the peace settlement in Israel-Palestine was sabotaged in Damascus. Who controls the water in Jerusalem, that's the key. The Oslo Accord had settled the matter, but Damascus was not included. Syrian agriculture in Galilee is restricted to a distance and a height on the slope that puts the water table beyond reach. The tyrannical Allawhite (sp.?) tribe in Damascus are, finally, not bulletproof. They can only risk so much discontent. Had they acquiesced to Oslo, their heads would have been up on pikes. Damascus is the spoiler. They instigate mischief in Jerusalem, at the Temple Mount/Dome of the Rock. Islam controls the surface of the mount, but Israel owns everything underneath, down to the center of the Earth. That was what Sharon was asserting when he desecrated the Mosque of Omar. It's all about the God-damned municipal water supply, don't you see?!!

Well, I can't take issue with you on what you say-- water is indeed a pivotal issue-- so you're right on the money there-- but not entirely the only issue.

Interestingly, theres a not often referred to deal with the Jordanians with regard to a massive desalinization project. At the time, the Isrealis, via the Jordanians, offered their techonology and participation on the project as part of an overall peace plan.

It was of course, rejected.

Plus ca change, plus ca reste la meme.

 

[moghrabi]

These dictators that you are mentioning are all approved, financied, and supported by the US to keep it's interest in region. Also, to keep the Arabs fighting against each other and keep the state of Israel at killing more people, confsicating more land, bombing wherever and whenever they like.

Sadam was US favorite for a long time. His was Reagan's buddy. The saudi's and all the gulf states are puppets. Only Assad (who did his own massacres) and Iran stood up to the US and Israel.

We should be talking about the people of the area and their rights and not about the puppets sitting on their thrown. Do you agree that the palastinians have the right to return to their land? Do you agree that Israel is the only occupying force in the world today?

I read the Arab media very closely and I know what happens there. The US want to close Al-Jazeera for saying the truth. Yes, the truth which embaracess the west.

 

[researchok]

Your post makes no sense whatsoever.

That Saddam was once supported by Reagan is meaningless.

So what if we supported him in his war against Iran? What he did afterward was his CHOICE. If I give you a car to go to work and you decide to drive drunk, don't blame me if you run someone over and kill him. You made your choice.

Yes, the US buys oil from the region. So what? Do you think the North Koreans will pick up the slack if and when the US decides to buy more Russian oil or Iranian oil when that regime finally falls?

As for supporting those regimes that you speak of, lets face it. Who shall the US support-- The Al Queda types who want to overthrow them? Do you think the region and the Arabs would be better off with Taliban type regimes in place? Get real!

In point of fact, those autocratic regimes don't need US support to stay in power. They have a long history of killing those that oppose them. That Arabs fight each other has no bearing on the US-- theyve been doing that for centuries.

Palestinians have the same rights as everyone else. As I mentioned earlier, UN resolutions make that clear-- that ALL the refugees have the right to return or compensation-- including those Jews that were booted out of Arab countries, having been there from pre Islamic times. The refugee question has to be settled, I agree-- but that applies to both sides, equally, in the same forum, as specified by UN 338.

As for occupying states, well, Syria is in Lebanon, the Chinese are in Tibet and there is the matter of Spain and France regarding the Basques. There can also be a claim made for the Kurds in Arab countries and Turkey, though that may be less clear.

With the exception of the Syrian occupation of Lebanon, the other 'occupations' have lasted far longer and have been far more vicious.

 

[moghrabi]

Saddam was in fact told to gas the kurds. To stay in power he had to do it. When it all done, they get rid of him. I am not anti-arab or anti-Israel. But you seem to put a twist on facts to get your point across. The US put these regimes to secure the source of oil. They are told to masscare their people who oppse them. This is why we have an almost revolutions and bombings in Saudi Arabia and so on. They learned recently that the US is behind these dectatorial regimes for their own benefit.

Do not tell me abiut giving me a car and I decide to drive it drunk and kill people. The dictator are given the car and told to kill the people.

I like to see the people of the Middle East live side by side. But we have to be honest with ourselves here and not be one sided as you are. You want the best for Israel and the hell with everyone else. Not going to happen, my friend. There will be more bloodshed until the Palastinans get their full right. I mean full. The British took the palastinine land to give to the Jews to clear Europe's image after Hiltler.

What Jews are you talking about that they have a right to return. I have no idea what you are talking about. As a matter of fact, Jews are asked and paid to leave their country ans settle in Israel. The reason is to populate the land and have more excuses for more settlement.

 

[American Voice]

Cacaphony. Jesus wept, and Moses, too. Mohammed joined them.

 

[researchok]

I'll answer your post in reverse order.

The Jews I'm talking about are the 800,000 that were booted out of Arab countries and had their property confiscated. Please see UN resolutions on the regional refugee problems. This is basic stuff.

Also, I did a bit of research regarding Jewish immigration to Israel. As a sovereign state, Israel has the right to set its own immigration policies, just as Poland, Ireland and the UK and a host of other countries have programs to ease immigration for those with of those extractions. Again, basic stuff.

Ok, onwards.

You say, "Saddam was in fact told to gas the kurds." OK, by whom? what is your credible evidence that can back that claim up? Simply making that ridiculous assertion isn't enough to make that assertion credible.

As for dictators 'given the car', I was responding to your point. There is no evidence that I have seen that the US demands dictators 'kill their people'. Any evidence you have to that effect is evidence I'd like to see. If anything, evidence points to dictators committing evil on their own.

As for Europe 'giving' Israel WW2 to Jews to clear their consciences, there may be some truth to that, albeit minor. The fact is, Palestine was a British protectotate-- as were all the countries in the region (or French). In reality of course, the British also considered Amin Husseini's support of Hitler and his raising Muslim troops from Bosnia and even some Arab countries for the Axis. To say the British weren't happy may be a bit of an understatement. Couple that with Husseini's maniacal anti semitic rants and support of Hitler, I don't think it was too hatd for the Brits to go with the Balfour Declaration.

Like you, I would like to see people in the Middle East better off. But lets be realistic-- what does that mean? Two states or as Hamas, Jihad et al, say, only the eradication of Israel and Islamic state in it's place will suffice? Whom shall the Israelis negotiate with?

 

[researchok]

By the way, you made the remark, "You want the best for Israel and the hell with everyone else".

How do you know what I want? Where did I give you any indication of that?

You're making assumptions-- not where you want to be in an argument of logical progression.

In point of fact, I want whats best for all parties concerned-- especially the Palestinians.

Dealing in rhetoric won't solve anything. Until the Palestinians and Arabs in the region start dealing with reality and begin to fix their own house, you'r epoint is well taken-- there will be more bloodshed in the region.

And as history has shown, more Arabs will be killed by Arabs than by Israelis.

 

[moghrabi]

Israel is an occuping force and does not have the right to determine the fate of other people.

Lets face it. America is the mother of all evil. they support Israel's Massacres publicly while they talk about Saddam deed as evil. Are we in agreement that the Israel's are as bad as the other dictators. How about the crimes against humanity commited by western power including the US. Are these not counted or you only count the ones that come from the Arab states. How about the IRA, aren't they fighting for their own freedom? Are they terrorists?

I don't blame people like you that look at the picture from one side. You were educated here, Learned from your parents here, read books published here and the list goes on. You migh have visited the Middle East but I can honestly say you have no clue what is going on there.

I was educated here too. However, I have seen things you'll never imagine seeing. 9-11 will be pale in comparison. Let's put this issue behind and move on. You stated your side and I stated mine. Histroy will decide.

 

[moghrabi]

I am not dealing with rhetoric. I am dealing with facts. As for the impression of you supporting Israel is from your posts. You have not made one comment about the autrocities they commit. I might be wrong but this is my general feeling.

 

[researchok]

I am not dealing with rhetoric. I am dealing with facts. As for the impression of you supporting Israel is from your posts. You have not made one comment about the autrocities they commit. I might be wrong but this is my general feeling.

You are very much dealing with rhetoric.

You make unsubstantiated assertions and assume because you make them, they are correct or true. That is not always the case.

In point of fact, I do support Israel-- but I also support the Palestinians. Why on earth would you think that taking sides on Middle East issues is a zero sum game- thats it's an all or nothing proposition?

As to atrocities in the region, do you really want to get into the comparison game? Do you really want to go there?

 

[moghrabi]

I am not making assumptions and believing them. They are well documented and I will post later some of my sources. If you want to count autrocites go ahead. I am not counting heads, I am referring to the principle.

All of arab leaders along with Sharon and his predessors,Arafat, Bush, Blair and the rest of them must be sitting in the same court with Saddam answering questions about human right abuses and crimes against humanity. Why not Bush and his gang answer to their deeds. Why not Sharon be in the same hot seat?

 

[researchok]

Fair enough.

Let me know when you post them.

As for principles, 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone'.

What on earth would make you equate Bush, Blair, Sharon, etc with Saddam? Do you expect anyone to take that seriously?

If there is a court of justice, I submit that there are far greater evils in the region to be adjucated-- evils that have caised the deaths of many.

The west is not responsible for the slaughter of over a million Christians in Sudan. The west is not responsible for the GIA rape of children and other atrocities in Algeria. Nor are we responsible for the ongoing slave trade in Mauritania, the horrors of East Timor, the current tragedy in Darfur or Nigeria. Nor is the west responsible for the low standard of Arab education, as outlined in the recent UN report. Only sub Saharan Africa fared worse than the Arab world. Given that there atren't that many schools in sub Saharan Africa to begin with, that isn'y much of a distinction, being next to last.

What is interesting to me is that you don't really seem to care about that.

I'm not Jewish or Muslim or a practising Christian, so perhaps you could enlighten me as to why Israel is so special. Seems to me there are far greater problems in the region than Israel.

 

[moghrabi]

Points well taken. I have no more to say about the subject.

PS. The UN report is written, published, printed, and delivered in and by the United States of America.

We definetly have the opposite look at what is happening and I do respect your point of view and I hope you respect mine.

 

[moghrabi]

Maybe this link will help:

http://www.jatonyc.org/UNresolutions.html

 

[moghrabi]

Another interesting one here:

http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/geoff/UNresolutions.htm

 

[moghrabi]

Censored video of the Israeli army in action:

http://cbc.ca/clips/ram-lo/macdonald_censored020318.ram